Depression is NOT a Real Disorder

Originally posted by venik88
What's incomprehensible about your posts? For one you refuse to address our arguments, instead you say we're ignorant and you drone about the same talking points you've been saying the entire thread. Seemingly expecting us to suddenly buy it.

Will you please drop the belligerence? Jesus Christ. A moderator has already said that this needs to end. This is not a political discussion, so stop treating it like one. You don't need to come in here and attack people using argumentative tones like the one I have quoted.

This is a personal discussion about a personal issue. Treat it with a little more care and sensitivity, will you? If that's too much to ask, you're free to not respond to the people who bring this sort of tone out of you, or simply not post in the thread altogether.

reply to post by virraszto



Change your perception and you'll see
"most" people are respectful to other points of view and are simply having a discussion...

Have you considered that the fact you said you haven't "mustered" enough________
has a connection in how you just aren't able to________?

Just a thought.
I've never said depression wasn't real.
Whatever the case a (mental) feeling can manifest into the physical.
They go together.

The thing about menstruation....I understand your point.
However PMS doesn't give the person who is experiencing it the right to lash out
at people just because their emotional state is heightened or compromised.

A painful experience doesn't have to be stressful, does it?
Or is it due to a lack of control?

Have you been diagnosed for a chemical imbalance that stimulates SAD?
It sounded as if you weren't sure.

Only in America does the pharmacutical industry have the money to do the research and development of the new drugs that can ameliorate the incredibly complex conditions of modern illness. Call it a condition, call it dis-ease, call it whatever you want, but it's all suffering. Look how many died before penicillin, before the Polio vaccine, before heart drugs, cholesterol drugs, smallpox vaccines, pueumonia vaccines, bone marrow transplants, and on an on. Now that the human genome has been cracked, errors in genetic material are being discovered that allow future therapies to be developed. Look at all the disease resulting from problems in our internal organs. Our brains are exponentially more complex than our internal organs, so why is it so hard to understand that tiny genetic errors are likely behind conditions that originate in our brains. The brain and the mind are two totally different things, and if you don't think that problems inside the brain influence our minds, you better start again with Science 101. Sure, behavior and attitudes, and even narrow mindedness are part of the picture of mental illness, but these kinds of problems are a totality of the human entity. I'm a tough mf, physically and mentally strong-willed. I worked every day of my adult life, but at age 49 I broke. I have a family history of mental illness through my Mother and Aunt. I don't expect to convince any of the nay-sayers of anything, but I know in my mind and heart that these diseases ARE related to genetic pre-disposition, behavior, and attitudes. I wasn't fated to get anything, but I was vulnerable due to a pre-disposition because of genetic error. Some families have heart attacks, some have strokes, or colon cancer, or diabetes, or other diseases. It's pure science, and it's a shame that so many are scientifically ignorant.

Originally posted by deadred
Only in America does the pharmacutical industry have the money to do the research and development of the new drugs that can ameliorate the incredibly complex conditions of modern illness.

While this is true to some extent the amelioration of a mental illness can also be done
using the brain and our mind.

Originally posted by deadredCall it a condition, call it dis-ease, call it whatever you want, but it's all suffering. Look how many died before penicillin, before the Polio vaccine, before heart drugs, cholesterol drugs, smallpox vaccines, pueumonia vaccines, bone marrow transplants, and on an on.

Those deaths were physical and I don't see how they pertain to a depressed state of mind?
Since we both know all people aren't the same and some cannot be cured via medicinal methods
wouldn't you classify medicine as insufficient and/or limited in its core purpose to cure/alleviate?

Originally posted by deadredWhy is it so hard to understand that tiny genetic errors are likely behind conditions that originate in our brains.

It isn't hard to understand and I whole-heartedly agree with that.
Are you generalising without identifying who you're talking to (specifically) ?

Originally posted by deadredThe brain and the mind are two totally different things, and if you don't think that problems inside the brain influence our minds, you better start again with Science 101.

Ah...I see. But do you see?

-The brain allows you to think, handle emotions, and make judgments.
-The front of the brain is the center for emotions and reasoning. This is where personality comes from.

While the brain and the mind are different...they are collective (in my opinion)
and as you said: the brain influences our minds...The kicker most people are unaware of is:
The mind can influence the brain.

Originally posted by deadredI'm a tough mf, physically and mentally strong-willed. I worked every day of my adult life, but at age 49 I broke. I have a family history of mental illness through my Mother and Aunt. I don't expect to convince any of the nay-sayers of anything, but I know in my mind and heart that these diseases ARE related to genetic pre-disposition, behavior, and attitudes. I wasn't fated to get anything, but I was vulnerable due to a pre-disposition because of genetic error. Some families have heart attacks, some have strokes, or colon cancer, or diabetes, or other diseases. It's pure science, and it's a shame that so many are scientifically ignorant.

My entire lineage are genetically predisposed to being a multitude of classifications...
The questions I ask you: Do you want to break the cycle? Can you? Are you able to?

This is where your "pure Science" opinion has no bearing in my mind.
In fact it is because of my limitless mind, and openness of it that has allowed me
to exponentially learn of myself and grow from this knowledge that puts me where I am today...
(mentally speaking) of course.

Science alone cannot explain everything in their uncompressed form. (Fact)
I'm well aware of Scientific theory and the advancements due to the inherent pragmatic approach
these theories are comprised of. Using factual evidence coupled to theories
(while intelligent and well formed) are not the pinnacle's of life as most think of them to be.

The front of the brain is NOT responsible for our emotions! Ever heard of the Limbic System? Ever heard of the Amygdyla? Ever heard of the Temporal Lobes? Emotions are a complex synthesis of several parts of our brain. The Frontal Lobe is the seat of direction, but what if you have scarring here because of a car accident of a head injury from football or falling on your head somewhere? I'm saying mental illness is a result of physical problems in the brain, our attitudes, our misperceptions, and the lack of understanding of our own emotions. This is proven by Scientific research. I'm in no way attacking you or your post, just saying you might want to look past your own preconceptions and do a bit of study on this subject.

Originally posted by deadred
The front of the brain is NOT responsible for our emotions! Ever heard of the Limbic System? Ever heard of the Amygdyla? Ever heard of the Temporal Lobes? Emotions are a complex synthesis of several parts of our brain. The Frontal Lobe is the seat of direction, but what if you have scarring here because of a car accident of a head injury from football or falling on your head somewhere? I'm saying mental illness is a result of physical problems in the brain, our attitudes, our misperceptions, and the lack of understanding of our own emotions. This is proven by Scientific research. I'm in no way attacking you or your post, just saying you might want to look past your own preconceptions and do a bit of study on this subject.

Good to see some sense being reintroduced to the thread.

/ranton

I myself have been diagnosed for 20 years and I'm still plagued by stays in hospital and medications being changed "for my own good", both of which turn my life upside down and make it difficult for me to maintain any sort or normality in my life. It sickens me that so many people have so many opinions about depression, but know so little about it and/or have never experienced it. I'd love to see them live a day in my life as I know they wouldn't survive it.

/rantoff

Rev

Originally posted by deadred
The front of the brain is NOT responsible for our emotions!

I openly admit I haven't the anatomical knowledge of the brain
nor have I had the need to study it, however I'd like to thank you for this post!
(Now I will)

www.healing-arts.org...

This link for example states something pretty interesting...
I noted non-conclusive evidence but rather "theories" purported to fit symptoms...
Do you have any links or reading material available that proves otherwise
your position?

Originally posted by deadredThe Frontal Lobe is the seat of direction, but what if you have scarring here because of a car accident of a head injury from football or falling on your head somewhere? I'm saying mental illness is a result of physical problems in the brain, our attitudes, our misperceptions, and the lack of understanding of our own emotions. This is proven by Scientific research. I'm in no way attacking you or your post, just saying you might want to look past your own preconceptions and do a bit of study on this subject.

No attack was interpreted at all...
Actually in order to grow..In a sense one's ideas must be attacked
and shown for what they are so that the person can learn more from it just as I've
learned much more than I previously had known prior to your post, so thank you very much
for this enlightening reality check...

Can the scarring or damage be caused by a psychological based trauma as well?
Science is truly a wonderful thing and I've never disputed the veracity of the
Scientific community IF their goal was in the people's best interest.

Sadly "Scientists" have lied to us all in some form or another and this is my issue with
Science based studies. Are we told all that we need to? Or just enough to find out
why we have problems...only to have zero solutions that unequivocally work without
causing a new illness in the process?

Originally posted by revmoofoo
I myself have been diagnosed for 20 years and I'm still plagued by stays in hospital and medications being changed "for my own good", both of which turn my life upside down and make it difficult for me to maintain any sort or normality in my life.

You and me both sir. The meds didn't resolve anything.
What they did do was numb the pain, and I could even then...still feel it eating away-slowly.

Originally posted by deadredIt sickens me that so many people have so many opinions about depression, but know so little about it and/or have never experienced it.

So, I am discredited because I didn't know the basic anatomy and structural composition of the human brain?

While I've suffered through many (Dr. Proclaimed) mental illnesses, yet you are ironically
have an opinion about me, yet you haven't ANY knowledge of what I've been through...
Why is that?

Originally posted by deadredI'd love to see them live a day in my life as I know they wouldn't survive it.

You know...if I was angry at people, and felt self entitled to position myself say in a different
realm altogether in order to prop up my illness as something exponentially worse
than any other person's perceptions of their own life....I too would be able to say to you
you could never have lived a nanosecond of my life...

See how that works?
(It doesn't work)

reply to post by Hefficide

Some people are born with 2 fingers on one hand also. But as time goes on you learn to overcome such things. Prescription medication especially those for depression is the furthest thing from natural that you could put into your body on a daily basis. So instead of dealing with those problems in your mind you merely mask that problem, and you are never really you. We rely on the government to tell us what is best for us, the police to protect us, the courts to take care of our problems, and pills to aid us in coping with life.
Let me know if any of this sounds incorrect.

reply to post by Chinesis


I tend to stay away from subjects like these mostly. Once I figured out how to overcome things without putting pharmacuticals into my body, I was pretty excited really. I used to be part of depression groups, and suicide prevention groups etc etc, trying to let other people in on the secret. Rather than listen, people took it like I was personally attacking them, or trolling, or implying I was stronger; all kinds of crazy accusations. Really, what would one possibly gain from that, then again I never really did understand the point of trolling at all. I still don't to this day lol.

Originally posted by riboflavin
reply to post by Hefficide

 

Some people are born with 2 fingers on one hand also. But as time goes on you learn to overcome such things. Prescription medication especially those for depression is the furthest thing from natural that you could put into your body on a daily basis. So instead of dealing with those problems in your mind you merely mask that problem, and you are never really you. We rely on the government to tell us what is best for us, the police to protect us, the courts to take care of our problems, and pills to aid us in coping with life.
Let me know if any of this sounds incorrect.

I see this as an apples to oranges comparison, though I do understand the intent. A person with only two fingers upon one hand would be considered to have a diminished ability, compared to those with five fingers. A disadvantage in the ability to grasp or manipulate objects. Disability and illness are not necessarily comparable here. Illnesses often cannot simply be "overcome" by the power of positive thinking. Positivity is definitely a good thing, no matter what the illness. But it most certainly doesn't constitute a cure.

As for medications being the furthest thing from natural that one can put into ones body... I disagree with this point. I do so speaking as a person who does not take maintenance medication at all. The only medication I take is an anti-anxiety drug when I have panic attacks, which is not that often. But understand a key point here. If a person without anxiety were to take my medication, they would probably feel euphoric. They would get high. When I take my medication, during a panic attack, I am not effected in this manner. I do not get high. I simply get back to feeling close to normal. And that is all I hope for from the pills. To have a chance at feeling normal.

I disagree with the notion that people taking anti depressants and anti anxiety agents are "masking" their problems. If I had a bad back and chose to take narcotics rather than having surgery to resolve the problem, I would agree with this assessment. If there were a surgical fix, then it is the wise decision to make. While there have been "surgical fixes" to psychiatric problems, I don't think that anyone would expect people to entertain frontal lobotomy or electro-convulsive therapy as an option. These are quite permanent ways to make sure that one is "never really you" again.

And as for the idea that I've never dealt with the underlying issues of my problem, I can assure you that after years upon years of talk therapy my most recent therapist literally asked me why I bothered coming and said I was the most "self-actualized" person she'd ever known. My answer was simple... Therapy was a requisite condition, of my doctors, for supplying me with the necessary anxiety medication.

Please allow me to explain, before we go further, why this medication is necessary in my life. Let me explain the reality of what an anxiety/panic attack is, or at least how it is for me, as I have found that this is often a very misunderstood thing. When I have an attack it is not simply a matter of feeling agitated or nervous. In fact calling it an anxiety attack is somewhat of a misnomer as most of it has nothing to do with feeling anxious. For me I start having chest pains, usually, or one side of my body will go numb. This can happen at any time, regardless of external stimulus or personal mood. In fact I had to be rushed to the emergency room on my 37th or 38th birthday party because of such chest pains. In short, I have very real physical symptoms of either heart attack or stroke. Not imagined symptoms. Not hypochondria. Real physical discomfort or pain.

This is where it gets complicated. I am aware that I have panic attacks, as these pains begin. So I try to calm myself by understanding that panic attacks can effect me in this manner. Only this realization does not stop the physical discomforts at all. So I sit and wait. As I wait, I weigh realities and options. On the one hand, it's probably anxiety. On the other hand I did have quite a cardiac history (as discussed a few pages back) and it could quite possibly be a real life threatening emergency. It is unbelievably humiliating (and expensive) to show up in an emergency room only to be told that there is nothing wrong with your heart, after a battery of tests. But it would be even worse to drop dead because I ignored physical red flags for major problems, having written them off as anxiety. There is absolutely no way for me to discern the difference in the two things.

Understandable so far?

So, bearing all that in mind, the anti anxiety pills allow me some power over these events. If I feel chest pains, or numbness, I can take a pill and see if the symptoms abate or not. It can allow me to not have to show up at the emergency room every so often saying "Hey, it's me again, could you just do a blood test and an EKG to make sure I'm not dying."

The depression issues aren't quite as pronounced as the anxiety issues are. But to me they are cut from the same cloth. I have a good friend who takes an SSRI, and has for a couple of years now. She is an outgoing, fun, happy human being these days. A few years ago the story was much different. She was withdrawn, morose, without confidence, and miserable. I think it would be not just a shame, but frankly criminal, if somebody were to come along and force her into going back to the dismal kind of life she once had simply based upon the notion that they felt that depression was a crock and medications are bad. It may well be a crock to them, but to her it's the difference between living her life or existing in a sort of perpetual Hell. I doubt that she'd find any comfort in the idea that going through that Hell might seem more noble or ordered to others... Others who would never have to set foot into her Hell.

Looking at these medications as methods of "avoidance" or an avoidance of coping just isn't correct to me. We are not talking about heroin, coc aine, or alcohol here. We are not talking about people getting high. We are talking about people who have found a way to feel more like most of the world feels. To not physically hurt (which is a very real symptom of depression - physical pain / soreness). Drug abuse and therapeutic medication are two very separate concepts. Think of it less like a person taking something to "avoid" and more like a diabetic using insulin and you get a better idea of what it actually is like to those who suffer from these things.

~Heff

Originally posted by TKDRL
reply to post by Chinesis

 

I tend to stay away from subjects like these mostly. Once I figured out how to overcome things without putting pharmacuticals into my body, I was pretty excited really. I used to be part of depression groups, and suicide prevention groups etc etc, trying to let other people in on the secret. Rather than listen, people took it like I was personally attacking them, or trolling, or implying I was stronger; all kinds of crazy accusations. Really, what would one possibly gain from that, then again I never really did understand the point of trolling at all. I still don't to this day lol.

This is awesome news!
Btw, I don't even know what trolling means?
No worries, though.

Chinesis, I did not write the things you quoted me as writing in your last post. No problems as I cross columns sometimes myself.

Originally posted by Hefficide
In fact calling it an anxiety attack is somewhat of a misnomer as most of it has nothing to do with feeling anxious.

Well, yes it is a misnomer, but that is because anxiety attacks and panic attacks are two different events which happen for two different reasons. They're often mistakenly referred to synonymously, but even though they originate from the same source, they are different events.

Anxiety attacks are strong nervous feelings triggered by a stressful or tense situation. Panic attacks are strong physical symptoms, such as chest pain, shortness of breath, rapid heart rate etc., triggered by a concern for the health and well-being of your body or mind.

What you are experiencing is definitely a panic attack, not an anxiety attack. The physical symptoms you feel are being triggered by your fear of the health of your heart. Your situation is the true definition of a panic attack, so don't let anyone BS you into believe it's "just anxiety"... it's not. It's a panic disorder that has deep roots springing from your PTSD.

Originally posted by deadred
Chinesis, I did not write the things you quoted me as writing in your last post. No problems as I cross columns sometimes myself.

edit on 11/14/2010 by deadred because: (no reason given)

Big oops, man!
Those darn rookies!

i suffer from bipolar disorder. i can go from depressed with not even the energy to get out of bed to totally manic in a minute. i have suicidal thoughts, anxiety, and rage...i take 9 pills a day and have gined about 50 lbs...if it were not for my meds i would be non functioning

Originally posted by thing fish
i suffer from bipolar disorder. i can go from depressed with not even the energy to get out of bed to totally manic in a minute. i have suicidal thoughts, anxiety, and rage...i take 9 pills a day and have gined about 50 lbs...if it were not for my meds i would be non functioning

Man...I'm really sorry to hear this
How long have you been on meds and what were you doing prior?

What makes you rage?

Originally posted by thing fish
i suffer from bipolar disorder. i can go from depressed with not even the energy to get out of bed to totally manic in a minute. i have suicidal thoughts, anxiety, and rage...i take 9 pills a day and have gined about 50 lbs...if it were not for my meds i would be non functioning

you have the same haircut as me.

i wonder if that has anything to do with it.

reply to post by PETROLCOIN

~I cannot thank you enough for this post!!! I also suffer from Clinical Depression and empathize with everything that you say. This subject is unfortunately, so very neglected because of the stigma attached to it. I congratulate you on your bravery for sharing this!!!~

reply to post by baxt444


Thank you.

I agree, it is very neglected. Fortunately there are those who take it seriously and strides have been made in recent years to bring more attention to it, but it is still one of the most misunderstood widespread illnesses. I hope that changes in the near future.

Good luck to you. If you ever feel down, come to this thread. You aren't alone.