Are YOU Real?

Are you real? or are you a figment of MY imagination that helps me to make up MY reality? if YOU say 'yes,ewokdisco,you handsome man,i AM real' how do we know for certain it is true? then i ask, am i real or am i only here to make up YOUR reality? and why all this effort [a universe etc] for me and you [maybe] ?

i suspect, at some sub atomic level, [smaller than we yet know] reality won't be as we think it is;something more individual. must also ask,if WE make up our own reality, like a hologram, then why dont we have much more control over it? why isn't our reality nicer and easier to make good?

so, are YOU real?

Me and a lovely woman had a very long conversation about this the other night inside a dark green house as we watched for hooligans who may arrive to smash pumpkins.

The stakeout was planned, but the conversation was not.

We both came to the conclusion (for sake of conversation) that this entire reality is very clever, but not clever enough to trick us both in to fully excepting it as real (or "fully perceive it as real"). We figured/speculated that those smart enough to accept it all blindly and without question, are actually just "in the zone"....sorta like when playing a video game.

Now that was all in a greenhouse, in the dark, after a few six packs...

So take it how you must.

Further more, the video I am adding to this always seems to calm my nerves on the subject of reality, whenever stress runs a little too high, or gloom creeps in a little too fast, I just play this little bit of wonderful poetry and say to myself-

"Keep Walking"

(WARNING: some part of video may prove to be disturbing to humans with eyes and/or ears)

mrmask, please expand on 'very clever'...

First of all, reading a post off the site is just enough for me to say that the site exists, not you. but even then, perhaps the computer does not exist either. but if it didn't, where would it be? Things cannot go from something to nothing, it doesn't work that way. so either something does exist or it doesn't, but there is no other option. thats all i got.

Good thinking.

I'm glad other people think like me sometimes.

There is no way we can ever prove to each other that you are real. How do I know you are not only part of my reality?

This may be one of those things that we never solve.

Originally posted by ewokdisco
mrmask, please expand on 'very clever'...

Expand? I'm sorry, that is not possible to any extreme...

But to limited degree, I'd say "clever enough to make you think your smart enough to rest here and accept it".

Nobody stands up in a movie theater screaming- "THE SCREEN IS FLAT! THIS IS NOT REAL!"

But we are doing that now...in a way...me and you... mulling over the idea out loud with no evidence or real reason to speculate.

Perhaps there are things we can't see, behind us (figuratively, for lack of better wording) screaming at us in a voice we can't hear-

"SIT DOWN!!! YOUR BLOCKING THE SCREEN!"

But...the idea you are speaking of goes back hundreds (thousands) of years...its a fundamental "thought" all have pondered to one length or another.


If I remember our conversation clearly (and I assure you I do not due to the beer being so darn loud in my memory), the best part of the talk surrounded its opening statement-

"What seems more plausible to you? A bunch of matter and energy was sitting in "nothingness", unmoving and without "time", and suddenly exploded like a firework, and as those pieces of matter flung outward- we all grew and formed into xbox360s, polar bears, contact lenses and humans?"

Or-

"Is it more believable to accept reality is more akin to The Brain in a Vat series of theories/thought-experiments/arguments".

We both agreed that reality is more believable as a farce, then as what it is presented to us in life.

But, either way, you can not win the game if you spend your entire time playing it "only looking for its programing/glitches/alternate-realities...

Reality is real...but maybe what we perceive reality as being- is not...

I know if I threw a bunch of particles into a void and made them explode...I wouldn't be expecting the results we have now. Nor would anyone.

Then again...science is a masterpiece and one hell of a story teller....true or false.

MM

Well, I'm real to myself. I think that's all that matters. As long as I believe I exist, therefore I actually do indeed.

I am absolutely a figment of your imagination.

But does that make me any less real?

Originally posted by mblaze2023
Well, I'm real to myself. I think that's all that matters. As long as I believe I exist, therefore I actually do indeed.

I think, therefore I spam...

This song explains a lot about life, I highly recommend you take the ride to listen to it at least once while on this planet. It makes the journey more fun...

LIFE

i awoke one morning and for a split second, all was white and then sort of filled in. i wondered if the white was a quantum drawing board where YOU fill in YOUR reality. is there an experiment we could try to prove our ULTIMATE REALITY?

This is how i see it. Im both real, and a figment of your imagination at the same time. You can deny my existance but i will still exist. If this Universe is just energy vibrating at different frequencys. Then its light that picks up on the notes. So the accepted reality that we all share is the result of our sun, being the ultimate measuring tool. We dont see the world the way we do because of our eyes. We see it the way the sun paints it for us. If we took light out of the equation, then our conciousness could paint pretty much whatever reality it wanted in the void.

Originally posted by ewokdisco
Are you real? or are you a figment of MY imagination that helps me to make up MY reality? if YOU say 'yes,ewokdisco,you handsome man,i AM real' how do we know for certain it is true? then i ask, am i real or am i only here to make up YOUR reality? and why all this effort [a universe etc] for me and you [maybe] ?

i suspect, at some sub atomic level, [smaller than we yet know] reality won't be as we think it is;something more individual. must also ask,if WE make up our own reality, like a hologram, then why dont we have much more control over it? why isn't our reality nicer and easier to make good?

so, are YOU real?

This is a nice philosophial rumination and all, but in the end, the person who takes this thought seriously ends up crazy or dead.

We are all real. This world we live in is real. My thoughts are mine, your thoughts are yours, and we can all trust this is true.

Originally posted by dontreally


This is a nice philosophial rumination and all, but in the end, the person who takes this thought seriously ends up crazy or dead.

We are all crazy and/or dead...

We are all real. This world we live in is real. My thoughts are mine, your thoughts are yours, and we can all trust this is true.

Descartes didn't blindly make that leap, nor end up so logically at that conclusion so easily...

I wonder what it is that has you so sure?

Originally posted by Mr Mask

Originally posted by dontreally


This is a nice philosophial rumination and all, but in the end, the person who takes this thought seriously ends up crazy or dead.

We are all crazy and/or dead...

We are all real. This world we live in is real. My thoughts are mine, your thoughts are yours, and we can all trust this is true.

Descartes didn't blindly make that leap, nor end up so logically at that conclusion so easily...

I wonder what it is that has you so sure?

edit on 5-11-2010 by Mr Mask because: POOF!!! You are NOW real...for now.

Is Descartes G-d?

Geeze. Descartes is just one man. He is right that when he said "i think, therefore i am"

But my security comes from my religion and my spiritual/mystical tradition (kabbalah)

I dont worry about "is life real, am i real, what are my thoughts! Its so weird" that sorta thinking unecessarily upsets your mental equilibrium. I trust that this is the nature of life, the way the world works.

We each exist in our own worlds and its our own knowledge of the dynamics of this world which makes it either easy, and pleasurable, or difficult and hard. Some people just dont care because these questions go to the root of our being. I have resolved this issue of "am i real" a long time ago. I know im real in a temporal sense, as are you, and the guy who made this thread. Every creature is real. Ultimately, though, we are all the manifestation of one reality, each expressing some unique aspect of it. So, in a wider sense, we are projections of the infinite creator/source.

My projections only happen when i sleep and am dreaming. This world, no one i meet is a projection. That line of thinking is 'inception' like and drives the thinker who indulges in that thought to become chronically paranoid, and eventually he'll lose himself.

You have to have courage. Were all in the same boat.

But that thought is not what brings me ease. G-d brings me ease. His love for his creatures brings me ease. In Hebrew, the numerical value of the word for 'one' and love are both the same, 13. Love is a feeling of oneness. love unifies disparate parts. This brings ease to my soul.

We all need to quench this aspect of ourselves if were ever going to live and be comfortable with lifes paradoxes. Life is a paradox. Everything is one massive illusion, and YET, also real.

Originally posted by dontreally

Is Descartes G-d?

I suppose you will tell me he is not? Or possibly that he is? I do not act as if I know the answers to unanswerable questions. My additions to this thread are speculation and experiments in thought.

I am very wary of folks who answer 100% yes-or-no on subjects even science can not prove.

So...in short...is Descartes God? I do not know.

Geeze. Descartes is just one man. He is right that when he said "i think, therefore i am"

Again...I do not risk saying I know Descartes was right. That seems like another leap of faith.

But my security comes from my religion and my spiritual/mystical tradition (kabbalah)

I see...sounds rock solid. No room for being wrong or lack of ego there.

I dont worry about "is life real, am i real, what are my thoughts! Its so weird" that sorta thinking unecessarily upsets your mental equilibrium.

Is your mental equilibrium in danger of being toppled by jumping a few mental hurtles that all sentient creatures ponder at one time or another?

Not mine...I swim in the deep end with no flippers or floaters. I have no problems allowing such thoughts to build/tumble/turn in my mind.

Everyone has a limit I guess...and some find delving deeper into these types of subjects as frivolous or a waste of time. I sorta think such thoughts build a person, and straying away from them limits one.

I trust that this is the nature of life, the way the world works.

Yes, yes...you have more then once said it it easy for you to trust things.

I do not envy that trait.

We each exist in our own worlds and its our own knowledge of the dynamics of this world which makes it either easy, and pleasurable, or difficult and hard. Some people just dont care because these questions go to the root of our being.

We agree there. I also enjoyed reading how you portrayed it.

I have resolved this issue of "am i real" a long time ago.

Lucky guy...I'm very much nowhere near such a conclusion.

I know im real in a temporal sense, as are you, and the guy who made this thread. Every creature is real. Ultimately, though, we are all the manifestation of one reality, each expressing some unique aspect of it. So, in a wider sense, we are projections of the infinite creator/source.

Faith is the confident belief or trust in the truth or trustworthiness of a person, idea, or thing that is not based on proof.

Saying you "know" something that you only have faith in is a far cry from "knowing", no matter how hard you "believe" it to be fact...

I also have much faith, don't think I am knocking it. I'm just saying, when you drift into the oceans of "faith", you are not floating on "rafts of proof".

My projections only happen when i sleep and am dreaming. This world, no one i meet is a projection. That line of thinking is 'inception' like and drives the thinker who indulges in that thought to become chronically paranoid, and eventually he'll lose himself.

I see...one fabric of "faith" is suitable and safe, yet one is dangerous and leads to destruction.

Now...tell me, are you a doctor? A God? A thing that has created this universe?

The answer(s) is no...you are not. I find it odd that you can paste one invisible "creator" over the face of another.

Strange way of accepting reality...too many folks move forward saying "they know", when it is overly appearent "nobody knows".

You have to have courage. Were all in the same boat.

Is allowing reality to be a mystery some form of cowardice? Or is attaching to a pre-explained notion of "it" far easier to call "a lack of courage"?

But that thought is not what brings me ease. G-d brings me ease.

I do not seek ease...nor do I favor "easy".

But I do salute your higher respect for a creator.

His love for his creatures brings me ease. In Hebrew, the numerical value of the word for 'one' and love are both the same, 13. Love is a feeling of oneness. love unifies disparate parts. This brings ease to my soul.

I do not accept any manmade religious trappings, dogmatic guessings or spiritual short-cuts.

My God allows me the freedom of "not knowing".

We all need to quench this aspect of ourselves if were ever going to live and be comfortable with lifes paradoxes. Life is a paradox. Everything is one massive illusion, and YET, also real.

Sounds like your coming around to my side of things with that one line there.

Ha!

Either way, I mean you no harm and will be sharing this universe with you, real or not, until one of us no longer exists.

Good day, and thanks for the mental workout.

MM

Originally posted by Mr Mask
I suppose you will tell me he is not? Or possibly that he is? I do not act as if I know the answers to unanswerable questions. My additions to this thread are speculation and experiments in thought.

I am very wary of folks who answer 100% yes-or-no on subjects even science can not prove.

So...in short...is Descartes God? I do not know.

Well, theres a few things i found just wrong in this line of thinking. Whats wrong with inference? Why would descartes be G-d? He lived, and died. he demonstrates nothing of the absolute nature that G-d symbolizes. G-d is everthing, both the phenomena we experience and infinitely beyond. Thats what i call G-d, thats what Judaism calls G-d (known as the Ein Sof - infinite light) and thats what most religions agree with what G-d is.

I see...sounds rock solid. No room for being wrong or lack of ego there.

That just depends on what you think of Kabbalah and Judaism. I for instance am not a Muslim, yet i respect their sufism. Not a Buddhist or hindu, yet i know theres a degree of revelation and truth there. Same thing with Christianity/gnosticism etc. The mystical is inherently paradoxial. This is a view that the skeptic will either have to accept, or live a life of endless questioning.

..and some find delving deeper into these types of subjects as frivolous or a waste of time. I sorta think such thoughts build a person, and straying away from them limits one.

That is exactly what it is. Frivolous and a waste of time. To ponder is ok. To remind yourself of the ultimate reality is necessary, but to indulge this thought and allow it to determine your course of life is a travesty in my book. Such a person never grows (imo) if he doesnt atleast begin to learn something about the transcendental, metaphysical reality beyond this life.

Faith is the confident belief or trust in the truth or trustworthiness of a person, idea, or thing that is not based on proof. Saying you "know" something that you only have faith in is a far cry from "knowing", no matter how hard you "believe" it to be fact... I also have much faith, don't think I am knocking it. I'm just saying, when you drift into the oceans of "faith", you are not floating on "rafts of proof".

This is where youre very confused. You cant expect to understand the medium by using the very same medium to understand it. In other words, life is complex. We can understand this world up to a certain extent. going beyond is simply entering the paradoxical, as science shows us. Beyond this world there are also more worlds. Theres a world of emotion. A completely different dimension of the human experience. I cant understand emotion by applying emotion to understand it. By definition, a line cant see itself. It can only see a point. To see a line needs an area, and beyond an area, well, thats currently beyond our field of vision. My point. You cant understand physical reality without moving up a dimension. Emotion is above the physical, Thought, that is, intelligence, is above emotion, and beyond the spoken thought, theres the much more abstract and etheral 'world of emanations'. This can only be experienced and not put into words.

You say only proofs are worth believing? Well. I have personally seen what Jung called a 'synchronicty' between the world of form, emotion, and this world. It is what magic is all about. This ritual which i saw actually caused the individual to levitate. Amazing, no? You would say its deception. But i, due to my theoretical and metaphysical understanding of this phenomena bequethed by my study of kabbalah reveals what many mystics already know. What happens is that the physical reality, in someway is connected with the higher reality by means of symbol. The higher reality is pictorial, an image. Its translation into the physical is through a symbol which mirrors the archetypal content it expresses. This creates a rapport between the physical and the archetypal content. This numinous structure can than be used to influence that physical reality after the point of contact has been made. Just as one who is very emotional "projects" his emotion outwards on others, and the other person is often subconsciously affected by it, likewise, this archetypal content of an emotional nature projects itself onto the physical reality it has become connected with

Examine any basic action. In any action there is the the will to act. After the will to act, an instaneous undifferentiated thought is emanated and conceptualized in the mind. Following this, thought is created, after this, the thought enters the emotions and produces a physical feeling (this is the abstract level of intelligence connecting with the body) which ultimately results in action.

So you have a 5 stage process that is instantanous to every single thing we do.

Will
Conceptualization/undifferentiated thought
Thought
Emotion
Action

Now, the mystics say that all physical reality mirrors this process. What we perceive is the lowest world, of action. What we do not see is the spiritual vitality that invests itself in the wave, or the rain. We do not see this abstract movement, but merely its manifestation. We do not see the world above this, the world of emotions, or 'angels' which are no more than formations from a higher reality which influence and direct the movements of the physical creation. Above this is even more abstract, the world of intelligences, principals or concepts. "laws" science likes to call them. These we understand, but we do not get that they are real, living entities which control the various phenomena we experience. And above this you have the root archetypes of reality. These are what are called popularly 'archangels'. Often associated with numbers and their archetypal nature.

So. As you can see, i believe reality to be much more complex and multifaceted than you do. Faith, or rational belief as i like to call it, is a necessity at this level. I cant expect to move in the physical world without telling my feet to move. Likewise, i cant experience or engage a spiritual abstract reality without subscribing to the reality of it. This is often why experiments involving intention or thought, held to the critical scientic method often turn out inconclusive. I cant approach the world of emotion and thought harboring thoughts that undermine the efficacy of the experiment. It simply doesnt work. The laws of Quantum physics dont apply to newtonian physics. Likewise, the laws of consciousness dont always apply to the physical laws we use to analyze external reality.

Strange way of accepting reality...too many folks move forward saying "they know", when it is overly appearent "nobody knows".

Like i said earlier, everything is a paradox. We know and yet we dont know. I know that there are 4 worlds. I know that gravity exists. Yet i do not know how that is. I do not know my ultimate place. My knowledge is relative. Ultimately, none of us know anything, yet some of us know more than others.

Also, to be completely honest, im not completely 'over' my issues and confusions with reality.

I still have them. Im not 'enlightened'. I get angry, scared, paranoid, etc.. I just channel those feelings in positive constructive ways (most of the time).

And this quality im developing is making me feel more self expressed. My fear of life has diminished, my fear of not being liked, or not succeeding or suffering, has diminished. This is growth to me. When one can be himself to the best of his ability, with a strong sense of value, right and wrong, and navigating life with these qualities, really makes life enjoyable and pleasant to me..

Anyways, hope im not coming off as a knowitall.

I just am fortunate to have come to know certain things that precludes from asking question upon question in life. Questioning is perfectly valid. It leads to discovery. But philosophically, too much questioning leads to problems.

It's all really a dream within a dream within a dream within a dream within a dream.

See the movie 'Inception'.

Originally posted by dontreally


descartes be G-d? He lived, and died. he demonstrates nothing of the absolute nature that G-d symbolizes. G-d is everthing, both the phenomena we experience and infinitely beyond.

I see...but not really.

Are you about to tell me the width, weight and color of God, along with his shape and accent?

Again, I am very wary of people who claim to know things nobody can know. But I do respect intuition and logical reasoning...

So I ask the logical question- how is it that you come to me as a mortal yet have the answers to what Good is and what God isn't?

Thats what i call G-d, thats what Judaism calls G-d (known as the Ein Sof - infinite light) and thats what most religions agree with what G-d is.

Oh...ok...I see now. A man told you what a man wrote, and you accepted that man's word out of faith because it resonated with you. Very odd...but understandable. It must be very easy to exist "believing" another man's word based on your willingness to "want God" in "one way", or worse "based on your limited "observations".

But what else is one to do? Be honest with her or his self and admit they do not know?

That just depends on what you think of Kabbalah and Judaism.

I spent a long time studying religions and find the Kabbalah/Judaisim to be faulty and typical of most human religions. Things based on stories and a "weakness" to "want answers" to questions these religions do a bad job of answering.

In short...I find all man made religions to be rubbish based on foolery-with-intent (sometimes good, more often bad).

The one thing I do enjoy about "most" religions, is they attempt to answer the question of "how is it possible we exist at all"...sadly all seem to deliver the same sort of "trapped-in-the-flesh" answers.

I just do not see reality as being as simple and biased as these "religions" make them out to be.

I for instance am not a Muslim, yet i respect their sufism.

I respect all people's religious rights. I would also defend them.

Not a Buddhist or hindu, yet i know theres a degree of revelation and truth there.

Faith is not knowing...knowing is not faith. But that is semantics. I just dislike (highly) when people confuse the two or try to mate them into some workable hybrid.

Same thing with Christianity/gnosticism etc. The mystical is inherently paradoxial. This is a view that the skeptic will either have to accept, or live a life of endless questioning.

I see...

I also dislike the blanket statement of "skeptic", but I understand what you mean.

There is pieces of "good" (if such a force really exists) in all things, all religions, all ideas.

..and some find delving deeper into these types of subjects as frivolous or a waste of time. I sorta think such thoughts build a person, and straying away from them limits one.

That is exactly what it is. Frivolous and a waste of time.

Lol...

It is very hard to have an honest discussion on "the truth behind reality" with someone who keeps insisting "serious thought on any subject" is frivolous and a waste of time. I can point out many people who seem to have benefited greatly from spending considerable time pondering these subjects, along with other subjects you may also find frivolous- like the actual behavior of light, the reality of substance, or the force of time...

But I won't...I'll just let you continue telling me what is a waste of "my time" in the universe, while you stand as a man on his honor alone- telling me- you know the shape, size and sound of God.

To ponder is ok. To remind yourself of the ultimate reality is necessary, but to indulge this thought and allow it to determine your course of life is a travesty in my book.

Fair enough...you are clear that this is your opinion here. Let me share mine?

You are doing exactly what you are saying in this quote. You indulge and guide yourself with ultimate reality (your God) and allow it to determine your course in life.

Heck, you even allow it to tell ME that MY mind is in frivolous territory when it dares to explore a realm unrelated to what your "indulgence" deems "fit".

Sounds hypocritical my friend.

Such a person never grows (imo) if he doesnt atleast begin to learn something about the transcendental, metaphysical reality beyond this life.

We have the same opinion here....but I would also add-

"anyone who thinks they found the secret answers to God/reality/physics is fooling themselves and instantly becomes a thing that will no longer evolve on its path"

This is where youre very confused.

No...this is where you fail to see yourself as possibly wrong...and in doing so, have become a man preaching unknowns as factual.

You cant expect to understand the medium by using the very same medium to understand it.

You understand religion by practicing religion...

You can nitpick that to bolts if you want...I don't care where this ends.

In other words, life is complex. We can understand this world up to a certain extent. going beyond is simply entering the paradoxical, as science shows us.

Ahh...science is fun when it is not attacking our religions! I'm sorry...science completely serves my religion perfectly...and I also know the paradoxical has a much better chance of being part of "the truth behind reality", then a story written.

In other words sir, I have room for paradoxes in my boxes.

Beyond this world there are also more worlds. Theres a world of emotion. A completely different dimension of the human experience. I cant understand emotion by applying emotion to understand it.

So empathy is fictional? I see...

I'm starting to wonder if you just type things to feel better in tuned with your "beliefs".

By definition, a line cant see itself.

Again...more mystical words that prove untrue. A snake can turn to see its tail, the fabric of space may very well bend, and a line need only to close its eyes to see its lids...

Point being...we can play "romantic word games" all we want...I find them dull when the topic is as "interesting" as this.

It can only see a point. To see a line needs an area, and beyond an area, well, thats currently beyond our field of vision. My point. You cant understand physical reality without moving up a dimension. Emotion is above the physical, Thought, that is, intelligence, is above emotion, and beyond the spoken thought, theres the much more abstract and etheral 'world of emanations'. This can only be experienced and not put into words.

Well, well well...you really have this whole "phenomena of existence" wrapped and ready for sale.

Again...I do not envy people who think they have found the answers to God/Reality/Physics.

Seems lazy.

You say only proofs are worth believing?

Actually, I never even hinted at such a thing.

Now I am wondering if you are even reading what I am saying or if you are just to hasty too try and sound "deep".

My stance is that nothing can ultimately be trusted as 100%...nothing...and even science allows such an incredibly unbiased conclusion.

Well. I have personally seen what Jung called a 'synchronicty' between the world of form, emotion, and this world. It is what magic is all about. This ritual which i saw actually caused the individual to levitate. Amazing, no? You would say its deception. But i, due to my theoretical and metaphysical understanding of this phenomena bequethed by my study of kabbalah reveals what many mystics already know.

Interesting...in the 60s my mother attended many of these "levitation meetings" and witnessed it doozens of times.

Now what if you learned it was a hoax?

Never mind...I doubt you are ready to shed those soft blankets of "religion" and venture further down the tunnel of life without their reassuring promises and warmth.

What happens is that the physical reality, in someway is connected with the higher reality by means of symbol. The higher reality is pictorial, an image. Its translation into the physical is through a symbol which mirrors the archetypal content it expresses. This creates a rapport between the physical and the archetypal content. This numinous structure can than be used to influence that physical reality after the point of contact has been made. Just as one who is very emotional "projects" his emotion outwards on others, and the other person is often subconsciously affected by it, likewise, this archetypal content of an emotional nature projects itself onto the physical reality it has become connected with

Wow...all that and you don't even smash Buckyballs at CERN...

I'm looking for answers...not whimsical pathways of words that sound nice.

I'm not saying you are wrong...But I am reminding you how you said earlier that taking "crazy thoughts" seriously may bring mental destruction...

And you say its frivolous to seriously debate/wonder about reality...heck, you already have it built up and painted on a stand for all to see...

Examine any basic action. In any action there is the the will to act. After the will to act, an instaneous undifferentiated thought is emanated and conceptualized in the mind. Following this, thought is created, after this, the thought enters the emotions and produces a physical feeling (this is the abstract level of intelligence connecting with the body) which ultimately results in action.

Again...I'm not new to the universe (comparatively with living humans), yet what you are saying rings as "made up" fancy talk.

If you believe what you just typed is HARD fact and absolute, then I completely see why you find "thinking" about "certain topics" to be frivolous...

So you have a 5 stage process that is instantanous to every single thing we do.

Will
Conceptualization/undifferentiated thought
Thought
Emotion
Action

Look, we can make it 6...or 7...we can put "thought and will" together to make one, and/or add "energy" to it to add another.

Please...you are just trying to make logic appear out of thin air. No offense, but it is silly (imo) to make a road map for ALL ACTIONS and then just smile and say the number five...as if you made some headway towards a legitimate answer.

That five step program you have just built can be shown to be wrong on many observable levels with ease.

You place your reality in a basket that proves to not hold water to well...I find it safer to say "I do not know".

Sure the babes don't end up thinking your a super smart guru...but you remain honest to yourself and the one you are speaking with.

So. As you can see, i believe reality to be much more complex and multifaceted than you do.

HA! I almost spit coffee...

I say- "we can not prove anything, and even paradoxes may surly be involved. That God can not be defined by logic or man, nor can we grasp its true nature"

You say- Blah blah blah- quote from a bible- blah blah blah- quote from a script- blah blah blah- gut feeling is fact.

Sir...you have just spent three pages telling me the exact nature and function of God and the reality I find myself existing within...how the hell is that "believing reality to be much more complex and multifaceted"???!

Sir, you have misquoted, misunderstood me in a rush to gush on about fabrications of your own belief systems, AND GONE SO FAR as to warn me about wasting my time "thinking" in a direction you find "frivolous"

Sir...forgive me this...but your entire view on me seems 2 dimensional, and your inability to even "consider" you may be wrong about something as "epic" as the "nature of reality", is dumbfounding.

Like i said earlier, everything is a paradox. We know and yet we dont know. I know that there are 4 worlds.

Well, if everything is a paradox...do you admit to the chance or probability that your limited human mind may be wrong?

I know that gravity exists. Yet i do not know how that is. I do not know my ultimate place. My knowledge is relative. Ultimately, none of us know anything, yet some of us know more than others.

Yes...and those who insist on "knowing the most" are usually those most fooled by their own ego and weakness to need "comfortable answers".

I'm glad you acknowledge that nobody knows anything for sure...gee, took you three pages to ultimately agree with my first post here that you decided to blatantly "debunk or something".

I'm very pleased to be the one telling the world "I do not know the answers to reality's greatest mysteries".

I would be ashamed of myself if I had the gall to "tell others" what is, and what is not possible...

Thanks for this little time we have just shared. If you do not mind, I will leave it here. I find your "complex and multifaceted" idea of the real world around us to be a bit "old" and "limited".

MM

Holy cow, you guys are making this way too complicated.

It's all just a dream. An illusion. "It's just a ride".