Extend Bush Tax credits. Why ?

People have not idea that state taxes have nothing to do with tax credits, yes federal government can pass anything they want, but as off today states are gouging more than ever the tax payer locally.

It doesn't matter if the taxes expired states are going to get you. . .

Look.

I know no one wants to hear it. This is financial death. It will eventually hit us all. We can either extend stuff - e.g. tax credits, unemployment benefits, ect. but all that does is kick the can farther down the road. Tax credits imply that they are temporary. Do away with them. Give an across the board tax REDUCTION instead if you must kick the can down the road.

I for one am tired of having to face the looming collapse day in day out. Someone please grab the tiller and crash the plane already. I want off the ride.

Originally posted by OLD HIPPY DUDE
Amazing how many of you assume because I oppose the Bush tax credit I support any tax at all.

Yes, our government spends to much.

Money like power is not going to be given up by those that have it.

And the fact is the government is going to make up for their losses !

I never said I agree with it , I'm just stating a fact.

Money like power is not going to be given up by those that have it. ???

Again it’s not yours or the governments money. Yes we need to pay some taxes but hiking it up another 3-5% . Did you know the poor and middle class will have the highest percentage increases when this expires!

I just don’t understand people all up in arms about money that is not theirs.

I don’t understand people’s blind faith in the government. Why do people so blind believe government is the answer when it’s the one with all the problems.

Learn to rely on yourselves not government

“It is not what your county can do for you, but what you can do for your county” J.F.K one of the best democratic presidents.

reply to post by OLD HIPPY DUDE

1. The Bush tax credit is the government giving the wealthy a prime rib dinner and throwing the people a bone .

Wrong perspective. Look at taxes as taking a prime rib dinner from the wealthy and a bone from the average person. Each enjoy the same benefits from the government.

Now, if you actually pay attention to math, someone who has an income 150% greater than you is going to get a 150% greater monetary return on a 5% tax cut across the board. In some cases, their tax cut is going to be greater than your tax with-holdings (for people making more than 150% of your income).

So, even if you get an 8% tax cut, and they get a 3% tax cut, they will still be seeing a greater monetary return than you will. This is simple mathematics.

However, let's also figure in how much people actually pay into taxes. As it turns out - over 50% of the population receives more in raw monetary government benefits than they pay in taxes. So, the 'average people being thrown a bone by the tax cuts' are, effectively, not paying taxes to begin with.

Then you also factor in that most areas have a 7-10% sales tax, property tax, etc - the 'rich' only get to spend a fraction of what they are paid - which, at certain increments within the tax bracket, is less than what they would have been able to spend at a lower tax bracket.

2. The Bush tax credit eliminated billions from the governments (feeding trough) revenue.

Billions? That's chump change for the federal government.

3. The Bush tax credit saved individules maybe 2 thousand a year, and saved the wealthy100,000's thousands

God Forbid someone who has higher wages than me receive a larger tax cut than me. I'd be happy to have the 2K back - and that's 100K for some wealthy person to spend at the restaurant I work at. Will they spend it there? Who knows - it's their money, maybe I should think of making something they'd find so irresistible that they would spend some of that extra money on my product.

4. Who do you think is going to is going to make up for the lost revenue ?

There have been some interesting research papers dealing with "freakonomics" - lowering taxes places more capital into the hands of the economy to be freely exchanged. The increase in economic activity, over time, eventually increases the revenue to the various levels of government by several times what was 'lost' in the tax cut.

And, God Forbid we eliminate the billions of dollars of waste, unnecessary redundancy, etc in our government to compensate.

5. The City's, the Countys, the States, and the Federal Governments ARE going to make up for their losses,
weather The Bush tax credit stays in affect or not, and they are NOT going to burden the wealthy with
higher taxes.

No, it is the middle and lower classes that suffer the most. The wealthy will simply let their money sit in a bank account and ride it out. That means they are spending less - consequently, a large number of lower and middle class jobs center around convenience and service industries that cater to the wealthy classes. Someone had to buy that used car before you, or that hideously large TV sitting in the store you work at.

Raising taxes on the wealthy only decreases spending on the things the lower and middle class produce and make their incomes off of. It also serves to fuel careless, inefficient spending at the local, state, and federal level.

Raising taxes on them doesn't really 'hurt' them. But it does hurt you - or force you onto government aid programs.

im echoing camaro

ITS THEIR MONEY NOT THE GOVERNMENTS

who am i to decide whats too much for someone else to have? i am noone

i didnt earn it nor should i have any say whatsoever in what someone else does with THEIR OWN MONEY

the problem with government is that it spends far more than it takes in.

camaro is right agian curtail spending not raise taxes

are you going to continue to advocate for more fascist authoritarian totalitarian absolute rule?

reply to post by neo96


Absolutely! My money is mine...not the governments! Why they continue to want more of my money for programs that I don't condone is ludicrous!

Funny how this turned into a three way argument, not unusual for those that have an agenda to divide and conquer through confusion.
Those of you who defend the wealthy are in a whole different class of people, the same class as our corrupt politicians and the greedy, self centered wealthy.
You all lack morals, ethics and compassion.
The wealthy don't need any help defending themselfs , their actions speak louder than words, so what motivates your defense of the wealthy, are you a mouth piece for the wealthy, or are naive to the truth or are you just plain ignorant of the facts?


The wealthy have made their money off the backs of the people for years and when the people stand up for themselves the wealthy use the government to quiet the people.
Like Rockefeller did in Ludlow Colorado in 1914.

Our government is full of people who have build their careers working for big company's and entering politics only to represent the companys they worked for and not the people.A perfect of that is Dick Cheney and Haliburton.

Big business tried to fight the government back when F.D.R. was Pres.and they lost, but they did realize that they could infiltrate the government to push their agenda and buy added support with their huge profits.
The money that is being spent to get elected now a day is crazy, only the wealthy can run, or those who support the wealthy and less taxes for the wealthy and less regulations on wealthy business get elected.
Does anyone really think the common people can donate enough money to get an honest person elected ?

The real sad thing is anyone of us would do the samething as the crooked politicians if we were given the chance.

God forgive me if I say workers deserve a fair wage, because many of you think that is socialism.
I guess you feel bondage is ok ?

reply to post by OLD HIPPY DUDE


Who are you to state that people who believe in keeping the fruits of ones labor lack morals, ethics and compassion?

Take care of yourself and stop relying on government and other people to subsidize your irresponsible life choices.

I could say you lack morals since you want the government to dictate how businesses are ran, and what people do with their own money.

reply to post by OLD HIPPY DUDE


i think its immoral and unethical to steal from someone else

what you are failing to realize is what happens to one american can and will happen to you

agian its immoral and unethical to stand by and let someone else be robbed no matter what your "wealth" or "class" standing is in this world.

there are no poor,rich,educated or ignorant people those are labels that are used to divide us

and united we stand and divided we fall

i am an american looking out for my fellow american

and if you consider that immoral and unethical thats a label i can live with

what i cant live with is just to sit by and let this slide by

it may not be knocking on your door just yet but

sooner or later it will.

Originally posted by BigTimeCheater
reply to post by OLD HIPPY DUDE

 

Who are you to state that people who believe in keeping the fruits of ones labor lack morals, ethics and compassion?

Take care of yourself and stop relying on government and other people to subsidize your irresponsible life choices.

I could say you lack morals since you want the government to dictate how businesses are ran, and what people do with their own money.

edit on 28-10-2010 by BigTimeCheater because: (no reason given)

Who are you to assume I rely on the government for anything, and others to subsidize my life choices.

YOU know nothing about me or life in the real world except what the talking heads on T.V. tell you what to think.

And the wealthy know nothing about labor except hiring the cheapest.
If big business had ANY moral or ethical values the government wouldn't need to dictate how to run business's.
You , BigTimeCheater, assume to much and you need to check youself.

Originally posted by neo96
reply to post by OLD HIPPY DUDE

 

i think its immoral and unethical to steal from someone else

what you are failing to realize is what happens to one american can and will happen to you

agian its immoral and unethical to stand by and let someone else be roobed no matter what your "wealth" or "class" standing is in this world.

there are no poor,rich,educated or ignorant people those are labels that are used to divide us

and united we stand and divided we fall

i am an american looking out for my fellow american

and if you consider that immoral and unethical thats a label i can live with

what i cant live with is just to sit by and let this slide by

it may not be knocking on your door just yet but

sooner or later it will.

edit on 28-10-2010 by neo96 because: (no reason given)

[/quote

You ,neo96 ,not only assume too much you talk out of both sides of your mouth at the same time.
You know nothing about me or my life.
You claim you are an american looking out for your fellow americans, what have you done about forclosures,
what have you done about losing jobs to over seas, what have you done about the bailout of the banks ?
And yet you support the wealthy.

Please tell us all about how you look out for your fellow americans.
Talk is cheap so keep talking.

reply to post by OLD HIPPY DUDE

You ,neo96 ,not only assume too much you talk out of both sides of your mouth at the same time. You know nothing about me or my life.

really now and you know nothing about me and i don't know why you have to get personal like that.

You claim you are an american looking out for your fellow americans, what have you done about forclosures,

it is a fact i am an american and have been an american all of my life and my family has been american for over 200 years so sir i am uniquely american a real american doesnt give a damn about what someone else has or whines and complains about what he does'nt have they take care of theirs and dont expect others to take care of them.

what have you done about losing jobs to over seas, what have you done about the bailout of the banks ? And yet you support the wealthy.

well what i haven't done is taxed,regulated, created unionization nor created the department of education that has destroyed wealth of this country destroyed the human resource to teach,build and finance this country and i didn't sign any checks towards the bailouts and i support every american not just one group cause like i said
what happens to one group happens to all.

you presume you know better than me cause you simply do not know me or anything i have done in my life.

and yes talk is cheap as that complete post was nothing but a personal attack because you cant stand the thoughts of anyone else in this world that contradict your own.

this thread was a complete waste of time feel free to respond again but don't expect me to return here you didn't get your way and you resorted to denigration.

you can have the last word

reply to post by OLD HIPPY DUDE


You sir are the ignorant one here. You have no idea what you are talking about. The term wealthy has been misused over the last two years or better said since Obama came to office. I am one you would consider wealthy because I make over $250k per year. I am a general contractor and have one direct employee who makes about $100k per year in total compensation. I indirectly employee hundreds of people who all make going rate for their particular trade. I live in a modest home and live a modest life. I have a wife who works for health insurance and two kids in grade school. I give $10-$15k a year to my church/local charitable organizations. I pay a crap load in taxes, probably more than you make in a year. I do not see why you think you or the government has the right to more than the near 40% I already pay in state and federal taxes. I am not a cheat or immoral person that you claim all wealthy people must be. Before I took the chance on my one business I made $60k a year which is pretty average for my line of work. There are thousands of people, if not more, just like me. I can guarantee you if Obama raises taxes on us, there are many who will be hurt. I think you need to get a grip on who you are going after with your ignorance. Maybe you are right about the very large corporations out there, but it is not the small corporations like me who fit your stereotype. I already fund my fair share of food stamps and welfare, I don't need to fund any more.

Originally posted by OLD HIPPY DUDE



Who are you to assume I rely on the government for anything, and others to subsidize my life choices.

YOU know nothing about me or life in the real world except what the talking heads on T.V. tell you what to think.

And the wealthy know nothing about labor except hiring the cheapest.
If big business had ANY moral or ethical values the government wouldn't need to dictate how to run business's.
You , BigTimeCheater, assume to much and you need to check youself.

edit on 28-10-2010 by OLD HIPPY DUDE because: (no reason given)

Given your name, I feel the need to ask: One bad trip?

I dont know about life in the real world? Obviously you need some mental counseling because you are so far off base, I'm not sure you are still on the same planet as everyone else.

You continually whine about morals to the point where you are almost as bad as a jesus freak when it comes to assuming your morals are the gold standard. They are not. Morals are subjective.

Want to talk about ethics in business? The # 1 ethical rule in business is to provide a decent return to their shareholders. People don't go into business to enrich society, or to make the country a better place. They go into business for one simple reason: PROFIT. Redistributing said profit is NOT a function of government, no matter how much you think it should be.

It sounds like you are the one who needs to spend sometime in a place where everyone else lives...that place is called reality.

Originally posted by OLD HIPPY DUDE
Funny how this turned into a three way argument, not unusual for those that have an agenda to divide and conquer through confusion.

It is my experience that people will be confused regardless of what you do to try and enlighten or confuse them. It doesn't take an agenda.

It's like the Geico ad where the lady wants to put a name-tag on the gecko - that spacey look she gets: "But how will people know who you are?" People are like that - just look at accident reports - it confuses them that two objects cannot exist in the same place at the same time.

Those of you who defend the wealthy are in a whole different class of people, the same class as our corrupt politicians and the greedy, self centered wealthy.

You know - I've never met a greedy person with wealth. I know quite a few. A lot of them spend a lot of money around the holidays to have friends and family over - always like to gift large/smartly at celebrations (and offer to host them), and are usually the first ones to put money into the charitable causes of the organizations they are part of.

You all lack morals, ethics and compassion.

Excuse me? I have plans to be a million/billionaire. Know what one of the things I want to do is? Start up quality student and family housing focused around teaching trade skills and community projects. I don't plan on making it a profitable venture - I like seeing people learn, I like seeing people develop into a team and community.

Sure - I would have my for-profit ventures, but I want the money and power to make some large investments into making the world a better place and giving those with the will to grow and prosper a leg-up.

The wealthy don't need any help defending themselfs , their actions speak louder than words, so what motivates your defense of the wealthy, are you a mouth piece for the wealthy, or are naive to the truth or are you just plain ignorant of the facts?

What facts? You posted some facts and abuses of the current system. Yes, there are bad apples in every bunch. When people point out fundamental errors in your argument, you then proceed to "you are either corrupt or naive!" You're free to make that claim - but you appear to be out of ground to stand on.

And what actions are you talking about? Making money and spending it? So what if they parade around in limos - good day to be a limo driver or mechanic, yes?

The wealthy have made their money off the backs of the people for years and when the people stand up for themselves the wealthy use the government to quiet the people.

This doesn't make any sense, whatsoever. Sure - the 'wealthy' make money from the profits of business and investment. That is kind of what makes business work - it has to work with finite capital and cannot raise taxes every time it finds itself short on income. Sure - they can raise prices, but this doesn't work when people can choose not to buy (they cannot choose to not pay taxes). A business makes profit and creates more business with that profit. Sure - some of that goes into large pay checks that enable lavish spending, but so what? Better they spend money dig a hole and bury it.

Further - the government has no power over people... WE are the government. Quit putting it on a pedestal and acting like there's nothing you can do about it.

Like Rockefeller did in Ludlow Colorado in 1914.

You'll have to elaborate.

Our government is full of people who have build their careers working for big company's and entering politics only to represent the companys they worked for and not the people.

There will always be corruption. However, a lot of business people are very sensible and know how to run things efficiently. A way to cut back on corruption is simply to put some greater constitutional restrictions on funding bills and not tuck billions into four paragraphs within 4,000 pages of legislation passed every few months with the title purpose being "better schools."

I'd rather see business people in government rather than public educators and lawyers.

You are part of the body to be represented. Keep tabs on your representatives - if they don't represent, get some tar and feathers and show them the door.

A perfect of that is Dick Cheney and Haliburton.

Another example of this would be John Kerry and the Heinz company. Just about any company that gets caught with their hand in the cookie jar of government pork&barrel can be linked to any person in office via some method or another.

I could come from the upper echelon of a company and hit the government scene being against the government kick-backs they are getting - and if they get caught, I will be implicated as being the cause of it. The issue with Haliburton extends well back before Cheney saw office.

Big business tried to fight the government back when F.D.R. was Pres.and they lost, but they did realize that they could infiltrate the government to push their agenda and buy added support with their huge profits.

I wouldn't say business and FDR were fighting. Though FDR did establish a number of programs that have been continued well beyond their design and contribute much to government bloat, waste, etc.

The money that is being spent to get elected now a day is crazy, only the wealthy can run, or those who support the wealthy and less taxes for the wealthy and less regulations on wealthy business get elected.

Tell that to Perot and Nader. Political parties have more to do with who gets elected than monetary spending.

Does anyone really think the common people can donate enough money to get an honest person elected?

Depends upon what office. "No-Names" run for state representatives all the time and get elected. That is why the state is supposed to have more authority over the population than the federal government - and the county/city' even greater.

It would likely be impossible for you to get elected President without establishing some kind of name and history for yourself. Getting picked up by a political party is probably a good idea, too (even if it isn't one of the main republican/democrat parties).

The real sad thing is anyone of us would do the samething as the crooked politicians if we were given the chance.

Well, I'm not sure what that would be, seeing as politicians can never agree on anything.

God forgive me if I say workers deserve a fair wage, because many of you think that is socialism.
I guess you feel bondage is ok ?

Workers deserve a fair standard of living. That could be extended to mean a "fair wage" - but as cost of living is artificially inflated by higher minimum wage standards, the minimum wage will have to be increased to accommodate that standard of living, and the cycle continues until we are paying a thousand dollars for a loaf of bread and we do like Mexico and consolidate the currency (or Germany and let the Nazis blame it all on some racial/ethnic group and start another world war).

Generally speaking, the list of unfairly paid people is rather small. The places where it is the most common is in family owned/operated businesses, where the family often works for substandard pay for the sake of keeping the business alive. Otherwise, in many markets, the competition for competent employees is just as fierce as competition for market share. That means rates of pay, worker's benefits, workspace/climate, etc are all factors in competing for employees that excel and drive the business forward.

Sure - not every business embraces this concept that well, and they generally do poorly when they don't. Raw statistics dictates some will persist in spite of competition - but that is where consumer responsibility comes into play.

I'm not sure what you want, really. A world where no one is rich? A world where everyone is rich? (will there be a difference between the two?).

From where I stand, it seems you are merely jealous and hold a lot of contempt towards people who have a higher standard of living than you do. I simply don't understand the mentality that gets upset over it. No one is stopping you from achieving the same goals except two things - yourself (your perceptions and preconceptions) and government regulation. Yes, some government regulations are reasonable - you shouldn't be making explosives without a license of some kind, for instance - but over-regulation of business simply limits opportunity for economic growth.

When I see a business behaving in an unethical manner - I see it as an opportunity to do it better than them (and since most unethical business practices are simply bad for business - doing it better than them translates to running a better and superior business). When I see their waste, I see potential to do the same thing with less overhead. When I see poor employer-employee relationships, I see trained, competent, experienced people potentially willing to work in a better climate.

There's no need for contempt - it's their problem - their loss.

First of all it was you who started the personal attacks on me from the beginning of the thread, then your consent assumtions of me.
It is you who chooses to cherry pick from my comments , I do not support the way our government treats our people,I do not support our tax system, or government regulations and I do not support how many( not all ) businesses do business in this country.
I am not going to spend all day responding to you people. So i will be as short as possible.

It is not the common folk who dump toxic waste in our forests and rivers to cut cost and keep profits high.
It is not the common folk who make drugs with numerous side effects and cause death then get the government to protect them with limited liability to keep profits high.
It is not the common folk who were responsable for the Valdese oil spill or the Gulf oil spill.
It is not the common folk who are responsable for distribution of contaminated food that make people sick and cause death to keep profits high.
It is not the common folk who hire lobbyists and pay them millions to get laws and regulations changed to keep over head low and profits high.
It is not the common folk who hire high priced lawyers to drag out liabilty law suits to make sure liability compinsation is low and profits stay high.

I never said all wealthy people were bad, but most need to step on others or crush and destroy people to obtain their wealth, that is where most lack morals and ethics.
Most wealthy business people see life as a dog eat dog world. Well they shouldn't complain when the mass have had enough .

Saying I am jealious of the wealthy is just so old. What it is , is contempt for those who lack compassion for humanity , animals and the enviorment for the sake of money, power and control.
There is nothing wrong with for striving for a better life for youself and your family just not at the expense of others. Maybe if more of you hit bottom and claw your way back, you would understand.

reply to post by OLD HIPPY DUDE


Oddly enough, you keep whining about compassion, which is common for people like you.

Compassion is nothing more than touchy feely emotion based BS.

Be as compassionate as you want with your own money, but keep your feelings to yourself and out of other peoples wallets. Life is a dog eat dog world, evidently you've been eaten a few times.

reply to post by OLD HIPPY DUDE

It is you who chooses to cherry pick from my comments , I do not support the way our government treats our people,I do not support our tax system, or government regulations and I do not support how many( not all ) businesses do business in this country.

So... what DO you support?

It is not the common folk who dump toxic waste in our forests and rivers to cut cost and keep profits high.

This is so untrue it's not even funny. Do you properly dispose of compact-florescent lights? Do you properly dispose of batteries (not just car batteries, the ones in your TV remote, too)? Do you shut your lights off when you are not using them, disconnect power supplies from the wall outlet when not in use, close the blinds on your windows in the summer/open them in the winter, and other energy-reducing things? Do you properly recycle or just do the convenient thing and toss it in the trash can? Do you collect and recycle the motor oil when you do an oil change? Or do you let it run out on the ground?

You may answer yes to a bunch of these - but then turn around and ask yourself how many of the people you know - the average person - who do things like this. Most pollution is caused by the average person doing what is convenient over what is proper. And the funny thing? A lot of those "toxic chemicals" break down within hours or days to nothing. Not saying it's a good idea to pour them all over creation, but that it's not the end of the world, either.

In most cases, it's bad to simply pour out industrial wastes - they are often valued for fertilizers, lubricants, soaps (your soap was likely made from grease collected from deep-firers in restaurants) etc. The plastics you enjoy and roads you drive on are all byproducts of crude oil refinement into gasoline. Generally speaking, you can keep profits high by finding someone willing to buy your waste and make something useful out of it.

It is not the common folk who make drugs with numerous side effects and cause death then get the government to protect them with limited liability to keep profits high.

It's not possible to make drugs without side-effects. It is not possible to know how a drug will interact with your particular biochemistry and symbiotic residents (there are thousands of different types of bacteria - mainly in your GI tract, that have co-evolved with our bodies and communities, they are all but essential for survival). They don't make drugs with side-effects. They make drugs and spend ten years testing the damned things to get FDA approval and are forced to keep production facilities in the U.S. by regulations and pay hideously high wages to employees. That means your medicine is premium dollar, and the market highly restricted, which leads to profit margins as high as 10% - which is ridiculous. Anything over 5% is a sign of lacking competition.

It is not the common folk who were responsable for the Valdese oil spill or the Gulf oil spill.

True, but they are responsible for those landfills.

In all honesty, though - accidents happen. No system is fool proof or accident-proof.

It is not the common folk who are responsable for distribution of contaminated food that make people sick and cause death to keep profits high.

There are no profits in recalls.

Again, accidents happen.

It is not the common folk who hire lobbyists and pay them millions to get laws and regulations changed to keep over head low and profits high.

Lobbyists are only marginally effective. Most of the laws they deal with are regulatory in nature. Often, larger corporations are in support of market regulation and licensing as it makes it more difficult for new businesses to expand into their market.

The common folk set the precedent for government interference in business, and we can only blame ourselves for allowing businesses to use our government to further their own ends. Taking the government out of business, entirely, removes the temptation for businesses to use the government in such a manner.

It is not the common folk who hire high priced lawyers to drag out liabilty law suits to make sure liability compinsation is low and profits stay high.

Most issues like this are settled out of court because the court and legal fees are more expensive than the cost to settle. Companies don't like to go to court. It's bad publicity and more expensive than fixing the problem (covering medical costs, raw monetary compensation, etc).

Neither of which is profitable, but settling is far less expensive.

Saying I am jealious of the wealthy is just so old. What it is , is contempt for those who lack compassion for humanity , animals and the enviorment for the sake of money, power and control.
There is nothing wrong with for striving for a better life for youself and your family just not at the expense of others. Maybe if more of you hit bottom and claw your way back, you would understand.

You are categorizing 95% of a group of people off of the 5% that are bad.

When my mom was battling cancer, it was not the 'common folk' who delivered dinner to our family - it was the 'wealthy' people. When my father passed away a little less than three years later, it was not the common folk offering to assist us kids financially - it was the 'wealthy.' When our church burned - it wasn't the common folk who subsidized a lot of the reconstruction - it was the 'wealthy.'

Granted - what the common folk lack in finances has often always been offset by participation and other forms of service to the community. There are also times when someone donating money only wants to donate it if things go their way. People are people.

Perhaps all you need to do is stop being 'wealthist' about this and judge people not by the status of their finances but by the content of their character.