Israelis ambushed by Israeli Arab mob on their way to a pub- Just for being in the wrong neighborhoo

reply to post by nightbringr

Pehaps he is simply trying to show that the issues over there are not as black and white as the Israel bashers on here seem to think?

I agree they are at the root of many problems, but it takes two to tango.

Well if my dance partner held a gun to my head and said "dance or die" then you are correct.

Originally posted by Eliad
reply to post by OllyP

 

Or removal of religion from anything, for that matter, would be just fine..

But, you know, if I could quote/paraphrase Jon Stewart for a sec- Guns (or bricks and pipes for that matter) don't kill people, crazy does.
Same thing applies to religion..

I understand what your saying but it isn't as simple as that. Guns and bricks and pipes don't whisper in the ear of the crazy to see the world in a particular way, or act according to that world view.
Indoctrination and conversion are whats wrong. It takes away free will. Religion is no different to any other belief about the world around us.
Do you think the children of Southern Baptists or Orthadox Jews have an opportunity to make up their own minds about the world they live in? No.
Do you think the African tribes, descended upon by christian missionaries, feel that accepting the Lord is a small price to pay for education and healthcare? Yes.
When a persons life is affected through religious doctrine by way of political, or any other means, it is wrong.
Let people find religious belief if they choose to. It should never be forced.

Originally posted by backinblack
reply to post by nightbringr

 

Pehaps he is simply trying to show that the issues over there are not as black and white as the Israel bashers on here seem to think?

I agree they are at the root of many problems, but it takes two to tango.

Well if my dance partner held a gun to my head and said "dance or die" then you are correct.

And by the same token, if my partners dress concealed a suicide bomb vest or a Qassam rocket, held me close and said "dance or die", I would then also be correct!

reply to post by joewalker

so you reckon that, what, eight thousand were out on the streets?

Yeah, you're right, I was exaggerating.. Why don't we settle on 100-200?
To be fair though it was probably somewhere between 50 and 100, but I'm assuming the whole town is not concentrated around the exact same spot the car was in, so the people who were participating were only the ones living nearby...
The truth is we'll never know.. Hard to count while you're getting palleted with bricks and pipes, and when no one in town is willing to testify against the aggressors.

though the border police have an especially bad record and rep in Issawiya

Yeah, the border police are a bunch of primitive assholes for the most part.

Riiiiight, So ALL Arabs(christian, Druze, Muslim etc) are uneducated, backwards idiots but only SOME Israelis. Peace just gets further and further away.

who are no different than the Arabs who attacked those kids..

Not all Arabs.

Peace just gets further and further away.

Hey! Give it back..

And yet, the occupants of the car managed to ID the young kid and old guy among the Twelve thousand...

Did they? If they did it's only because they saw the boy and the man before they were ambushed..

Personally I see no difference between the two incidents. Both were aimed at people just going about thier daily lives.

Your choice.. You're ignoring the fact that one incident involved luring in, trapping and probably lynching a group of young Israelis, the other involved a group of extremists trying to scare away Arabs from their town by beating them up..
In other words- One was an active attempt to set up a violent incident, the other was a direct reaction to an event.
Not saying both aren't horrid.. It's just that there's a difference.. It's as if the Safed people would have rented the house to the Arabs for the soul purpose of lynching them..

Cool, how do you know twelve thousand people took part?

I don't.
Why are you ignoring the fact that everyone ran away after the first shot in Safed? Shows that they didn't want to go that far, while in Issawia they tried to trap them in for god knows what..
Isn't that an important difference?

Elmakis is a border policeman from Safed. Do you think he was carrying his weapon to impress the girls they were meeting? Real professional, ay. Id def trust them to be fair and impartial.

The border police is a branch of the IDF, meaning young people get drafted to it at the age of 18 and get released at 21. It's very popular within the more primitive, more violent Israelis (usually Jews of Arab descent), as a result they are a bunch of assholes.
This kid is going to jail for a long time. Serves him right too.

Are you trying to suggest those views are only prevalent within 'Arab' communities in Israel?

No, they seem to be more prevalent in any Arab community in comparison to most other communities, including the Arabic Jewish population.
Although I can easily find parallels between them and orthodox Jews as well.. The less orthodox Jews are usually much more modern.. Depends on the environment..
Also should be noted that with every generation the Israeli Arabs are becoming more and more modern (I'm talking about the children and young adults- My friends, and some of the parents). And it also very much depends on the environment.

reply to post by OllyP


Agreed.

reply to post by backinblack


So you're saying they were somehow forced to trap these people and assault them?

At any rate, I wasn't trying to show it takes two to tango (although a more correct metaphor would be both partners holding guns to each others' heads), I was showing how Israeli general perception of the Arabs is born, and how it is not born out of thin air, pure racism, blind hate, etc..

This story doesn't ring true as far as giving us the whole truth. It sounds like some poor jews were just minding their business and were attacked, but by the grace of them being "chosen people" they were saved. Lets analyze their story. They go nightly into Jerusalem and the same area which tells me they are familiar with the city. Since they are Jewish they would know what are they areas to avoid. Why would the "chosen people" decide to go into a non jewish area? Were they drinking? It seems unlikely they got lost. Maybe it was the night to run amok and yell racial slurs and throw things at pedestrians in the non-jewish area. Luckily some rock throwing kids were available to give them something to think about. Of course no jews were hurt in the incident but the whole neighborhood needs to be demolished now.

The picture showing 'barbed wire fence' is not barbed wire fence, it's chain link fence.

Any other errors ?

reply to post by BillfromCovina


They're from Givatayim.. It's right next to Tel Aviv..
All the details are in the article..

"the chosen people"? Grow up..

"Because they were Jewish they knew what to avoid'? What, you mean they should've turned on their Arab radar?

Too bad about the car. Not as bad as happened to this house in Issawiya

reply to post by Eliad

It is you who need to read the article. It is a nightly drive not a once in a lifetime drive and of course the word "pub" is mentioned, which means drinking. If you drive nightly to the same place why go into an area you know nothing about? Every night you go to the same place and know the way. One night you just decide that the way that has always worked is not right anymore.

reply to post by bigyin

Just another exaggeration to incite people. I like the way the man is moving the "barbed wire" with his bare hands.

reply to post by Eliad

Yeah, you're right, I was exaggerating.. Why don't we settle on 100-200?
To be fair though it was probably somewhere between 50 and 100, but I'm assuming the whole town is not concentrated around the exact same spot the car was in, so the people who were participating were only the ones living nearby...

Its not about trying to catch each other out, its about langauge and its use. You repeatedly stated that the whole town was in on it.

You then want to settle on an approximate number while admitting that a lower figure would probably be fairer. I especially like the twist at the end were you insinuate that more people would have been involved if they only lived nearer..........
Isnt it this kind of inaccurate sensationalism (within this forum) that you claim to be against?

Peace just gets further and further away.................

Hey! Give it back..

In other words- One was an active attempt to set up a violent incident, the other was a direct reaction to an event.
Not saying both aren't horrid.. It's just that there's a difference.. It's as if the Safed people would have rented the house to the Arabs for the soul purpose of lynching them..

But people wearnt lynched in Issawyia. A car was stoned or more likely 'rocked' and none of the occupants of the car were injured. In their own words they were out of the area and checking thier car over BEFORE the police turned up. Im not saying it wasnt scary, but like other members, I have some doubt about the inference placed on the story by Ynet, Arutz Sheva and yourself.

Do you not think that both were reactions to events? Tension has been rising in East Jerusalem since the various housing schemes were green lighted and the thoughts of the well known Safed municipal rabbi are hardly a secret.

Why are you ignoring the fact that everyone ran away after the first shot in Safed? Shows that they didn't want to go that far

Not ignoring it bud, I just dont see it as a redeeming feature. Lots of criminals are sad AFTER the event.

It's very popular within the more primitive, more violent Israelis (usually Jews of Arab descent), as a result they are a bunch of assholes.

No, they seem to be more prevalent in any Arab community in comparison to most other communities, including the Arabic Jewish population.

I think you are alright Eliad and we could prob have a beer and a laugh, but if you want to argue racial stereotypes, then other members are better then me.

From an earlier post on this thread:

most Arab culture is extremely primitive in many aspects.. Gay people that can't tell their parents.. Girls that have to hide their Jewish boyfriend, or the fact that they're having sex.. And so on...

So its only 'Arab culture' That objects to the above is it? Tho I suppose Rabbi Ovadya Yosef was born in Baghdad, wasnt he?

Also should be noted that with every generation the Israeli Arabs are becoming more and more modern (I'm talking about the children and young adults- My friends, and some of the parents). And it also very much depends on the environment.

Environment and options..the Palestinians havent had much of either for a long time.

Forty three years of occupation has only created more people who hate Israel. Its waaay past time to allow these folks the same chance at a decent life that Israelis have.

For all that I've bagged dubya, it seems he almost brokered a deal..shame allegations of corruption weakened Olmert.

reply to post by bigyin


Who cares about the car? They're lucky to be alive...

And what's this video supposed to show? When did this happen? Why did this happen? And why are we being shown that old woman the whole time over and over going "Yababababababababababa"? Emotional extortion? We don't even know if she has anything to do with this house demolition..

But all that aside- Are you somehow trying to justify this attempted lynching?

reply to post by BillfromCovina


Nightly drive does not necessarily mean a drive that happens every night, it also means a drive at night..

"There were no signs, and since we don't live in the area we didn't know how to turn back..

They haven't reached the pub yet, so they weren't drunk, and let's say they were, and they got lost, does that make being ambushed and lynched their fault now?

If you drive nightly to the same place why go into an area you know nothing about?

I agree, that's why it's most likely they got lost, what other explanation is there?

reply to post by joewalker

Isnt it this kind of inaccurate sensationalism (within this forum) that you claim to be against?

I had no idea it's that big, and I do expect that if more people were living nearby there would have been a bigger crowd, don't you?

But people wearnt lynched in Issawyia.

What would have happened had they not run away in time? They would have started a debate on Israeli occupation?

I have some doubt about the inference placed on the story by Ynet, Arutz Sheva and yourself.

I understand..

Do you not think that both were reactions to events? Tension has been rising in East Jerusalem since the various housing schemes were green lighted and the thoughts of the well known Safed municipal rabbi are hardly a secret.

Both were reactions, but one was direct, the other wasn't, and the main difference is that one was circumstantial, the other was orchestrated.. They lured them in for the sole purpose of, I assume, lynching them, while the other gang of thugs didn't lure and trap anyone.. If anything, they wanted them out.
This wouldn't have been such a big deal had they not cut off the road behind them with taxis and fences..

Not ignoring it bud, I just dont see it as a redeeming feature. Lots of criminals are sad AFTER the event.

It's just a question of intent.. Shows that they came to scare them out of the town, and not to kill them, the same can most likely not be said for the other side I'm afraid.. Or maybe they were just trying to trash that guy's car.. Why would they block the road then?

but if you want to argue racial stereotypes, then other members are better then me

there's being a racist, and there's not being politically correct.. I'm just not being very PC about the whole thing..

So its only 'Arab culture' That objects to the above is it? Tho I suppose Rabbi Ovadya Yosef was born in Baghdad, wasnt he?

Exactly. I'm of Arab descent too, by the way.. Grandparents from Syria and Turkey.

Environment and options..the Palestinians havent had much of either for a long time.

I don't think Israeli occupation is what makes their culture primitive.. It's religion, it's the respect for elders, It's the fact that the young generation who is more exposed to western culture hasn't grown up yet.

Forty three years of occupation has only created more people who hate Israel. Its waaay past time to allow these folks the same chance at a decent life that Israelis have.

I completely agree.

In my opinion it is Israel who is primative. Anyone who gets in their road or criticises them gets either shot, bulldozed, bombed, murdered, missiled, or labelled anti semite / terrorist.

I'm more than amazed that the Arab culture has not taken Israel off the map long before now. To me that shows an enormous amount of tolerance, something Israel definetly lacks.

I think it's Israel that needs to grow up.

Since it's only 60 years old I suppose thats only to be expected.

reply to post by bigyin

In my opinion it is Israel who is primative. Anyone who gets in their road or criticises them gets either shot, bulldozed, bombed, murdered, missiled, or labelled anti semite / terrorist.

Fair enough, so there are two types of primitivity, one is cultural, and is mostly limited to Arabs (on both sides.. Jews of Arab descent also have the same tendencies, but they're more influenced by Israeli and western culture).
And the other is violent, territorial primitivity, which is abundant on both sides.
I agree, the violence needs to stop, the shooting, bulldozing, bombing, murdering, missiles, and labeling, they all need to stop.

I'm more than amazed that the Arab culture has not taken Israel off the map long before now. To me that shows an enormous amount of tolerance, something Israel definetly lacks.

lol!
Tolerance? Like the one they showed in the Yum Kippur War? Or perhaps the war of independence? Or the other 4 wars in which Israel has faced all or most of the 4 Arab nations surrounding it by itself?

Yes, Arab culture has not been able to take Israeli off the map.. But not for lack of trying..

Since it's only 60 years old I suppose thats only to be expected.

True..

reply to post by Eliad

Hey Eliad.

I had no idea it's that big, and I do expect that if more people were living nearby there would have been a bigger crowd, don't you?

Dunno tbh, can you understand why I have doubt over the whole 'pre-planned ambush' thing?

What would have happened had they not run away in time? They would have started a debate on Israeli occupation?

Probably not, according to the driver of the car the locals didnt speak Hebrew.

I understand..

I hope so.

They lured them in for the sole purpose of, I assume, lynching them, while the other gang of thugs didn't lure and trap anyone.. If anything, they wanted them out.

The other gang of thugs trapped and attacked people in thier homes. Both were despicable acts in my book and no, I still fail to see a difference.

This wouldn't have been such a big deal had they not cut off the road behind them with taxis and fences..

Yea, a roll of fence wire that could be driven over and a line of taxi's with a car sized escape route....Did you check out the vid I posted which shows typical roads in Issawiya?

there's being a racist, and there's not being politically correct.. I'm just not being very PC about the whole thing..

Yea, I read similar remarks and excuses from people on other forums all the time. Where would we be without labels huh?

I don't think Israeli occupation is what makes their culture primitive.. It's religion, it's the respect for elders, It's the fact that the young generation who is more exposed to western culture hasn't grown up yet.

Most religions have similar problems though, dont they?

Trouble with the occupation is, imho, that it drives people towards the religiously insane; It gives them legitimacy. Especially when you consider the driving force is based on books written from oral tradition from thousands of yrs ago.

Wasnt there something in the various treaties about helping to improve the ecconomic and societal structures of the native inhabitants of Palestine.
How'd that work out?

reply to post by Eliad


Well you can laugh all you want. The way I see it is Israel appeared before Arabs eyes and they did all they could to prevent it. I call that defending yourself. But your right they didn't have the ability to repel the creation of a new state on land that belonged to them.

I think in the long run the tide will turn and Israel will find itself exposed. At that point the Arabs will seek revenge and it's will be bad news for all those living in Israel. Which will be a shame because it does not have to be that way.

If the point of your thread was to summon up some sympathy for these Israelis that got beat up then its a massive fail. If every single Israeli was drivin into the sea I doubt not a single Arab would feel any remorse or sympathy for them. Same goes for a fair chunk of western culture/civilisation.

Now, as I have said in many previous posts, you have to ask why that is. Why is is it that Israel is hated by so many people around the world, and why is it that so many would be glad to see the back of it ?

I can give countless examples of why it is, but I don't want to do that because it's been done so many times before on ATS.

Lets look at it another way. What examples can be shown that would cause people to like Israel, to want to see it prosper, to admire the way it does things, to show it as an exemplary model.

I can't think of any, can you ?

Clearly Israel needs to arm up their helicopter gunships and go in there and kill all of those darn Arabs. While they are at it, they should iummediately bulldoze all of the homes there and begin building new "Settlements". That will show those filthy, dirty Arabs once and for all - and I bet it would stop all of the anger the Arabs have toward the Israelis, right?