Igniting Nano Thermite without Detcord - A Plausible Theory

Some of you may know I have been researching nano materials as a compliment to Jones' science paper.

With further study I have found new technologies available to remotely and accurately time the ignition of
energetic materials. Some people frequently ask, "How did they plant nanothermite in the building without
setting it off with aircraft impacts?", or "Why didn't they find any detonators, or Detcord in the debris"?

We know through several published and publicly available documents that nanomaterial can be tailored to
react at desired temperatures, impact forces, friction, etc. You may reference these facts by reading lab
reports of:

Sol-Gel Processing of Energetic Materials, Lawrence Livermore National Labs.
T.M. Tillotson .
L.H. Hrubesh
G.L. Fox
ILL. Simpson
R.W. Lee
R.W. Swansiger
L.R. Simpson

Once the material has been produced to the required parameters, micro circuitry can be used to initiate the
process. The reference to this topic can be found in a paper called, "Microchip Ignition of Nanothermite Materials"

Some excerpts of this summary include:

Miniaturized ignition systems based on microfabrication techniques are appealing
due to their small size, integrated circuit (IC) compatibility, low energy consumption, and
inexpensive batch fabrication[1]. These micro-devices find applications to ignite smart
munitions and initiate at selected points.

Nanoenergetics, specifically nano-engineered thermites, exhibit unique
combustion performance and sensitivity characteristics that place them in a class of their
own. The main characteristic that sets them apart is the ability to tune their performance
and sensitivity from that of conventional propellants to high-explosives [2,3,4]. It is the
controllability of combustion properties that make them suitable for use in a wide range
of micro-devices applications

One useful characteristic of a versatile ignition source is the
ability to trigger it using CMOS circuits, thus opening the possibility for unique
applications by use of simultaneous, or sequential, triggering of the events with great
precision. This requires low-voltage and low-current operation of the device.

[atsimg]http://files.abovetopsecret.com/images/member/6a82a8457e20.jpg[/atsimg]

These circuits can be printed on glass like substrates.

*CMOS = Complementary metal–oxide–semiconductor which is a tech acronym for parts found
in everyday computers and home electronics.

Using this type of circuitry can allow for RF (radio frequency) transmitting which eliminates the need
for wires, Detcord, or any other conventional methods of setting charges. This may also explain why
there were no obvious signs of demolition igniters, or detonation wire in the debris.

Although this is a theory, it sure lends itself to making a quicker and easier rigging of a 110 storey
building. Imagine the time saved by having these tiny microcircuits in place instead of wires stringing
from floor to floor.

You would simply place the circuit in the specific location and walk away. Ignition happens via a
computer program and transmitted by radio frequency (like a cell phone signal).

Sources and Authors

1 C. Rossi, D. Estève, Micropyrotechnics, a new technology for making energetic microsystems:
review and prospective, Sens. Actuators, A, 120 (2005) 297–310.
2 R. V. Shende, S. Subramanian, S. Hasan, S. Apperson, K. Gangopadhyay and

S. Gangopadhyay, P. Redner, D. Kapoor and S. Nicolich, Nanostructured Energetic Materials,
Session M, 25th Army Science Conference, Orlando, FL, 2006.

3 B. Mehendale, R. Shende, S. Subramanian, S. Gangopadhyay, P. Redner, D. Kapoor, S.
Nicolich, Nanoenergetic Composite of Mesoporous Iron Oxide and Aluminum Nanoparticles, J.
Energ. Mater., 24 (2006) 341–360.

4 S. Apperson, R. Shende, S. Subramanian, D. Tappmeyer, S. Gangopadhyay, Z. Chen, K.
Gangopadhyay, P. Redner, S. Nicholich, and D. Kapoor, Generation of Fast Propagating
Combustion and Shock Waves with Copper Oxide/Aluminum Nanothermite Composites, Appl.
Phys. Lett., 91 (2007) In publication.

5. M. Hossain, S. Subramanian, S. Bhattacharya, Y. Gao, S. Apperson, R. Shende, S. Guha, M.
Arif, M. Bai, K. Gangopadhyay, and S. Gangopadhyay, Crystallization of amorphous silicon by
self-propagation of nanoengineered Thermites, J. Appl. Phys., 101, (2007), 054509.

6 S. Son; B. Asay; T. Foley; R. Yetter; M. Wu; G. Risha, Combustion of Nanoscale Al/MoO3
Thermite in Microchannels, J. Propul. Power, 23, (2007) 715-721.

There was a skit in the movie, "Monty Python and the Holy Grail" over how King Arthur obtained a coconut. The explanations get more and more fanciful to explain how coconuts got to England, with swallows carrying coconuts on a stick held between their beaks (african swallows, not european swallows), that the answer gets so ridiculous that it becomes a comedy skit in itself. Then, there are these theories on how the towers were destroyed-

-They were brought down by controlled demolitions
-Not just any controlled demolitions, but SECRET controlled demolitions
-They weren't ordinary explosives, but actually thermite
-Not just ANY thermite, but nano thermite that explodes AND melts steel
-it was a new super nano thermite that can be painted on the steel to make it undetectable
-they didn't need det cord becuase all the detonators were set off by radio remote control
-not just ANY radio remote control but microscopic radio control chips to make it undetectable

...as well as all sorts of speculations about how secret moles had been planted in the building security years ago to let the secret demolitionists in undetected, as well as all the workers at ground zero hired to cart all the melted steel away to cover it up, as well as faked hjackings and staged terrorist attacks using planes to cover up these secret super nanothermite that were snuck in and planted undetected and set off with microscopic radio remote control chips, as well as WTC 7 blown up entirely for shock and awe's sake, as well as all the engineers in FEMA and NIST paid off to make up a fake cover story. This HAS to be the way the towers were destroyed because "the explanation that fires can destroy a steel skyscraper is too silly to take seriously".

Of course.

Another thing to research might be changes (if there were any) by the FCC in broadcast frequencies before 9/11.
If sol-gel thermitic substances were ignited by remote then they would have to have had access to unique broadcast bands that were not available for use for others.
Another anomaly that showed up on 9/11 was the presence of microscopic spheres of molybdenum found the in the dust inside the Deutsche bank building, something possible only at temperatures above 4,800 F. These can only be accounted for by the presence of thermitic materials. I'll see if I can find the reference for that.
Keep up the research, I think you're on the right track Turbo.

So what keeps this stuff from recieving a stray signal and prematurely detonating?

Molybdenum is found in aircraft engine oil, grease and in aircraft brake pads.

Next!

reply to post by turbofan


Wow! All that but for some reason you actually find it hard to believe that a huge plane, filled with jet fuel, flying near supersonic speed and crashing directly into the builidng, an event witnessed by thousands and millions, could have casued sufficient damage to the building to initiate a collapse.

This thread is not about planes and jet fuel fires. I believe planes hit the towers; no debate there however
the aircraft cannot account for the energetic residue found in the dust (or other anomalies we will not discuss here).

This thread is not about energetic materials, or red/gray chips. I have another thread in this forum if you'd
like to debate me futher. Look up, "Jone's Science Paper - Common Arguements Addressed".



reply to post by JIMC5499


There are several explanations as to why the mirco detonators were not sensitive to commonly use RF bands


1. The RF required to trigger these devices may have been outside of public frequency band.

2. The RF signal used as a carrier frequency is FM modulated with a specific code to activate a central
mircoprocessor, or even logic within the microdetonator. This is the same process used in your stereo
FM radios...it's not the carrier frequency that plays music on your radio - you cannot hear anything outside
of ~ 18 Hz - 20 KHz, it's the modulated signal you are listening to which has been amplified by your stereo
system.

Carrier signals that are used for cell phone, or SATCOM are in the Megahertz (MHz) to Gigahertz (GHz) ranges.

3. The devices may require an enable signal (coded) prior to use of the common carrier frequencies.

We do know that cell phone and communications were "knocked out" by the aircraft (or other means), and
this would open up remote RF antennas to transmit a trigger signal.

Originally posted by turbofan
There are several explanations as to why the mirco detonators were not sensitive to commonly use RF bands


1. The RF required to trigger these devices may have been outside of public frequency band.

2. The RF signal used as a carrier frequency is FM modulated with a specific code to activate a central
mircoprocessor, or even logic within the microdetonator. This is the same process used in your stereo
FM radios...it's not the carrier frequency that plays music on your radio - you cannot hear anything outside
of ~ 18 Hz - 20 KHz, it's the modulated signal you are listening to which has been amplified by your stereo
system.

Carrier signals that are used for cell phone, or SATCOM are in the Megahertz (MHz) to Gigahertz (GHz) ranges.

3. The devices may require an enable signal (coded) prior to use of the common carrier frequencies.

We do know that cell phone and communications were "knocked out" by the aircraft (or other means), and
this would open up remote RF antennas to transmit a trigger signal.

edit on 4-11-2010 by turbofan because: quoting and format

The flaw in your logic is simple. You do not take induction into consideration. A length of any conductor can generate a weak electrical current from a radio signal. The papers that you have posted state that the ignitor can be activated by a charge of millivolts, well induction can generate millivolts. Since induction is a function of the frequency wavelength in ratio to the length of the conductor, it would be impractical as well as dangerous to place a detonator of this type in a building full of electromagnetic interference.

I've read over most of the papers that you have posted and I think you are graspng at straws. Even if this "nano-thermite" was used, you would still require a large quantity to melt through a steel beam. You would still have the problem of keeping a high-temperature molten material in contact long enough to melt through a steel beam. All that is described in these papers is a way of making thermite more efficient and methods of reliably igniting it.

As I have said in previous posts, the beams did not have to melt, they just needed to be heated to a point where their Yield Strength was reduced enough to cause their failure. The aircraft impacts destroyed enough of the load bearing structure to increase the load on the surviving parts of the structure. This added to the heat of the fires was enough to cause a failure in the remaining structure. The increase in temperature could have been as low as 500 degrees F if the increased load was enough.

As far as "energetic elements" are concerned you had aluminum, magnesium, molybdendum, beryllium and titanium from the aircraft, plus what ever else was in the towers. I would be suprised if you didn't find traces of these in the dust caused by the collapse.

reply to post by turbofan


One quick question - have you ever seen thermite intitiated? Not on youtube or other videos - up close and personal? I regularly see 5-6 pound set ups initiated - it is blinding in broad daylight. I can't even imagine the light generated from tons of the stuff.

This idea is silly on so many levels and that is just one.

reply to post by turbofan


We can fly men to the moon, the atomic bomb, wireless internet technology, the F-18 fighter and Echelon systems, and yet... somehow the OP could NEVER happen... well that sounds like a distinct lack of imagination of the part of people who disagree. The very premise of the OP is correct because the OP is saying here is something interesting, and let's try to prove it true or false. I saw in a cartoon once, a character said anything is possible with a suitable plan. Go on turbo, been enjoying your threads. -

Watergate, Iran-Contra, the Suez crisis, Diego Garcia, the fall of the Shah and yet to some its incomprehensible that 9/11 was not an inside job.

reply to post by yyyyyyyyyy

We can fly men to the moon, the atomic bomb, wireless internet technology, the F-18 fighter

We were able to do all those things because we abandoned magic and instead opted to follow the path of science and fact.

Imagination is a wonderful thing- in art, literature, entertainment but if you want to excel in the real world you need to keep some feet on the ground.

Originally posted by yyyyyyyyyy
We can fly men to the moon, the atomic bomb, wireless internet technology, the F-18 fighter and Echelon systems, and yet... somehow the OP could NEVER happen... well that sounds like a distinct lack of imagination of the part of people who disagree.

It's not a lack of imagination, it is not wanting to believe in the absurd. The amount of "nano-thermite", the number of "miracle detonators" and the placement of these components without discovery all go against this being possible. I'd believe "micro-nukes" in the basement before I would believe this. The major FACT against all of this bull# is that the collapse started at the areas where the aircraft struck the towers. Plain and simple.


I did find the papers to be interesting reading though.

reply to post by JIMC5499


I'd love to talk electronics with you. Having 17+ years experience in the field I can tell you your concern has
zero weight.

Induction is of no concern.

Do you know what filters are, and what they do?

Do you know what an FM modulated signal is and how induction cannot reproduce a coded signal?

Sorry but random noise, and stray signals cannot activate a circuit which is designed to receive a specific
frequency and a code on top of that.

reply to post by turbofan

You would simply place the circuit in the specific location and walk away.

This is probably my favorite line. Almost sounds like an infomercial.

"Thats right folks!! Just place the convenient microchip on the nanothermite coated beam you want cut and walk away!! No more messy detonation chords, magnesium igniters or other complicated demolition devices! Just peel and stick and watch your false flag unfurl"!

reply to post by hooper



It says place the "circuit".

If you know what RF is (used with a wireless remote operated device), then yes...you place the circuit where it's
needed and that's all there is to setup.

No wires to connect. No detcord needed.

This technology exists. You probably use it everyday.

I've posted papers on nano-circuits and thermite igniters. It's right there for you to read.

reply to post by hooper


Kinda tough to see something that's encased within an elevator shaft ... unless you believe light can pass
through steel, concrete, wall board, etc.

Also, there is video evidence of flashes going off which were picked up by camera with varying distance from
the towers.

Anyway, this is going off topic now.

Back on the subject on remotely igniting energetic materials.

More evidence of RF triggered demo charges. This is no longer plausible; it is possible. It has been done, and
it's happening.

It would make total sense to use radio controlled cutter charges to reduce time of rigging a 1/4 mile high
building and the obvious absense of any detcord that would expose the demolition. Another benefit of
radio control is the distance available to control the devices.

Once again, there is zero concern for induced inteference because of modulation, filtering, shielding, and
signal coding.

I'll be sending this off to Dr. Jones for his comments.

Source:

Weapons of the Navy Seals

[atsimg]http://files.abovetopsecret.com/images/member/806533f936d1.jpg[/atsimg]

Originally posted by GoodOlDave
as all the engineers in FEMA and NIST paid off to make up a fake cover story. This HAS to be the way the towers were destroyed because "the explanation that fires can destroy a steel skyscraper is too silly to take seriously".

Of course.

edit on 4-11-2010 by GoodOlDave because: (no reason given)

dave (t)rolling again... and making up his stories...

Have i missed something or did the NIST Report fail to analyze how building 7 has collapsed. They have no scientific conclusion as to what has happend to Building 7 but im sure you can enlighten us. What the Fema Report has to do with this topic you would still have to explain.

The last sentence at least is true. Fire cant destroy steel framed buildings as we have seen in History, no matter how many diesel generators, gas pipes etc. explode, it is too silly to be taken seriously.

Thanks for the Input Dave... again just your OPINIONS, not facts nor evidence, just your Opinions.
Funny that they still have no explenation to what actually happend to WTC 7, but im sure you the almighty, allknowing have one.

Originally posted by TrueFalse
dave (t)rolling again... and making up his stories...

Have i missed something or did the NIST Report fail to analyze how building 7 has collapsed. They have no scientific conclusion as to what has happend to Building 7 but im sure you can enlighten us. What the Fema Report has to do with this topic you would still have to explain.

Yes, you've missed quite a lot, apparently. It was FEMA that analyzed the collapse of towers 1 and 2. It was NIST that analyzed the collapse of WTC 7...and it's not a trick question as to why the FEMA report is relevent in a thread titled, "Igniting Nano Thermite without Detcord", guy.

The last sentence at least is true. Fire cant destroy steel framed buildings as we have seen in History, no matter how many diesel generators, gas pipes etc. explode, it is too silly to be taken seriously.

If you are basing this statement on your own experience in materials engineering or in fire prevention, or from analyzing the condition of the steel recovered from WTC 7, or even from questioning the witnesses who were there, then I will listen to what you have to say. If OTOH you're simply mindlessly quoting some sexy sounding drivel you saw in, "Loose Change", then you'll excuse me if I laugh out loud.

Before you put your foot in your mouth again, maybe you should actually READ the NIST report and familiarize yourself as to what it actually says, rather than guessing and making stuff up?

More informaiton to support "why the aircraft did not set off the charges".

Additional data shows that the fires in the towers were not as hot as stated by the OCS.

Open air burning temperatures: 287.5 °C (549.5 °F)

Flash point: > 38 °C (100.4 °F)
Autoignition temperature: 210 °C (410 °F)
Freezing point: < −47 °C (−52.6 °F) < −40 °C (−40 °F)
Open air burning temperatures: 287.5 °C (549.5 °F)
Density at 15 °C (59 °F): 0.775 kg/L - 0.840 kg/L
Specific energy > 42.80 MJ/kg

Source:
en.wikipedia.org...

Also reference the LLNL documents that state nano engineered materials can be tailored to react at
specific temperatures.

It would be reasonable to expect the charges within the impact zone (if any installed there) would have reacted
under the impact, or even localized fires, however any charges shielded by concrete floors, wall board,
steel columns, etc. would have not ignited.

DSC tests of the unreacted chips by Jones/Farrer require ~ 430'C to ignite (significantly more than jet fuel can achieve in open air)

Originally posted by GoodOlDave

Originally posted by TrueFalse
dave (t)rolling again... and making up his stories...

Have i missed something or did the NIST Report fail to analyze how building 7 has collapsed. They have no scientific conclusion as to what has happend to Building 7 but im sure you can enlighten us. What the Fema Report has to do with this topic you would still have to explain.

Yes, you've missed quite a lot, apparently. It was FEMA that analyzed the collapse of towers 1 and 2. It was NIST that analyzed the collapse of WTC 7...and it's not a trick question as to why the FEMA report is relevent in a thread titled, "Igniting Nano Thermite without Detcord", guy.

The last sentence at least is true. Fire cant destroy steel framed buildings as we have seen in History, no matter how many diesel generators, gas pipes etc. explode, it is too silly to be taken seriously.

If you are basing this statement on your own experience in materials engineering or in fire prevention, or from analyzing the condition of the steel recovered from WTC 7, or even from questioning the witnesses who were there, then I will listen to what you have to say. If OTOH you're simply mindlessly quoting some sexy sounding drivel you saw in, "Loose Change", then you'll excuse me if I laugh out loud.

Before you put your foot in your mouth again, maybe you should actually READ the NIST report and familiarize yourself as to what it actually says, rather than guessing and making stuff up?

hahah i really love you men, you are my favourite debunker here.

First of all, im only talking about building 7 cause then you have no excuse of repeating that a plane had crashed into it.

I also love your bashing of "Loose Change" and Dylan Avery. You dont probably realize that Loose Change is something like a kickstart. You listen to their claims, and ivestigate yourself, watch other documentations, read books about this topic, etc.
Your are always playing this card and it really gets old and boring.

back to Topic.

I dont even know why your posts on ATS here are not blocked, caus you are 90 % Off Topic. What has your First Post to do with the Topic "Igniting Nano Thermite without Detcord". You babble something about Monty Pyton, then some conspiracie word and thats it.

Shouldnt you be trying too "debunk" why a Wireless Ignition isnt possible, cause im pretty sure what this thread was about. It just shows that its possible, nothing more nothing less. What you read into this thread is only your own Paranoia...