Freemasonry, secret or not?

reply to post by RuneSpider


I've done martial arts lol
Dont compare freemasonry to martial arts, I have heard it all now on this thread!

reply to post by Dr Cosma


I used to practice a style of kung fu, where the master would only present to you the next form when you had mastered the previous. The next form was kept secret from you until you were prepared for it, at which point he would train you.
We trained in a building with doors that faced away from the road, so outsiders could not see in, you had to approach the school and walk in to start to learn.

In martial arts, I've found a community of philosophers, similar in many ways to the Masons I've met through ATS and other places.

reply to post by RuneSpider


Here in Europe, football (soccer) is considered religion lol by the fans.
The football community has it's philosopher's too I asure you.
The teams have their own secrets, as in tactics.

But come on! Are we going to compare it to freemasonry?

Please.

reply to post by Dr Cosma


I am comparing the experiences I've had in the different martial art schools I've been to, to the experiences I've seen related and methodologies used in Masonry.

I'm sure that football has it's own Laotzus, Shaolins, ect.

Masons have many times stated there are multiple paths, Masonry of which it is but one of them.


There are different approaches for it. The kung fu, or wushu, school I studied at was not like many of the tae kwan do or karate schools I've been to, though the end result was intended to be much the same

reply to post by vcwxvwligen


And that would be the knee jerk reaction I was speaking of. Already, without even knowing who I am, what I know, and who I know, you already claim that I haven't done my research. Now with that said, I don't claim that all societies are benevolent or even that every individual/individuals are for the betterment of mankind, but to say with utter disregard for reason, that an entire group of individuals are out to get you I would say is foolish and is a irational thought.

Now I will kindly remove myself from the pissing match that has ensued in this room

Originally posted by network dude

Originally posted by vcwxvwligen
Truman was raised to the 33rd degree in 1945, and also became the Grand Master of Missouri.
Barack Obama is a known Prince Hall Mason as well as a Rosicrucian.

OK, I'll get to some of your other mistakes here in a minute, but this is outright BS. Obama is not a mason of any sort. Never has been. Prince Hall masonry would have been singing that information form the highest mountains and I suspect most of regular masonry as well. EIther prove it, or remove it from your arsenal of drive by slander.

I hear that at these types of celebrations they do a lot of singing: www.thebulletin.us...

Wow, so calling Barack Obama a Freemason has become slanderous ... to Freemasonry perhaps?

Originally posted by vcwxvwligen

I hear that at these types of celebrations they do a lot of singing: www.thebulletin.us...

Wow, so calling Barack Obama a Freemason has become slanderous ... to Freemasonry perhaps?

Respecting and Honoring the U.S. President in Toasts, Balls, etc. has a long Tradition in Freemasonry. Slandering Presidents has a long Tradition among Conspiracy-Theorists.

Originally posted by network dude

lets look at your evidence

"The Bible is an indispensable part of the furniture of a Christian Lodge, only because it is the sacred book of the Christian religion. The Hebrew Pentateuch in a Hebrew Lodge, and the Koran in a Mohammedan one, belong on the altar; and one of these, and the Square and Compass, properly understood, are the Great Lights by which a Mason must walk and work. (p.11)

Yes, the Bible is exactly that, it is also our rule and guide of faith. As taught in the first, second, and third degree. (BTW nice source, biased much?)

Is the Bible a rule and guide for Hebrew and Mohammedans?

"The doctrines of the Bible are often not clothed in the language of strict truth, but in that which was fittest to convey to a rude and ignorant people the practical essentials of the doctrine." (p.224)

read that again a few times and think about what it means. (hint, I think they meant YOU)

It seems like the Freemasons can't let one argument go by without slipping in a personal attack. People like you only elevate its prestige and respectability.

"Every Masonic Lodge is a temple of religion; and its teachings are instruction in religion." (p.213)

please note the key words here, "OF" and "IN" they have a reason for being there. Look up grammar to see why.

The reason why is that he's stating that the Masonic lodge is a religious temple whose teachings are religious instruction.
I've spent a lot of my life "looking up grammar," thank you very much.

"Masonry is a worship; but one in which all civilized men can unite;" (p.526)

exactly, so what's wrong with that? Men of differnt faiths can worship their creator in harmony. You are just pissed that nobody is giving you 10% to do it.

That's called "religious indifference" which only waters down Christianity to a set of meaningless, hypocritical gestures. You're just as well moving to San Francisco and becoming a wiccan.

"Masonry is a search after Light. That search leads us directly back, as you see, to the Kabalah." (p.741)

ritualabusefree.org...

Again, super source for all this terrific information. I don't suppose you ever ventured out of your little box of fundamentalist loonacy and checked any of the rest of those quotes that are so badly taken out of context have you? Of course not, as that would negate them as evidence. Well, it has been so nice to see you, I guess you will be back in a few months to spread the same fertalizer.

The same "fertalizer" that the Masons use to spread brotherly affections, no doubt.

p. 321

The Apocalypse is, to those who receive the nineteenth Degree, the Apothesis of that Sublime Faith which aspires to God alone, and despises all the pomps and works of Lucifer. LUCIFER, the Light-bearer! Strange and mysterious name to give to the Spirit of Darknesss! Lucifer, the Son of the Morning! Is it he who bears the Light, and with its splendors intolerable blinds feeble, sensual or selfish Souls ? Doubt it not! for traditions are full of Divine Revelations and Inspirations: and Inspiration is not of one Age nor of one Creed. Plato and Philo, also, were inspired.

www.freemasons-freemasonry.com...
www.sacred-texts.com...
I'd be happy to translate if that passage is a bit weighty for you.

Originally posted by Skyfloating

Originally posted by vcwxvwligen

I hear that at these types of celebrations they do a lot of singing: www.thebulletin.us...

Wow, so calling Barack Obama a Freemason has become slanderous ... to Freemasonry perhaps?

Respecting and Honoring the U.S. President in Toasts, Balls, etc. has a long Tradition in Freemasonry. Slandering Presidents has a long Tradition among Conspiracy-Theorists.

Kinda conflicts with their pledge not to get involved in politics

Why would it be slanderous to call Barack Obama a Freemason? You should be proud!

Originally posted by vcwxvwligen

Kinda conflicts with their pledge not to get involved in politics

Have you ever spoken a toast in honor of someone, dead or alive? Has nothing to do with politics.

Originally posted by vcwxvwligen

Originally posted by network dude

lets look at your evidence

"The Bible is an indispensable part of the furniture of a Christian Lodge, only because it is the sacred book of the Christian religion. The Hebrew Pentateuch in a Hebrew Lodge, and the Koran in a Mohammedan one, belong on the altar; and one of these, and the Square and Compass, properly understood, are the Great Lights by which a Mason must walk and work. (p.11)

Yes, the Bible is exactly that, it is also our rule and guide of faith. As taught in the first, second, and third degree. (BTW nice source, biased much?)

Is the Bible a rule and guide for Hebrew and Mohammedans?

I don't know, I am a Christian. But that is what masonry teaches. And I would assume in areas that have more "Mohammedans" or Muslims than Christians, they would feel the same way about the Quaran. But not being Muslim, I can only guess.

"Masonry is a worship; but one in which all civilized men can unite;" (p.526)
exactly, so what's wrong with that? Men of differnt faiths can worship their creator in harmony. You are just pissed that nobody is giving you 10% to do it.

That's called "religious indifference" which only waters down Christianity to a set of meaningless, hypocritical gestures. You're just as well moving to San Francisco and becoming a wiccan.

no, but if a Wiccan was to live in San Fran and thought that he knew the way to salvation, It wouldn't be my place to tell him he was wrong. How about you?

"Masonry is a search after Light. That search leads us directly back, as you see, to the Kabalah." (p.741)

ritualabusefree.org...


Again, super source for all this terrific information. I don't suppose you ever ventured out of your little box of fundamentalist loonacy and checked any of the rest of those quotes that are so badly taken out of context have you? Of course not, as that would negate them as evidence. Well, it has been so nice to see you, I guess you will be back in a few months to spread the same fertalizer.
The same "fertalizer" that the Masons use to spread brotherly affections, no doubt.

p. 321

The Apocalypse is, to those who receive the nineteenth Degree, the Apothesis of that Sublime Faith which aspires to God alone, and despises all the pomps and works of Lucifer. LUCIFER, the Light-bearer! Strange and mysterious name to give to the Spirit of Darknesss! Lucifer, the Son of the Morning! Is it he who bears the Light, and with its splendors intolerable blinds feeble, sensual or selfish Souls ? Doubt it not! for traditions are full of Divine Revelations and Inspirations: and Inspiration is not of one Age nor of one Creed. Plato and Philo, also, were inspired.

www.freemasons-freemasonry.com...
www.sacred-texts.com...
I'd be happy to translate if that passage is a bit weighty for you.

Lets do that. "that Sublime Faith which aspires to God alone" - sounds like Mr. Pike believes in one monotheistic creator. Who would have thought?
"and despises all the pomps and works of Lucifer" - Being that the uninformed consider 'Lucifer' to be the devil, he is making the point that he despises him, but of course goes on to explain to the uninformed what 'Lucifer' really is besides a mistranslation, lets read on...

" LUCIFER, the Light-bearer! Strange and mysterious name to give to the Spirit of Darknesss! " - I dare say he is pointing out the savage hippocricy of this statement.



Didn't the Bible also refer to Jesus Christ as the light bearer and son of the morning? Oops, now you are bordering on Blasphemy. Better run off to your church and ask them what to do next.

again, by your logic:

Lucifer = light bearer= son of the morning= Satan

Jesus Christ= light bearer= son of the morning= Oh Nos! run for your lives!!!

Mistranslation being brought to light. And a hold out tactic for ridicule by none other than the fanatical whacked out cult following of the Born again boneheads.

Originally posted by Dr Cosma
reply to post by network dude

 

I put up that video because of the mason ring, not the zionist claims or whatever, I have not done research enough on that to comment.

Yes you could say that is another black mans hand, but it looks like his hand with the same backround.
It is interesting on those grounds for me.
There is another video of him and it shows the masonic handshake, of cos you could dismiss it and say it's not the masonic handshake, but to me it's clear.

If I was a detective, I would have to conclude that right now the evidence points to Obama being a freemason, no?

edit on 14-11-2010 by Dr Cosma because: (no reason given)

If your evidence is that Obama wears a masonic ring, then of all the pictures of Mr. President, you can find me at least one showing his head, and hand, and ring all in the same picture right? Otherwise, no.

Originally posted by Skyfloating

Originally posted by vcwxvwligen

Kinda conflicts with their pledge not to get involved in politics

Have you ever spoken a toast in honor of someone, dead or alive? Has nothing to do with politics.

I'm sure they held the celebration for him because he had become president, not because he's just an awesome guy in general.

Originally posted by vcwxvwligen

I'm sure they held the celebration for him because he had become president, not because he's just an awesome guy in general.

You are sure about a great many things young man. Reading your posts here since a long time I always wondered:

Is there anything he is not sure about?

What does humility mean to you?

Originally posted by network dude

Originally posted by vcwxvwligen
"The Bible is an indispensable part of the furniture of a Christian Lodge, only because it is the sacred book of the Christian religion. The Hebrew Pentateuch in a Hebrew Lodge, and the Koran in a Mohammedan one, belong on the altar; and one of these, and the Square and Compass, properly understood, are the Great Lights by which a Mason must walk and work. (p.11)

Yes, the Bible is exactly that, it is also our rule and guide of faith. As taught in the first, second, and third degree. (BTW nice source, biased much?)

Is the Bible a rule and guide for Hebrew and Mohammedans?

I don't know, I am a Christian. But that is what masonry teaches. And I would assume in areas that have more "Mohammedans" or Muslims than Christians, they would feel the same way about the Quaran. But not being Muslim, I can only guess.

Well, Freemasonry teaches that they are all taking different paths to the same god. Notwithstanding a few fringe exceptions, Jews and Muslims generally do not believe in Jesus Christ in the same way that Christians believe in him. In fact, the Qur'an has more to say about the Virgin Mary than the Bible does.

"Masonry is a worship; but one in which all civilized men can unite;" (p.526)

exactly, so what's wrong with that? Men of differnt faiths can worship their creator in harmony. You are just pissed that nobody is giving you 10% to do it.

That's called "religious indifference" which only waters down Christianity to a set of meaningless, hypocritical gestures. You're just as well moving to San Francisco and becoming a wiccan.

no, but if a Wiccan was to live in San Fran and thought that he knew the way to salvation, It wouldn't be my place to tell him he was wrong. How about you?

That's fine, but it's not Christian.

"Masonry is a search after Light. That search leads us directly back, as you see, to the Kabalah." (p.741)

ritualabusefree.org...

Again, super source for all this terrific information. I don't suppose you ever ventured out of your little box of fundamentalist loonacy and checked any of the rest of those quotes that are so badly taken out of context have you? Of course not, as that would negate them as evidence. Well, it has been so nice to see you, I guess you will be back in a few months to spread the same fertalizer.

The same "fertalizer" that the Masons use to spread brotherly affections, no doubt.

p. 321

The Apocalypse is, to those who receive the nineteenth Degree, the Apothesis of that Sublime Faith which aspires to God alone, and despises all the pomps and works of Lucifer. LUCIFER, the Light-bearer! Strange and mysterious name to give to the Spirit of Darknesss! Lucifer, the Son of the Morning! Is it he who bears the Light, and with its splendors intolerable blinds feeble, sensual or selfish Souls ? Doubt it not! for traditions are full of Divine Revelations and Inspirations: and Inspiration is not of one Age nor of one Creed. Plato and Philo, also, were inspired.

www.freemasons-freemasonry.com...
www.sacred-texts.com...
I'd be happy to translate if that passage is a bit weighty for you.

Lets do that. "that Sublime Faith which aspires to God alone" - sounds like Mr. Pike believes in one monotheistic creator. Who would have thought?

I think you confused the word "aspire" with "admire."

"and despises all the pomps and works of Lucifer" - Being that the uninformed consider 'Lucifer' to be the devil, he is making the point that he despises him, but of course goes on to explain to the uninformed what 'Lucifer' really is besides a mistranslation, lets read on...

" LUCIFER, the Light-bearer! Strange and mysterious name to give to the Spirit of Darknesss! " - I dare say he is pointing out the savage hippocricy of this statement.

It's more irony than hipocrisy. He's saying that Lucifer is not an accurate name to give to the Spirit of Darkness, seeing that he is worthy of praise.

Didn't the Bible also refer to Jesus Christ as the light bearer and son of the morning? Oops, now you are bordering on Blasphemy. Better run off to your church and ask them what to do next.

That's more a dilemma for all of the so-called Christian Masons.

again, by your logic:

Lucifer = light bearer= son of the morning= Satan

Jesus Christ= light bearer= son of the morning= Oh Nos! run for your lives!!!

Mistranslation being brought to light. And a hold out tactic for ridicule by none other than the fanatical whacked out cult following of the Born again boneheads.

Actually, that is not my logic.

Jesus Christ was not called the light bearer or the son of the morning. He was called the Morning Star. Let's remember that the New Testament was written in a combination of Greek and Aramaic. It's only in Latin translations where the word "lucifer" is used -- and in the lowercase. The name Lucifer with a capital letter does NOT refer to Jesus Christ in the Book of Isaiah.

Originally posted by Skyfloating

Originally posted by vcwxvwligen

I'm sure they held the celebration for him because he had become president, not because he's just an awesome guy in general.

You are sure about a great many things young man. Reading your posts here since a long time I always wondered:

Is there anything he is not sure about?

What does humility mean to you?

Not strong in the humor department, I see.

reply to post by vcwxvwligen


I assume you think some angel in heaven is going to bestow you with a medal for exposing "the evil Kingdom" or something of that matter. I guess its the intention that counts, even if its misguided.

Originally posted by vcwxvwligen
It's more irony than hipocrisy. He's saying that Lucifer is not an accurate name to give to the Spirit of Darkness, seeing that he is worthy of praise.

can you show me where anyone in masonry claims that Lucifer is worthy of praise? Other than the Taxil hoax of coarse.

Jesus Christ was not called the light bearer or the son of the morning. He was called the Morning Star. Let's remember that the New Testament was written in a combination of Greek and Aramaic. It's only in Latin translations where the word "lucifer" is used -- and in the lowercase. The name Lucifer with a capital letter does NOT refer to Jesus Christ in the Book of Isaiah.

link to source

Isaiah 14:12 How art thou fallen from heaven, O Lucifer, son of the morning! how art thou cut down to the ground, which didst weaken the nations!

How you have fallen from heaven, O morning star, son of the dawn! You have been cast down to the earth, you who once laid low the nations!

"I, Jesus, have sent my angel to give you [1] this testimony for the churches. I am the Root and the Offspring of David, and the bright Morning Star."

now what were we talking about? Oh yea, about A guy who was a mason named Pike. Not the leader of masonry, but a man who did a lot for masonry. But Jesus Christ is the foundation to everything you believe in. While I also believe Jesus is the son of God, I have a bit more flexibility in that I don't feel it my duty to convert everyone who believes differently. I feel that as long as people believe in God or in a creator, the are of the same mindset that I am. And the ones who believe differently, have every right to do that. I hope that they find happiness in whatever they chose to believe. I have only me to contend with when it comes to my beliefs so if I go to hell, it's my own damn fault. I hope I don't. And I hope you don't. I hope that somewhere along the line, you find a bit of acceptance for things that are different. You don't have to like them, or believe in them, but to tolerate them is only being human.

Originally posted by vcwxvwligen
Albert Pike wasn't just a 33rd Mason

- He was the head of all Masonry in North America

Wrong. He was the head of the Scottish Rite in the Southern Jurisdiction. He was not even the head of an entire appendant orginization of Masonry.

- He rewrote the rituals for the Scottish Rite

Which are frequently rewritten to this day.

- His private collection of books (many of which were discussions of the occult) was used to create America's first public library.

Wrong. There are factual references which place the United State's first public libraries in the 18th Century. How did he do this, with a time machine?

- He's one of only a handful of men to have a statue in Washington, DC.

By handful, did you mean close to one hundred?

Aleister Crowley was good friends with the people who drew the first Masonic tracing boards. The OTO was started by three Freemasons, and would only allow Master Masons as members.

Really? Did he use Pike's time machine to do this? Masonic tracing boards have been around since the 18th Century.

Wrong again.

Do think when you post here people are not going to check your shabby 'facts'?

reply to post by AugustusMasonicus


A question.
Do you think that the jesuit order infiltrated freemasonry at some point in history?