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What the United States is, is not what it is currently ruled by today!

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posted on Jun, 27 2004 @ 11:37 PM
(The tragedy that was the Civil War)

I could probably write a lot, and as usual, I'll probably end up doing so. But I want to try and keep things simple, categorized. I guess I'll use a list to first easily discribe America and it's "fall".

  • America is a Union of Soveriegn, Indestructable States
  • In the 1820s and 1830s, the North began to protect its Industry at the expense of the South using their larger population as leverage in the Federal Government
  • Calhoun introduced a theory of "nullification" in which a State may nullify anything the Federal Government does, after all the Feds are only a Union of the States, not the States themselves.
  • In the 1830s South Carolina nullifies a two-part tariff levied against them, in a confrontation with the Feds they win in that one of the tariffs remains nullified but the smaller less significant tariff remains.
  • By the 1850s the South is having to pay dearly so that the North can build its industry.
  • Later 1840s and 1850s abolisionists begin to insite rebellions in the South, notably Brown's attack in Virginia which takes a Great Grandnephew of George Washington hostage. This makes the South begin to stalwartly train their militias.
  • In 1860, a phenomenon called "Secessionitis" struck in which 1859 the Civil War would not even have been thinkable except by a few, and in 1861 everyone in the South was wanting out.
  • After the war the South mainly because of the Democrats is allowed back into the Union, and all but Mississippi ratify the 13th Amendment to free the slaves.
  • In 1866 the 14th Amendment is brought up as is in Congress, many oppose it so 22 Southern Senators and a New Jersey Senator is barred from voting. Ironically had the New Jersey Senator been alowed to vote his no the proposal would still have failed in the now significantly smaller Senate. He was barred because of being Constitutionally elected in New Jersey by a plurality.
  • In 1867 the 2nd Reconstruction act abolishes the Southern governments establishing military governments in lieu there-of even with all the other States that had not ratified the 14th Amendment without the 11 Southern, they could not prevent the ratification.
  • Rather than taking the amendment to the President for signing (who was currently being impeached because he would not sign) it was taken to the Secretary of State who signed it.
  • The United States since then has ceased to be a Union of anything, and the Federal Government now has full control of this nation, and as the older generations died of and people forgot, the states that once would never have signed away their soveriegnity in ratification, eventually did so, lending some "faux" legitimacy to the 14th Amendment.

    That roughly sums things up.

    For simplicity I left out the partisan issue but I may as well mention it now.

    Realize that the Republicans today and the Democrats today, have virtually switched places with their 1860s counterparts.

    In 1850s and 60s the growing Republicans were attempting to "doom" the Southern economy and slavery, and the running of Lincoln was the last straw.

    In the 1860s after the Civil War, the Democrats wanted the nation to return to "as it was", the Republicans wanted to smash the South and did so with the 14th Amendment.

    The 14th Amendment has destroyed America, creating this giant bloated 10 trillion dollars in debt on-budget, 20 trillion dollars in debt off-budget Federal Government that is "all powerful" and capable of trampling anyone's rights with-out a second glance and does so freely.

    Waco is a perfect example of Federal power.

    The 14th Amendment gives them this power, it gives the power to the Federal Government to make or break State laws and thus ignore the State's Constitution.

    This has been seen just recently when the Ten Commandments were forced out of an Alabama State Courthouse even though it was Constitutional to be there and the Alabamian people wanted it there by 70% at least!

    If Kerry is elected, it wouldn't be surprising if many State bans on certain abortions and gay marriages are "over-turned". Or attempted to be over-turned.

    The Federal Government never had this type of power, it took advantage of a situation and usurped the power for itself.

    It betrayed the States, and its people.

    The people fought to hold together a Union, instead they fueld the fires of a massive machine that when the war was done, was left unchallenged and did what it pleased, and today does as it pleases.

    Today "nullification" would be an impossible idea (even though I don't agree with it it is the principle of the thing).

    If the Federal Government wanted to step on the rights of the States, if the Supreme Court will not stop it, they can do so. Whereas in the 1830s, the States could simply tell the Feds to back off and they'd have to do it.

    If the Feds were in their Constitutional powers, the States were happy to let them do whatever, being that the States agreed upon those powers when they ratified the US Constitution.

    People here especially complain all the time about "rights being taken away".

    That is because there is no greater defender of your rights, than your State, you are the State!

    Because your State capital is no more than a few hundred miles away, in most States, it is no more than a few dozen miles away!

    Because your State assemblies and Senates have people in them who were born in your similar culture, your similar community! Your similar society!

    Because you are but one in a few millions! In some cases, one in a few hundred thousands!

    The Federal Government can not protect your rights, it is an impossibility.

    All the central governments of the earth are coercive, even our own!

    It is 300 million people, it is vast, and too busy to care about you as an individual.

    The people of the United States are enslaved, by stupidity of their heritage!

    Immigrants know nothing of what this "Union" means, they only want to become "Americans".

    They have no love for being a Californian or a Nevadan or a Floridian!

    New-borns, know nothing of their States, only this Federal Government, and they only know of the Presidential elections and ignore all the others.

    Fewer and fewer care about the State governments and the US Congress.

    As more and more power is centralized!

    I say, because the 14th Amendment was never ratified Constitutionally in the first place, the People through their States should cry for State Rights and nullify the 14th Amendment.

    Should a State wish to have its children put "Under God" in the pledge, the Supreme Court can not tell them no!

    The States are its people, the States are its Citizens, the States are therefore more incapable of abusing their Citizens' rights than the Federal Government.

    I do not want some Californian single-dad telling me in my State what to do!

    I have seen what California's communities do to its people, my cousins were raised there and turned out like crap compared to me.

    Why would I want Californians to make my laws?

    That is a great example of why we need State Rights and why the 14th Amendment is the root of all evil in our current form of Governance.

    The only concern I have, is can we be Americans without this over-powered Federal Government? I think we can, George Washington thought we could, James Madison thought we could, Alexander Hamilton, John Jay and many others thought we could.

    I think we can stay Americans, stay the greatest nation on earth even if we were to cast down our Federal Government from its high and unreachable position and put it back where it belongs.

    All we would be doing is ensuring that 100 years from now, our nation is not a police state, by ensuring that the States are the check and balance of the Federal Government.

    After all, the Federal Government is supposed to be a creation of the Union of States, not its own entity.

    This thread should be devoted to the discussion of how we should deal with this problem or whether or not you think this is a problem.

    [edit on 28-6-2004 by Banshee]

posted on Jun, 27 2004 @ 11:40 PM
May I deviate from the topic a moment here folks.

I know, I know...."stay on topic", but this is a good deviation, ok here goes.

Question, "What ATS member is most likely to be a successful USA President?"


Wait for replies to see more...

posted on Jun, 27 2004 @ 11:54 PM
LoL before that de-rails my crucial and important thread

by the way the whole topic is "(The tragedy that was the Civil War)"

Anyways, you should make that your own thread Advisor
Some kinda "presidential speech contest.

And back on topic...Technically it wasn't the "Civil War". The South had not problems within its borders, it was a solid independent nation from 1861 to 1865.

The North on the other hand, was wrought with civil disorder, Lincoln had more than 50,000 political prisoners and if you think the 1st Amendment mattered, nah, he closed down any seditionist press.

There were also active rebellions going on in the North against what was seen as "Federal usurpation of power" but no such things in the South.

The Nation had to hold together, it's a shame though that someone killed what the Nation meant.

We should take back what it meant.

posted on Jun, 28 2004 @ 12:15 AM
What parts of the 14th amendment are you speaking of, if not all of it? The first section about the jurisdiction of citizens being US? I was just hoping you could clarify the implications on the 14th amendment all on its own.

posted on Jun, 28 2004 @ 12:37 AM
I have the problem with the vague writing that states "No State shall make or enforce any law which shall abridge the priviledges or immunities of citizens of the United States;"

That there has been the running argument for Federal Judges to excersise Judicial Review over the States.

posted on Jun, 28 2004 @ 12:47 AM
Edit: I'll wait for advisors own thread about the subject.

[edit on 28-6-2004 by Agent47]

posted on Jun, 28 2004 @ 01:01 AM
You know I heard that there was a proposal to establish more federal courts with the next decade. Anybody here about this? I can't remember where I read it.

I guess the only thing to do though is to get the message out and get people to either talk to their congressman or elect one who has such a platform. I had an idea similar to the Simpson's in running a printing press and traveling around the country passing them out. That's legal under the right to free press, right, I heard the 1st amendment didn't exactly phrase it as free speech, guess I'll do some more research into it...

[edit on 28-6-2004 by Jamuhn]

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