Freemasonry, secret or not?

Originally posted by Dr Cosma

Ok thanks for that.
Its just that I read that they accepted no belief in a diety.
Why do you think they suddenly changed those rules?
Strange.

It changed back in the late 1800's. The Grand Orient of France was catching a lot of heat from the Roman Catholic Church, which considers Freemasonry to be a competitive religion (and at that time, most French Masons were Catholics).

A motion was adopted to remove all religious language and requirements from the Grand Orient in order to soften the Church's views about them. The plan actually backfired. Not only did the Grand Orient have its recognition withdrawn from its sister Grand Lodges, but the Church simply changed their criticism of the Grand Orient from "competitive religion" to "militant atheists". Sort of ironic.

Since that time, the Grand Orient of France has drifted even further from orthodox Masonry. Last year, they voted to allow women into membership.

reply to post by Dr Cosma


I was going to comment in your other thread about that, but I wasn't entirely sure. ML has the scoop on that. As for why they went against the main precepts of masonry, I have no earthly idea.

Masonic Light, is this the group that admits women as well?

reply to post by Masonic Light


see, that's why I love this place. I get to learn all sorts of things I didn't even know I wanted to know.

It's hard to find answers to questions you haven't asked yet.

Originally posted by network dude


Masonic Light, is this the group that admits women as well?

They voted to approve allowing women initiates last year. I don't know if this has been officially implemented yet, although they are in amity with the Le Droit Humaine Grand Lodge, which has been admitting women for a long time.

reply to post by Masonic Light


Thank you for that.
Yes I also read they accept women.

reply to post by network dude


Yep I have no idea why they would.
Anyway just was something that I was pondering about.
Thanks for the quick replies

Originally posted by Dr Cosma

Thank you for that.
Yes I also read they accept women.

Alas. The poor French bastards will be eaten alive by girl cooties.

reply to post by Masonic Light


I wonder, do they call them "brother junior deacon" or "sister junior deacon"?
Oh, I would be so confused.

Originally posted by Masonic Light

Originally posted by Dr Cosma

Thank you for that.
Yes I also read they accept women.

Alas. The poor French bastards will be eaten alive by girl cooties.

lol
second line.

reply to post by network dude


If memory serves, the office of Deacon is not found in the French Rite. Their rough equivalent to our Senior Deacon is called the Terrible Brother, or apparently now, the Terrible Sister.

Didn't Dee Snyder sing for that band?

Originally posted by italkyoulisten
I was asking him this because he claimed to be a 32nd degree Mason of the Scottish Rite, without specification of whether it was Northern or Southern Jurisdiction.

I'd wager 2/3 to 3/4 of the Masons on ATS are 32° Scottish Rite Masons, and we have members from both Northern and Southern Jurisdiction. (and a majority of those ATS Masons who are NOT 32° Scottish Rite live in countries where the Scottish Rite is not widely practiced, if at all... I think we've only got a few guys here who are York Rite or Shriner only, and a handful of Blue Lodge only members, but most of those are fairly newly raised, I believe.) We even have at least one active member who's a 33°, and received the honors within the past two years.

Was just asking to see what he may have encountered during his journey to discover esoteric knowledge via the Scottish Rite and if the Pike passages exalting Lucifer had any relevance to his experiences.

People inevitably bring the quote out of context, or cut off the end of the paragraph. Lucifer's not even mentioned in the degrees, and as Network Dude mentions, most biblical scholars acknowledge even the presence of the word "Lucifer" in the King James Bible is a mistranslation that really only exists in that edition (and those that follow that edition), and all leads back to Jerome and some personal conflicts he had with a rival at the time named Lucifer. Use the ATS search function for Asimov, Lucifer and you'll find a transcription I did from Isaac Asimov's guide to the Bible that really sheds light on the whole issue from a scholarly and historical perspective.

But back to Pike... a few pages after the "mysterious name" quote, he writes

It is by His uttered Word that God reveals Himself to us; not alone in the visible and invisible but intellectual creation, but also in our convictions, consciousness, and instincts. Hence it is that certain beliefs are universal. The conviction of all men that God is good led to a belief in a Devil, the fallen Lucifer or Light-bearer, Shaitan the Adversary, Ahriman and Tupho_n, as an attempt to explain the existence of Evil, and make it consistent with the Infinite Power, Wisdom, and Benevolence of God.

This is an area that Pike comes back to a few times in Morals & Dogma... that mankind's belief that evil must come from some force other than God is merely a false construct that men have used to try to explain why their creator might let bad thing happen to them. Personally, I think Pike's own beliefs are better held in the chapter 32,

Of that Equilibrium between Good and Evil, and Light and Darkness in the world, which assures us that all is the work of the Infinite Wisdom and of an Infinite Love; and that there is no rebellious demon of Evil, or Principle of Darkness co-existent and in eternal controversy with God, or the Principle of Light and of Good: by attaining to the knowledge of which equilibrium we can, through Faith, see that the existence of Evil, Sin, Suffering, and Sorrow in the world, is consistent with the Infinite Goodness as well as with the Infinite Wisdom of the Almighty.

Sympathy and Antipathy, Attraction and Repulsion, each a Force of nature, are contraries, in the souls of men and in the Universe of spheres and worlds; and from the action and opposition of each against the other, result Harmony, and that movement which is the Life of the Universe and the Soul alike. They are not antagonists of each other. The force that repels a Planet from the Sun is no more an evil force, than that which attracts the Planet toward the central Luminary; for each is created and exerted by the Deity, and the result is the harmonious movement of the obedient Planets in their elliptic orbits, and the mathematical accuracy and unvarying regularity of their movements.

Again, Pike believes there is no malevolent entity. Everything that happens, good or bad, is part of God's divine plan.

the only thing you need to know about freemasonry is that they're obsessed with rebuilding the temple of solomon

reply to post by TheDolphinSings


while I believe the Temple was rebuilt once after it was destroyed, I was not aware of a continued effort to rebuild it. Where did you hear this?

reply to post by JoshNorton


Well the question then becomes is "Lucifer" in the King James Bible really a mistranslation or was it purposefully used by the translator/writer Sir Frances Bacon who was a high level member of the Freemasonic and Rosicrucian orders?

Originally posted by TheDolphinSings
the only thing you need to know about freemasonry is that they're obsessed with rebuilding the temple of solomon

Temple Solmon Represent Human Body do the research you will know,they want to bring back Humanity to its final Glory instead of that they think it is the Temple they have to build,so out of mind is any one in the Freemasons know what their purpose you have been manipulated all day.
All their Masculine SIRIUS - THE DOG STAR energy secrets control agenda will be revealed by coming of Feminine Energy,Watch Out keep your eyes Open you are no more a Secret.

reply to post by TheDolphinSings

According to whom or what? Its been made very clear that we are not.

Originally posted by TheDolphinSings
the only thing you need to know about freemasonry is that they're obsessed with rebuilding the temple of solomon

What about the members who are Islamic? Seem like ti would conflict with their beliefs fairly heavily.

Well the question then becomes is "Lucifer" in the King James Bible really a mistranslation or was it purposefully used by the translator/writer Sir Frances Bacon who was a high level member of the Freemasonic and Rosicrucian orders?

Er... The translation error was due to St. Jerome, a thousand years earlier than Sir Bacon.
As far as I can tell, the translation of the KJV Bible was done by six committees from Cambridge, Oxford, and Westminster, and was overseen by Archbishop Richard Bancroft. Of the 54 approved, 47 actually worked on the translation. Francis Bacon's names is not listed.
Also, previous to the 1717 opening of the Grand Lodge, Freemasonry was predominantly unorganized, really only having three degrees.
That is of course if Bacon truly was a member, there's some circumstantial evidence he was a member of the Rosicrucian, or at least attended their meetings, none of the similar for Freemasons.

now, if you'll excuse me, all this talk of Bacon is making me hungry.

Originally posted by RuneSpider

Originally posted by TheDolphinSings
the only thing you need to know about freemasonry is that they're obsessed with rebuilding the temple of solomon

What about the members who are Islamic? Seem like ti would conflict with their beliefs fairly heavily.

I don't think it's the Freemasons who want to literally rebuild Solomon's Temple, but rather the Zionist Jews.

The Freemasons are more concerned with "weeping" the death of "Hiram Abiff," and the rebuilt Solomon's Temple is merely a symbol for the erect penis, with the Qodesh ha-Kodashim representing the head.

Originally posted by italkyoulisten
Well the question then becomes is "Lucifer" in the King James Bible really a mistranslation or was it purposefully used by the translator/writer Sir Frances Bacon who was a high level member of the Freemasonic and Rosicrucian orders?

The word "Lucifer" was used in the Latin Bible, which predates Sir Francis Bacon by 1000 years. It was probably first used in Dante's Inferno to refer to the Devil, in a way which is consistent with other morning star legends throughout the Middle East.

Also, previous to the 1717 opening of the Grand Lodge, Freemasonry was predominantly unorganized, really only having three degrees.

The third degree was added in 1721, to so much protest that a split developed in the Grand Lodge of England 30 years later until the mid-1800's.

That is of course if Bacon truly was a member, there's some circumstantial evidence he was a member of the Rosicrucian, or at least attended their meetings, none of the similar for Freemasons.

Sir Francis Bacon created the Invisible College which is said to be a forerunner of the modern Rosicrucian order.

Originally posted by Dr Cosma
reply to post by network dude

 

A question.

What is the position of the UGLE on the Grand Orient of France?

The UGLE ("blue Masonry") and the GOdF ("red Masonry") are rival institutions.

The UGLE created the Grand Lodge of France when the GOdF refused to join forces. They also blacklisted the Supreme Council of the State of Louisiana for raising black Masons (the lodge was subsequently recognized by the GOdF until it was dissolved).

The GOdF are active outside of England and the US, and its members have created revolutionary groups such as the Jacobins, the International Workers of The World, the Bolsheviks and the Bolivarians. Salvador Allende and Augusto Pinochet (the man who executed a CIA-funded coup against him) were both French Lodge Freemasons, as were Toussaint L'Ouverture, Fidel Castro and Vladimir Lenin.

There is a Droit Humain French lodge in Israel.

The first Grand Lodge of Tokyo, whose members became the statesmen that modernized Japan, is an English lodge.

UGLE apologists claim that true Freemasons don't engage in political action, and that members under the jurisdiction of the GOdF are merely "irregular" Masons. The GOdF counters by claiming that true religious freedom includes the ability to be an atheist, and that true equality includes abandoning the elitist and racial practices which are characteristic of English Freemasonry. However, for military campaigns such as World War I, they manage to put their differences aside.

The Jesuits have had a hand in creating the York Rite degrees, the Scottish Rite degrees and the degrees for French Masonry. As a model they used the six degrees of the Ramsay Rite, created by Chevalier Ramsay, who was a Scottish Presbyterian living in France.

reply to post by vcwxvwligen


you know what? you piss me off. Not because you come here with the same old anti masonry crap, but because you have real knowledge and a real opinion behind all that stupid fundie crap. You don't have to like masonry, or even believe what it's about, but you are obviously interested in it. Why don't you take a different position and speak intelligently on this subject all the time?