Originally posted by civilchallenger
Companies using slave labor or child labor can and will be boycotted. That is why companies like Wal-Mart take some steps (though arguably not enough) to avoid that. Consumer boycotts themselves often don't make a big dent, but the resulting press and often does make a dent in the companies profit, and their image can be irreparably damaged. The market self-regulates against slavery and child labor.

I am curious why you might assume that consumers are in the know about such things. I am further curious why Apple has not crashed due to these boycotts yet. Just a little curious. Most people I know have no idea who makes what they buy or where it is made. Most people I know just assume there is no slave labor involved because that is an icky thought. We know Apple uses slave labor. How are they doing?

Originally posted by Curiousisall
I am curious why you might assume that consumers are in the know about such things. I am further curious why Apple has not crashed due to these boycotts yet. Just a little curious. Most people I know have no idea who makes what they buy or where it is made. Most people I know just assume there is no slave labor involved because that is an icky thought. We know Apple uses slave labor. How are they doing?

If nobody cares if Apple is supports slave labor and they are engaged in that as you claim, then democracy is working well, as its only fitting nothing would be done about if people don't care about it. But, I don't really believe Apple is using slave labor. Even with the great number of people putting their faith in politicians, enough of us rely on things that actually work, like boycotts, that it by and large stops such things from happening.

If people are against child labor as I believe, and yet Apple is really using it, then it sounds like people have foolishly put their faith in government to stop such things when in fact they them self are responsible for it continuing when they buy Apple products. What people need to do is start taking responsibility for their actions instead of passing the buck to politicians with agenda's of their own. If people are going to rely on politicians to stop slave labor for them, they are fools and they don't believe in democracy, which is government by the people, not government by the politicians. In a democracy the people are the leaders and politicians are the followers. That is the form of government I support. A form of government by which people delegate off their authority off so they don't worry about slave labor is not democracy.

If Apple is really using slave labor then the obvious thing to do is free the slaves at gun point and detain the slave holders. Such a thing is legal using a citizens arrest, so long as you have evidence. So, since you care so much you can be the one to pay the citizen police force to put a stop to it. That is the kind of thing I give my money to. (though I'm in terrible shape at the moment and could not help at the moment). That is one of the infinite number of ways voluntary taxes can work with police work.

The Republics around the world right now are the weakest imaginable form of democracy... many don't even consider them to be democracy at all. Its time to take democracy to the next logical step so that it can be a legitimate and true form of government by installing the element of consent. We already know Republic + Crony Capitalism leads to fascism. Thats what the US is about right now. And we know Republic + Socialism leads to communism. Western Europe is in the process of proving that. What by the numbers seems to lead to dramatic success and happiness is democracy by consent + free markets.

Originally posted by civilchallenger
6. Reduce overseas military bases from about 700 bases to about zero bases.

7. Decriminalize all drugs including crack cocaine as its effective harm to society is actually less than alcohol, the most hard drug there is based on total harm done. This will save thousands of lives each year because the drug wars will stop.

I singled out just two of your bullet points, because these are exceptionally childish. How can you even start believing that the US doesn't need to project power to guard its various interest abroad, is beyond me.

As to the drugs, your expertise in these matters is patently zero. While I agree that alcohol is a dangerous beast, there is stuff out there that so addictive it's just pure hell, as sadly some of my former friends found out. You just don't know what you are talking about (well, what else is new?).

Originally posted by Exuberant1
Opiates are particularly horrible and their cost and effects can drive people to all many of desperate acts, but when they can purchase all the opiates their body can use for only five dollars per days (or free, if they're receiving social assistance), well that allows them to get back on track quite fast.

Interesting, you describe the recovery is something routine -- they just quit? I thought the fact that Kurt Cobain shot his brains out had nothing to do with the price of scag he was using.

They are still addicted, but they get to keep their pride and are in a better position to enter recovery than they would be if they were on the illegal stuff.

I can agree with some of that. Yet I've seen cases of destructive use of C (to the point of heart problems), which make me wonder.

Originally posted by buddhasystem
I singled out just two of your bullet points, because these are exceptionally childish. How can you even start believing that the US doesn't need to project power to guard its various interest abroad, is beyond me.

As to the drugs, your expertise in these matters is patently zero. While I agree that alcohol is a dangerous beast, there is stuff out there that so addictive it's just pure hell, as sadly some of my former friends found out. You just don't know what you are talking about (well, what else is new?).

I believe my level of maturity based on the bullet points you highlight is several levels up from your view on those issues.The idea that the US needs more than zero overseas bases has no merit. You can't just claim some obscure thing about "interests" and claim you have some kind of argument for overseas bases. I've never seen such a waste of money in my life. I challenge you to justify any single one of our foreign bases. Our troops will withdraw from their base in Germany and the next thing you know Hitler will rise back to power? He's dead. You are stuck in the 1940's! And of course there is our newest permanent bases in Iraq. Again, well beyond pointless sums that up that giant waste in Iraq as if the bases there could possibly serve any purpose besides money in the toilet.

Strange that someone who I would think was a fan of Buddah could actually be so nationalistic as to pretend American's interests should be held higher than oh say... Mexican's interests. Are you going to tell me with a straight face that you value people based on geographic coordinates supplied by the US government? Because clearly that is what you imply with your message. Nationalism is childish... a religious cult that values people based on the geographic coordinates of their place of birth, obviously an arbitrary and pointless number.

As for crack cocaine, my body is my choice. While it may be a bad argument against abortion is a great argument for me taking crack cocaine without you shoving your morals down my throat. If I want to grow the coca plant that is my choice and you have no business telling me what plants I can grow in my own yard. You also have no right to stop me from ingesting whatever plants I wish to ingest. This should be common sense, but the problem is there are control freaks (such as your self) who wish to impose your authoritarian world view upon me. You only have a right to stop me if I harm others against their will.

Did Budda go around shoving his morals down people's throat? Did Jesus do that? I believe both of those people had a very good world view that politics not the answer. Love is the answer, and destroying people's lives because you don't approve of their personal choices such as which plants they like in their yard does not show love. Its very strange how so many people claim to admire those figures and yet in large part ignore the examples they set in favor of political snake oil.

Cocaine was a fully legal and obscure substance a few decades ago. Then the government banned it and it became both widespread and popular. My level of expertise on the topic is high because I read about the previous attempt at prohibition during the 1920's. It failed in a hail of gunfire that left many dead. If you learn about that, you can increase your expertise in the area and form more accurate opinions on good solutions for drug problems. That prohibition was overturned because prohibition was proven ineffective and combating alcohol use but successful at creating violence. Likewise, the next round of prohibition was even more unsuccessful and has resulting in thousands and thousands of violent deaths (every single year when counting all countries). But rather than acknowledge yet the same failures of the 20's, people like yourself chose to live in denial, because you are just too well indoctrinated in the false religion known as US Nationalism to believe any differently.

Hopefully in the future you will chose to focus on facts about what works and what does not in real life rather than focusing on my level of maturity.

Originally posted by babybunnies
The Republicans want to, as Fareed Zakariah eloquently put it on Bill Maher last night, have a "magic jar" that lets them cut taxes and cut the deficit, all without cutting Military Spending, Medicare, Medicaid, Social Security, or Education.

The politicians in the USA need to take a good hard look at the sorts of cuts that just happened in the UK and Ireland, combined with not only letting Bush era tax cuts expire but also possibly increasing either income tax or adding a sales tax.

It's the only way out of this mess. Drastic cut in spending, drastic increase in incoming Tax Receipts.

Quick logic break for you hommie:

When you cut corporate taxes, history has proven that those corporations take that new hunk of cash and invest it into research and development or capital expansion.

That means they hire people and create jobs and new technologies.

That's why they think they can cut taxes and grow the economy. Government doesn't make jobs, private sector does.

Originally posted by civilchallenger

Originally posted by buddhasystem
I singled out just two of your bullet points, because these are exceptionally childish. How can you even start believing that the US doesn't need to project power to guard its various interest abroad, is beyond me.

As to the drugs, your expertise in these matters is patently zero. While I agree that alcohol is a dangerous beast, there is stuff out there that so addictive it's just pure hell, as sadly some of my former friends found out. You just don't know what you are talking about (well, what else is new?).

I believe my level of maturity based on the bullet points you highlight is several levels up from your view on those issues.The idea that the US needs more than zero overseas bases has no merit. You can't just claim some obscure thing about "interests" and claim you have some kind of argument for overseas bases.

You can't state the sort of thing that you stated and claim that you are not exceedingly naive. You seem to live in an artificial world where hard drugs aren't toxic and addictive, where the planet is populated by nations who are extremely friendly to the US and have no intentions of encroaching on each other's and the US interests, be it oil, minerals or shipping lines. If you think that the US economic dominance in the 20th century materialized out of thin air and based on good will of everybody from China to USSR, you must truly be dreaming.

I've never seen such a waste of money in my life. I challenge you to justify any single one of our foreign bases. Our troops will withdraw from their base in Germany and the next thing you know Hitler will rise back to power?

No, but Russians might get ideas about the Baltic region, my dear expert in geopolitics. Or Georgia. Or who knows what.

Strange that someone who I would think was a fan of Buddah could actually be so nationalistic as to pretend American's interests should be held higher than oh say...

Oh Gosh, see, I am an American and have enough of common sense to support my country over Japan, for example.

Cocaine was a fully legal and obscure substance a few decades ago.

What's your knowledge of this substance and actual effect it has on people?

But rather than acknowledge yet the same failures of the 20's, people like yourself chose to live in denial, because you are just too well indoctrinated in the false religion known as US Nationalism to believe any differently.

Oh, the naivete galore...