If Jesus was God, why did he pray to himself?

reply to post by Romantic_Rebel


And you do know that you are wrong to assume that the so-called "christians" who uphold the doctrine of the trinity are really christians, right?

You are quick to claim that the bible is full of contradictions. Post the passages here, not links, but the contradicting passages themselves, and we will inspect if they are really contradicting each other. You said it yourself:

"There are many contradictions in the Bible. Since many different translations."

There you go. It's not the Bible itself that is full of contradictions BUT the translations. Ever heard of the phrase "lost in translation?" The Greek manuscripts that we have today are not the originals but are translations themselves, worse, they are translations of translated versions before them.

Christ himself never taught or even hinted anything about the so-called trinity anywhere in the Bible. So how come all these religious organizations who call themselves "christian churches" uphold the doctrine of the trinity? Think, sir. You might be surprised that those "christians" whose doctrines you're trying to debunk might not be really christians after all. In other words, sir, you are barking the wrong tree in me. Please read my post again, carefully this time, before you categorize me among those whom you perceive as christians.

reply to post by bijouramov


So you want my word for the contradictions in the Bible? The Bible is riddle with contradiction and false teachings. You need to study the origins of your religion before you discredit me.
Jews for Judaism
Messiah Truth
Jews for Judaism and Messiah Truth offers great insight on why any form of Christianity is incorrect.
Pagan Origins of the Christ Myth
Of course Jesus was influenced more from Pagan religions out there. If you deny that statement then you deny history and the various evidence that supports figures that predate Jesus.
Bible Contradicitions
Bible Contracitions 2
You already deny the various contradictions in the Bible. Let me guess some verses or not true or metaphors or parables?
The Bible shares similar stories in Creation and tales.
Creation Myths

The statements are my testimony and the links are my proof of evidence.

reply to post by Romantic_Rebel


Can you give me your definition of christianity as you understand it? Because I don't think you hear me when I say that the so called "christianity" today isn't really the real christianity.

If that isn't clear to you then let me make it simpler: I. Do. Not. Believe. In. The. Doctrine. Of. The. Trinity.
When you say that God is only one and not three persons in one God: I. Agree. With. You.
When you say that God does not have a human form: I. Agree. With. You.
When you say that Jesus isn't a god: I. Agree. With. You.

There. Do you understand where I'm coming from now?

reply to post by bijouramov


Yes, of course. But I'm taking in one step further and I'm excited to debate with you! Because I see what you believe differently. Do you agree?

I don't want to debate because debating will accomplish nothing. But I am willing to discuss the real doctrines of Christianity as taught in the Bible, because in discussing we learn together. Instead of a debate which is really nothing but a pissing contest. Are you willing to learn with me?

reply to post by bijouramov


Sure! It's your faith! I have to admit there are numerous schools of Christian thought and today I have three or maybe four family Churches throughout the country. New Mexico, Texas, somewhere in the East and maybe more. All of them Christian yet one is Catholic, and the other two are Protestant.

Sir, I'm about to go to sleep as it's already morning where I am, but let me leave you something to ponder. Catholicism is not Christian, neither is Protestantism. Both believe in the trinity which the Christian Bible never taught, mentioned, or even hinted at.

True Christianity in the Bible teaches of one and only one invisible, indivisible, Almighty God, the Father who is Spirit in nature and who created all things, all of humankind including Christ himself.

More later.

reply to post by bijouramov


Well the Churches don't have the Trinity in the title and I don't recall if any of my relives believe in the Trinity. I believe they call it the father, son and the holy spirit.

Jesus,at first(his first coming) was gods son (the closest person to god). Jesus second coming,he inherits gods kingdom (becoming him?)

reply to post by bijouramov
bijouramov,

There sure is no God but one is true but He is able to be what He needs to be to accomplish His purpose.

For the purpose of redeeming man He came in the body of a man.

Heb 2:9 But we see Jesus, who was made a little lower than the angels for the suffering of death, crowned with glory and honour; that he by the grace of God should taste death for every man.

A little more on that -

Heb 10:5 Wherefore when he cometh into the world, he saith, Sacrifice and offering thou wouldest not, but a body hast thou prepared me:

But notice -

Col 2:9 For in him dwelleth all the fulness of the Godhead bodily.

It was God the Father that dwelt in Him.

2Co 5:19 To wit, that God was in Christ, reconciling the world unto himself, not imputing their trespasses unto them; and hath committed unto us the word of reconciliation.

Before Bethlehem this is who he was and notice "beside me there is no God".

Isa 44:6 Thus saith the LORD the King of Israel, and his redeemer the LORD of hosts; I am the first, and I am the last; and beside me there is no God.

John 4:24 He tells us God is Spirit.

The rest of this mystery is explained -

Joh 8:42 Jesus said unto them, If God were your Father, ye would love me: for I proceeded forth and came from God; neither came I of myself, but he sent me.

That is plain to me and should be to all.

Truthiron.

reply to post by truthiron


I honestly found nothing in your response that would support your claim that Jesus Christ is God. You may think some verses of the Bible support your interpretation but the Bible clarifies itself in other verses. For instance, the Bible made it clear who Jesus Christ really is in the grand scheme of things:

"Therefore, since we have a great high priest who has ascended into heaven, Jesus the Son of God, let us hold firmly to the faith we profess." Hebrews 4:14

Notice how Christ is described? He is a "high priest" of God and not a part of a non-existent trinity. If I accept your interpretation then it would seem that God is his own high priest right? Don't you find that retarded even one bit?
Furthermore, the trinity doctrine claims that all three--the father, the son, and the holy spirit--are all equal in terms of power and authority right? Which means one cannot send or command the other two. But how come in John 8:42 which you yourself used, you did not notice the rest of the verse where it says:

Jesus said unto them, If God were your Father, ye would love me: for I proceeded forth and came from God; neither came I of myself, but he sent me.

Who has the greater authority then, the one who is sent or the one who sends?

How about 1 Timothy 2:5 as another clarifying verse?

"For there is one God and one mediator between God and human beings, Christ Jesus, himself human,"

You see how clearly the Bible differentiates God and Jesus Christ? It says one God and one mediator between God and human beings. Again, one mediator between God and human beings. Who is that mediator then? Christ Jesus who is himself...human. As human as the human beings he represents before God.

God the Father is God Almighty and no one else.

Jesus on the other hand is human, but not just an ordinary human being since God exalted him over everyone else, to have authority over everything with the exception of God the Father who has dominion over Christ. (1 Corinthians 15:27-28)

For he “has put everything under his feet.” Now when it says that “everything” has been put under him, it is clear that this does not include God himself, who put everything under Christ. When he has done
this, then the Son himself will be made subject to him who put everything under him, so that God may be all in all.

On the day the Christ returns, everything will submit to him. But after all that is over and done with, he will subject himself before God so that God may be all in all. God rules all my friend. God is above Christ. Make no mistake about that.

reply to post by bijouramov


"Now the earth was without shape and empty, and darkness was over the surface of the watery deep, but the Spirit of God was moving over the surface of the water."

Was this (whatever it is being described) sent from God?
Was this (whatever it is being described), if it was, in your opinion, sent from God, God, or something else?
I believe that Jesus claiming to be sent from God was the same as claiming to be God, not that he necessarily always made such a fine point of it, but it is there.
He made a distinction between himself, and someone who might have gone to heaven, had some sort of encounter experience, then returned. Jesus claims to come right out from within God, and that is the origin of his being on this earth.

reply to post by jmdewey60



When you say that you believe that Jesus came right out from within God, the Bible agrees. In fact, everyone came right out of God, in the sense that all is conceived in the mind of God before he creates anything. So when Jesus said he was sent by God or he came from God, why should it cause you to think that he is claiming to be God? Aren't we all conceived in the mind of the Father?

If God himself proclaimed that he is the only true God and that he will recognize no other, but then Jesus comes saying he is human but at the same time, according to you, is also claiming to be God himself, wouldn't that make Jesus a usurper?

In John 10:25-38 Jesus is telling the Jews that he is indeed the Messiah whom God promised them and that he does good works on behalf of his Father because that is the reason why he was created by God. But they did not understand him, instead, they thought that Jesus was claiming to be God, when in fact, Jesus always made it a point to differentiate himself from the only true God.

If you seek to understand God in order for you to glorify him the way he wants you to, ask it and it will be given. Do not rely on your own personal understanding because the Bible is not meant to be interpreted by just anyone. It is God's grace to give understanding to anyone he chooses, not because we are worthy of knowledge but simply because he is merciful.

reply to post by bijouramov

. . .that he does good works on behalf of his Father because that is the reason why he was created by God.

"in these last days he has spoken to us in a son, whom he appointed heir of all things, and through whom he created the world."
This answers the usurper question because this is the opposite of the definition, and this answers your claim that Jesus was created. Jesus is the personification of the creator.
". . .the glory I had with you before the world was created." Jesus did not just get created, he was a person before anything else existed, and that being true, he himself could not be created.
"And we know that the Son of God has come and has given us insight to know him who is true, and we are in him who is true, in his Son Jesus Christ. This one is the true God and eternal life." our knowledge of Jesus is the knowledge of God. Trying to put a wedge between them jeopardises your very salvation, as opposed to your claim that combining the two is blasphemy.

reply to post by bijouramov
bijouramov,

I will not debate the subject but I will put down some verses for you to consider.

Joh 1:1 ¶ In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.
Joh 1:2 The same was in the beginning with God.
Joh 1:3 All things were made by him; and without him was not any thing made that was made.
Joh 1:4 In him was life; and the life was the light of men.
Joh 1:14 And the Word was made flesh, and dwelt among us, (and we beheld his glory, the glory as of the only begotten of the Father,) full of grace and truth.

He was the Father manifest in the flesh of one of us that the plan of salvation could be carried out and accomplished. He humbled Himself to redeem us and all things are put in this Redeemers hands until all is done. The following verses will explain. Notice He Reigns, verse 25.

1Co 15:24 Then cometh the end, when he shall have delivered up the kingdom to God, even the Father; when he shall have put down all rule and all authority and power.
1Co 15:25 For he must reign, till he hath put all enemies under his feet.
1Co 15:26 The last enemy that shall be destroyed is death.
1Co 15:27 For he hath put all things under his feet. But when he saith, all things are put under him, it is manifest that he is excepted, which did put all things under him.
1Co 15:28 And when all things shall be subdued unto him, then shall the Son also himself be subject unto him that put all things under him, that God may be all in all.

Then He'll be the Prince and we'll be His subjects, He bought us and paid for us.

Truthiron.

Originally posted by faceoff85
reply to post by Romantic_Rebel

 

Jesus never claimed to be god. This was introduced around 400AC by caesar Constantine at the council of Geneve... In fact there is lots of biblical evidence denouncing Jesus to be God. He even said so himself... he mentions that his father is greater then himself...

"The Jews answered him, saying, For a good work we stone thee not; but for blasphemy; and because that thou, being a man, makest thyself God." John 10:33

If you think otherwise stop reading modern bible versions that derived from the Textus Sinaticus and Textus Vaticanus Greek manuscripts that originated out of Alexandria Egypt. Their sole purpose was to attack the divinity of Jesus Christ.

Originally posted by bijouramov
Sir, I'm about to go to sleep as it's already morning where I am, but let me leave you something to ponder. Catholicism is not Christian, neither is Protestantism. Both believe in the trinity which the Christian Bible never taught, mentioned, or even hinted at.

True Christianity in the Bible teaches of one and only one invisible, indivisible, Almighty God, the Father who is Spirit in nature and who created all things, all of humankind including Christ himself.

More later.

Would you mind showing me a verse that says God "created" Jesus Christ.

Take time and read John 1:1 when you get a chance.

reply to post by NOTurTypical


You conclude by citing John 1:1 and 14 which mention "the Word was God" and that "the Word was made flesh," that it was God Himself who took on human form. Is this scriptural?

If we carefully examine John 1:1, we would understand that the "Word" is not the Almighty God who is the Creator of all things because it had a beginning unlike the true God who is "from everlasting to everlasting" or is without beginning or end (Psalms 90:2).

The portion that states, "And the Word was with God" also denies that the "Word" is God Almighty because the only true God cannot be with another true God. There is only one God and there can never be another. The true God alone is Almighty as He had revealed Himself to Abraham (Genesis 17:1). To recognize another God is tantamount to saying that there are two Almighty Gods, which is obviously wrong because no being can be mightier than He who is Almighty or even be equal to Him.

It is written that, "In the beginning was the Word." The "Word" mentioned here is the promise of God about the coming of Christ (Romans 1:2-3, King James Version). The coming of Christ into existence was promised by God through His prophets (Deuteronomy 18:18; Isaiah 7:14). Hence, the Word was "In the beginning."

Regarding the portion that says, "the Word was with God," the Bible states:

"God foreknew this even before the foundation of the world, but it is now, in these last days, that for your sakes He has been revealed." ( 1 Peter 1:20, Norlie's Simplified New Testament)

The idea or plan concerning Christ was already conceived by God even before the creation of the world. The Word conceived or thought of by God is not an independent being nor did it have a separate existence from God who conceived it. The plan was only in the mind of God.

The Official Catholic Edition of the Bible in its footnote on John 1:1 says:

"... St. John employs the term Word. It is so used only by St. John... and designates the Son as a kind of intellectual emanation from the Father." (The New Testament of Our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ, emphasis mine)

The Word is defined here as a kind of intellectual emanation or thought from the Father. Indeed, the knowledge about Christ was already there even before the foundation of the world. This explains why, "the Word was with God."

It is written in the verse that the "Word was God" because the words of God possess the power of God (Luke 1:37, 31, American Standard Version). In the statement, "the Word was God," "God" was used not as a noun but as an adjective to describe the quality of the Word. So, James Moffatt, in his translation of John 1:1, rendered "the Word was God" as "the word was divine."

The part of the verse that says, "the Word was made flesh" refers to the fact that the Word or promise of God about Christ's coming into existence was fulfilled: "when the time had fully come, God sent forth his Son, born of a woman, born under the law" (Galatians 4:4, Revised Standard Version). The plan of God materialized or "the Word was made flesh" when Mary gave birth to Jesus who Himself is human in state of being.

When the Word was made flesh, the Almighty God did not incarnate or become man in the person of Jesus, as others claim. Christ Himself confirmed that He is not God when He prayed to the Father:

"Jesus spoke these words, lifted up His eyes to heaven, and said: "Father, the hour has come. Glorify Your Son, that Your Son also may glorify You. And this is eternal life, that they may know You, the only true God, and Jesus Christ whom You have sent." (John 17:1, 3, New King James Version)

Christ, while looking up to heaven, said to the Father, "that they may know You, the only true God." If God Himself were made flesh or if He became Christ, whom then must Christ be addressing in His prayer? Otherwise, He should have said, "that they may know me, the only true God." He didn't. The only true God whom all men should know to attain eternal life said that there is no God besides Him (Deuteronomy 32:39)

To claim that God became Christ or changed His nature is to claim that He contradicted His own pronouncement: "I am the Lord, I do not change" (Malachi 3:6, New King James Version) God is always God and not man (Hosea 11:9). He even declared that man is not God (Ezekiel 28:2) There is only one God Almighty whose nature or state of being is unchangeable. He is Spirit (John 4:24) He does not and will never recognize another.

Christ, on the other hand, says, "I am ascending to My Father, and your Father, and to My God and your God" (John 20;17, New King James Version). Christ did not say, "I ascending as your Father and as your God." Had it been the case, then who would be the God referred to by Christ when He said, "I am ascending to ... My God and your God"?

To gain eternal life, based on Christ's teaching, we must believe that the Father alone is the true God and Jesus Christ is the One sent by the Almighty Father.

Originally posted by innervision0730
Based on the Title. Jesus was God's son. He wasnt God. He prayed to his father.

Yes, the Son of God praying to his Father. That is logical!

reply to post by Thurisaz


See how understanding is given when it is welcomed?