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Revelation; Seven thunders- time running out.

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posted on Oct, 31 2010 @ 05:08 PM
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I want to offer some thoughts on Revelation ch10.

This chapter is part of the account of the "seven trumpets". A little before the seventh trunpet is sounded, John finds himself being sent on a mission to the world.

So I'm going to be asking the question; what is the purpose of John's mission?

The message of this chapter comes through John's encounter with a great angel, which echoes and "updates" a couple of similar encounters in the Old Testament.

One such meeting is in Daniel's first vision.
In Daniel ch10, the prophet is standing on the banks of the Tigris. He lifts up his eyes and sees "a man clothed in linen".
The figure is standing above (showing authority over?) the waters of the river, as ch12 makes clear.
The man has a face "like the appearance of lightning". His arms and legs have a brightness "like the gleam of burnished bronze".- Daniel ch10 vv4-6
In the rest of the vision, the figure tells Daniel what to expect from a great king who makes war on God and on his people, until God intervenes.
At the end of the vision, Daniel asks a very important question;
"How long shall it be before the end of these wonders?"
Then he sees the figure raising both hands to heaven;
"And I heard him swear by him who lives for ever that it will be for a time, two times, and half a time".
Once that point is reached, "the shattering of the power of the holy people" would come to an end, and "all these things would be accomplished".- Daniel ch12 vv6-7

WE've already seen one version of this figure in the first chapter of Revelation.
I pointed out the similarities when I was discussing that chapter; Fear Not
His face, on that occasion was "like the sun shining in full strength".
He was called "one like a Son of Man", and he identified himself with the risen Christ.

The other meeting is in Ezekiel's first vision.
In Ezekiel ch1, the prophet sees the Glory of God by the river Chebar.
As in Daniel's vision, Ezekiel reports the brightness of the figure;
"Downwards from what had the appearance of his loins, I saw as it were gleaming bronze, like the apperance of fire, and there was brightness round about him. Like the appearance of the bow that is in the cloud on the day of rain, so was the appearance of brightness round about".-Ezekiel ch1 vv27-28

Ezekiel is then shown a scroll containing "words of lamentation and mourning and woe". He's instructed to take the scroll and to eat it, and he's then told to go and speak "my words" to the house of Israel. So the scroll represents the word of God, which supplies the content of his message.
The task is easier than it might have been, because Ezekiel is not being sent "to a people of foreign speech and a hard language", but to his own countrymen, who should be able to understand him.
Nevertheless, he will find them unwilling to listen, because "the house of Israel are of a hard forehead and of a stubborn heart".
The taste of the scroll had been sweet, because it was the Word of God.
But Ezekiel leaves the meeting "in bitterness of my heart in the heat of my spirit", which is very understandable, given the terms of his task.
He's advised later that he will be addressing two kinds of people, viz. the "wicked" and those among the "righteous" who have fallen into sin. But the task in both cases is to call them to repentance- (Ezekiel ch3, passim)

The encounter in this chapter is partly modelled on both meetings.
John sees "a mighty angel coming down from heaven".
Ther's a rainbow over his head, just as there was a rainbow around God's throne in ch4, which recalls the "appearance of brightness" in Ezekiel's vision.
His face is like the sun, and he comes wrapped in a cloud, which recalls what ch1 says about the Son of Man.
His legs are like "pillars of fire", which echoes the brightness and fire found in both the Old Testament visions.
Then he sets one foot on the sea and one foot on the land, thus firmly demonstrating sovereignty over both regions.
Including, presumably, the Beast that comes out of the sea and the Beast that comes out of the land, as described in ch13.
Then he calls out with a loud voice, like a lion roaring (which may remind us of "the lion of the tribe of Judah" mentioned in ch5).

Seven thunders answer him, but John isn't allowed to write down what they say.
Which seems very strange.
Not because of the secrecy (we expect God to have secrets), but because it prompts the question;
Why is John hearing these words, in the first place, if he's not allowed to report them?
There must be something we're intended to learn from the fact that these thunders have spoken, independent of the actual content.
"Seven" is the number which points us towards God, so the voice of seven thunders would have to be God's voice, the expression of God's will.
The most obvious possibility is that he's expressing his will for judgement (and we have no "need to know" about the details).

In response (it seems) to the seven thunders, the angel lifts up his hand to heaven and swears an oath "by him who lives for ever and ever", the Creator of heaven, the earth, and the sea (which is the usual three-way division of the universe found in Revelation).
He swears that in the time when the seventh trumpet sounds there will be "time no longer"- KAIROS OUKETI, sometimes translated as "no more delay".
Then "the mystery of God should be fulfilled".
This is the moment when he "updates" the Daniel vision.
It's a declaration that the period of "a time (KAIROS), two times, and half a time", as announced by the angel in Daniell's vision, would then be brought to an end.
It implies that the world would then see what was promised in Daniel relating to the end of that period.
That is, following the intervention of God, the power of the hostile ruler would be overthrown.
And, in consequence, "the shattering of the power of the holy people" would come to an end.

So if the seven thunders are giving a decision for judgement, the sounding of the seventh trumpet looks like the moment when the decision comes into effect.

John is now told to take the scroll, which we've already seen in the angel's hand, and to eat it.
He's told that "You must again prophesy about many peoples and nations and tongues and kings".
This is the same kind of instruction that Ezekiel was given, which is why the voice from heaven says "again" (ie, "this is something which has happened before")
But there's an "updating" of Ezekiel's vision in the fact that John will be addressing the world at large, people of many tongues; whereas Ezekiel, of course, was explicitly promised that he was not sent "to a people of foreign speech".

With that exception, I think we can assume that his mission would be the same as Ezekiel's.
Let me see; that should mean that the message which God has given him should contain "words of lamentation and mourning and woe".
He would be sent both to the "wicked" and to those among the "righteous" who had fallen into sin, and his task in both cases would be to call them to repentance.
But he would presumably find that the peoples of the world were "of a hard forehead and of a stubborn heart", and that they would be unwilling to listen to him.

This mission , the final call to repentance, is made appropriate by the imminent judgement implied in the prospect of the "seventh trumpet". If the kingdom of the Beast is going to be cleared away, then this would be their final opportunity.

So, on the assumption that the episodes in this chapter follow on from each other, I think I can offer a rough translation of these exchanges;
Angel to thunders; "What do you think? Shall we go ahead?"
Thunders to angel; "Yes, the time has come. You must [details redacted]"
Angel to world; "Attention, please! With effect from the sounding of the next trumpet, the kingdoms of this world are going to be wound up".
Heaven to John; "Meanwhile, you go and give them a final warning".

The story of the "two Witnesses" in the next chapter looks like another version of the same mission.
So we might see John's mission and their mission as two different metaphors for what the Chrsitian community would be doing.

Finally, I'd like to suggest a supplementary interpretation of the seven thunders, based on the "covenant" theme.
That "rainbow" symbol first appears in Genesis, as the token of God's covenant with Noah and with the rest of mankind.
We're told that when God showed his power at Sinai "Moses spoke, and God answered him in thunder", and this exchange was the precursor of God's covenant with Israel.
Perhaps, then, these thunders are pointing towards a new covenant relationship.
The Christian church knows of one new covenant made possible through Christ.
But the description at the end of Revelation suggests that conditions in the "new Jerusalem", in the presence of God, could be a closer fulfilment of the kind of "new covenant" promised by Jeremiah, when men would not sin ("I will put my law within them"), and evangelism would no longer be necessary ("for they shall all know me")- Jeremiah ch31 vv33-34

John found the scroll sweet in his mouth, as Ezekiel did, but bitter in his stomach.
No doubt the difficulty of the task, as well as the harshness of the message, would account for the bitterness.
But the implicit promise of the restoration of God's people would be part of the sweetness.








edit on 31-10-2010 by DISRAELI because: (no reason given)




posted on Oct, 31 2010 @ 05:49 PM
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"John found the scroll sweet in his mouth, as Ezekiel did, but bitter in his stomach."

Perhaps that is a euphemism, hey? Have you ever pondered that Revelations might also be written in allegory, due to the hallucinations after ingesting mushrooms, or perhaps some sort of root, bitter like the root of wormwood? Heh.



posted on Oct, 31 2010 @ 05:55 PM
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reply to post by purplemonkeydishwasher
 

There's certainly a lot of allegory in Revelation, but I don't see a need to call on the "hallucinations" explanation. A large proportion of the imagery comes directly from the Old Testament. This is very useful when you want to know what it's getting at.




edit on 31-10-2010 by DISRAELI because: (no reason given)



posted on Oct, 31 2010 @ 09:05 PM
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reply to post by DISRAELI
 

In connection with the face of the angel "shining like the sun";
I had intended to add in a reference to Malachi ch4.
On the one hand, the Day of the Lord comes "burning like an oven" against "all the arrogant and all evildoers".
On the other hand, "for you who fear my name, the sun of righteousness shall rise, with healing in its wings"
Malachi ch4 vv1-2
Arguably, both aspects are relevant to the appearance of the "mighty angel" and the implications of his announcement about the seventh trumpet.



posted on Oct, 31 2010 @ 09:06 PM
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reply to post by DISRAELI
 

In connection with the face of the angel "shining like the sun";
I had intended to add in a reference to Malachi ch4.
On the one hand, the Day of the Lord comes "burning like an oven" against "all the arrogant and all evildoers".
On the other hand, "for you who fear my name, the sun of righteousness shall rise, with healing in its wings"
Malachi ch4 vv1-2
Arguably, both aspects are relevant to the appearance of the "mighty angel" and the implications of his announcement about the seventh trumpet.



posted on Oct, 31 2010 @ 09:27 PM
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I did'nt see this last part of 3 mentioned and could'nt help but think of it also, due to how is he speaking with tongue tied shut inside his house-

Then the hand of the LORD was upon me there, and He said to me, “Arise, go out into the plain, and there I shall talk with you.” So I arose and went out into the plain, and behold, the glory of the LORD stood there, like the glory which I saw by the River Chebar; and I fell on my face. Then the Spirit entered me and set me on my feet, and spoke with me and said to me: “Go, shut yourself inside your house. And you, O son of man, surely they will put ropes on you and bind you with them, so that you cannot go out among them. I will make your tongue cling to the roof of your mouth, so that you shall be mute and not be one to rebuke them, for they are a rebellious house. But when I speak with you, I will open your mouth, and you shall say to them, ‘Thus says the Lord GOD.’ He who hears, let him hear; and he who refuses, let him refuse; for they are a rebellious house.-Ezekiel3

and the cloudsare dust of feet?-

the LORD hath his way in the whirlwind and in the storm, and the clouds are the dust of his feet.-Nahum1
edit on 31-10-2010 by Rustami because: (no reason given)



posted on Oct, 31 2010 @ 09:34 PM
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reply to post by Rustami
 

Yes indeed, that's the next section after the part I was quoting.
Certainly very relevant to the theme of "unwilling listeners".
I didn't quote that part because I was concentrating on the verses that were getting "echoed" in Rev. ch10.
Thank you for that contribution.

As for the muteness,I get the impression that it lasted until the Lord wanted him to speak; just as his later paralysis was for a specific period.



edit on 31-10-2010 by DISRAELI because: (no reason given)



posted on Oct, 31 2010 @ 10:27 PM
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Originally posted by Rustami
how is he speaking with tongue tied shut inside his house-

I will make your tongue cling to the roof of your mouth, so that you shall be mute and not be one to rebuke them, for they are a rebellious house. But when I speak with you, I will open your mouth, and you shall say to them,

Yes, looking more closely at the later chapters, it appears that Ezekiel is acting out his prophecies mutely until at least ch12. At some point after that God loosens his tongue as he said he would do in those last words.



posted on Oct, 31 2010 @ 10:36 PM
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reply to post by DISRAELI
 


here's a few I always liked along with the idea of last Adam-

For he sent letters into all the king's provinces, into every province according to the writing thereof, and to every people after their language, that every man should bear rule in his own house, and that it should be published according to the language of every people.-Esther1.22

It is the Spirit who gives life; the flesh profits nothing. The words that I speak to you are spirit, and they are life.
-John6.63

"O earth, do not cover my blood;
may my cry never be laid to rest!-Job16

Heaven and earth will pass away, but my words will never pass away.-Matthew24.35

For why is my liberty judged by another man’s conscience? But if I partake with thanks, why am I evil spoken of for the food over which I give thanks?-1Corinthians10

For where two or three are gathered together in My name, I am there in the midst of them.-Matthew18.20

And the Spirit and the bride say, Come. And let him that heareth say, Come. And let him that is athirst come. And whosoever will, let him take the water of life freely.-Revelation22

And he said unto them, The kings of the Gentiles exercise lordship over them; and they that exercise authority upon them are called benefactors. But ye shall not be so-Luke22

But everyone shall sit under his vine and under his fig tree,
And no one shall make them afraid;
For the mouth of the LORD of hosts has spoken.-Micah4.4

law brings wrath.-Romans4.15
edit on 31-10-2010 by Rustami because: (no reason given)



posted on Oct, 31 2010 @ 10:37 PM
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7 Trumpets...

WATCH this video... It sums up the whole ops post with music by Enya, Deireadh An Tuath
edit on 31-10-2010 by CanadianDream420 because: (no reason given)



posted on Oct, 31 2010 @ 10:51 PM
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reply to post by CanadianDream420
 

Well, thank you for that link.
That video claims that the "seven trumpets" are taking place now.
However, my own view is that the "seven trumpets" chapters are describing something much more drastic than anything that is happening now. Any theory that assigns them to the present is underestimating them;
See;
Battered planet
The first woe
The second woe



edit on 31-10-2010 by DISRAELI because: (no reason given)



posted on Oct, 31 2010 @ 10:54 PM
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this may have some significant symbolism somewhere also?-
en.wikipedia.org...
edit on 31-10-2010 by Rustami because: (no reason given)



posted on Oct, 31 2010 @ 10:57 PM
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reply to post by Rustami
 

I think that link needs to be amended.
It just leads to a "disambiguation" page on the word "File".



posted on Oct, 31 2010 @ 11:41 PM
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reply to post by Rustami
 

Ah, thank you, that works now.
So they use the "winged lion" image from ancient Babylon? I suppose they could reasonably say that it had local connections.



posted on Oct, 31 2010 @ 11:41 PM
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edit on 31-10-2010 by DISRAELI because: Double post



posted on Oct, 31 2010 @ 11:51 PM
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reply to post by DISRAELI
 


no problem, interesting though eh? crown, face, wings, body, hooves, seven star, two swords etc.
edit on 31-10-2010 by Rustami because: (no reason given)



posted on Nov, 1 2010 @ 05:32 PM
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reply to post by Rustami
 

The trouble is that it's not easy to see how the imagery might be applied to anything, Biblically, because the different elements of it are associated with different parts of the Bible.
On the one hand, the "winged body" , which is a very old Babylonian iconic image. can e connected with the image relating to Babylon in Daniel ch7.
On the other hand, "seven stars" are associated with the figure of Christ in Revelation ch1, and so is a sword.
So it isn't easy to look at that picture and draw any Biblical conclusions from it one way or the other.



posted on Nov, 1 2010 @ 05:50 PM
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reply to post by DISRAELI
 


your right I think and probably why I never came to any conclusion many years ago when first looked into it-other than the individual symbols ringing a bell so to speak, but thought maybe you or someone might see something missed



posted on Nov, 1 2010 @ 06:06 PM
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Isnt it kinda funny that all the worlds prophecies seem to be comming to a point? Chatholics, I'll have to say, seem to be going through prophetic times just as Christians, Jews, Muslims, long dead religions we call mythologies, conspiracies, and now even in the realm of science. Go into the light? Run from the light in the sky?

Hold on. It'll be a bumpy ride either way.



posted on Nov, 1 2010 @ 06:29 PM
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reply to post by theRhenn
 

The idea that prophecies are being fulfilled in the near future isn't actually part of my case, as you would see from my other Revelation threads. Some other religions are believing that, for non-Biblical reasons.
Incidentally, Catholics are included amongst Christians.





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