Round 1. orange-light vs ProtoplasmicTraveler: What Does that Sign Say?

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posted on Oct, 27 2010 @ 02:38 AM
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The topic for this debate is "Astrological observations correlate to human events".

orange-light will be arguing the "Pro" position and begin the debate.
ProtoplasmicTraveler will be arguing the "Con" position.

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posted on Oct, 27 2010 @ 12:38 PM
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And so it begins – finally.

First of all I would like – in good fighter’s manor – to thank the moderators for setting this tournament up. Thank you guys a bunch for the hard work behind the scences, for organizing the judges, for setting up the subjects, for making everything possible.

A very special thank you for Semperfortis for his work and a great thank you for The Vagabond for doing the last steps getting the ball rolling.

And certainly I appreciate our readers very much. thank you for keeping in mind, that
It is fun on its own to write a debate, to do all the rebuttal, asking Socratic Questions, following strategies – all the tiny little bits that makes a debate so pleasant – but it would be nothing without you, the reader.

So thank you for being there. Thank you for coming with us on this debating path.
Thank you for keeping in mind, that English, as much as I love this language, is not my mother tongue, so please forgive me if I might stumble a bit, or if I am sometimes not able to find the right words or if grammar errors occur. I do my very best to master it and to make my thoughts clear to you. Hopefully you are able to follow.

And yeah, thanks to ProtoplasmicTraveler for being on this journey together with me – although we have been bound together by mod-deciscion, by chance or by the constellation of some planets and stars high above in the sky?


Astrological observations correlate to human events



Throughout this debate we will learn about

  • the term of astrology
  • about the history of astrology
  • the influence on human events
  • its influence on human history
  • its influence on human behavior
  • guidance of human living


and probably many more interesting observations that will come across our path.

This debate for sure is going to be a very interesting debate, a very enlightening debate, since it will lead us down to the roots of our human existence.

Humans always wanted to have a helping hand, guidance during the darkness of their existence. Some would say that this is a kind of mask for not taking responsibility on ones own life.

But there has always been a desire in mankind to be guided and protected by higher spirits.
Mankind wants to belief. It seems to be a special skill that man and woman observe the world, nature, animals and everything around them, around us and start not only to wonder what is all about but also start built up religion, start to construct faiths and science.
It is a special kind of curiosity that makes us travel this path.

A path that some think is kind of superstition but others believe to be a real help in life.

So lets have a closer look on the word Astrology

As many words in German or English language the origin of astrology is Greek.
The word is a combination of the Greek word αστον astron, which means star and λογος logos, which means doctrine or lesson or teaching.

So literally spoken, the stars are teaching us!

As we are going through this debate, we will find out, that there is no such thing as THE astrology. Astrology is an ancient tradition with its roots way down 5,000 years from today, which brings us to a period in time around 3rd millennium before Christ or as some people prefer to say: before the year 0 of our time.

Astrology is the result of observing the sky, of connecting the observations with events that happened to the people at that time.

Some people of today will look down on ancient astrologist as if they have been nutters.
Hey I bet everybody out there or at least most of you think that astrology is not a science, not accurate. While doing so, I think you are doing a great mistake.
Maybe it is not an accurate science as today’s chemistry or physics or quantum physics is taken as an accurate science.
But we don’t know how humans in about 3,000 or 4,000 years might judge about today’s science.

We have to examine everything by the means of the time in history it occurs in.
I don’t think it is up to us to judge Egyptian or Babylonian Priests who lived 5000 years ago.
They did a great job by watching the sky with means that are very few compared to high tech stuff like “Hubble telescope” or the possibility to fly really to the moon.

Those Priests somehow watched the sky with only a bit more than their mere eyes. And than they started to report their observations. They started to calculated, they started to predict events based on their observations. This has been possible since they added 1 + 1 = 2 – 1 observation in the sky + 1 observation in human life = makes a good prediction.

And please my dear readers and judges, don’t don’t make the mistake to think of astrology as the stuff that is offered in news papers, in TV shows, on the phone.
That stuff is to make money, to amuse and entertain people.
It can be by no means compared to the – high – astrology of ancient Priests and obververs.
Even doing a good horoscope on somebody’s life is hard work and not comparable to the little remarks in newspaper: cancer – don’t walk out of the door, harm might occure.


Astrology has a long lasting history and it consists of different and interesting methods and shapes.
It will be wonderful to take you all on a journey, a journey to read the signs more clearly.

ProtoplasmicTraveler, my dear opponent, the star is up to you.



posted on Oct, 27 2010 @ 05:45 PM
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Greetings, and a most warm welcome to my erstwhile opponent, I am very much looking forward to delving into this fascinating and very intriguing topic with you.

I would like to first begin by thanking the Forum Staff of the Debate Forum for the truly monumental effort they have put into getting this tournament up and running, and a special thanks to Vagabond for joining that team in the final days before the start of the Tournament to get the ball rolling and for moderating this debate.

From the earliest recorded history humans have had a fascination not only with the heavens, but a near insatiable yet frustrating curiosity as to the very nature of our temporal existence, here on this earth, afloat in that seemingly infinite, radiant sea of stars and celestial bodies.

Unlike the rest of the animal kingdom humans are not content to simply live out their existence in tune with nature, but to try to understand nature itself, and to master it and overcome it when and if possible.

Those nagging and sometimes maddening questions that seem to uniquely plague us as a species, of who am I, what am I, why am I here, how did I get here, for what purpose am I here, has spawned a panoply of philosophies, a countless number of religions, and a legion of self awareness cults.

Yet one of the most ancient of practices regarding humankinds often futile quest in understanding its true relation to and place in the universe is astrology whose origins date back to the third millennium B.C. though the word astrology itself comes from Roman Times and the Latin term astrologia, meaning astronomy.

In ancient times astronomy and astrology were considered two sides of the same coin when it came to the study and understanding of the heavens.

Yet today in our modern world this art form of divination is considered a pseudoscience and superstition that lacks the kind of statistical consistencies that make it a true quantitative science, instead it merely relies primarily on cognitive biases by the practitioner and participant to yield affirmative results.

One Roman Emperor who had executed a successive number of astrologers who failed to produce accurate predictions famously asked yet another Astrologer applying for the newly vacant position of Court Astrologer what he saw right then and there in the stars. The astrologer is alleged to have replied back “That my life is about to become very short if I fail to make an accurate prediction”. Needless to say the Emperor approved of that answer, and hired the man.

Yet this is the nature of Astrology, a charlatan’s art of ascertaining what the devotee wants to hear often ascertained by a strong understanding of human nature, and leading and probing questions as opposed to what the stars are ‘saying’.

Yet from the earliest recorded history this superstition has been dabbled in and even relied upon from Emperors to Kings right up on through to modern day Presidents of the United States of America, begging the question why.

The reasons vary but the foremost and primary one is self fulfilling prophecy.

In this debate I will outline how Astrology and many other disconnected New Age and Occult Practices simply lead to the power of positive visualization through the phenomenon known as self fulfilling prophecy where individuals who practice these various disciplines, arts and pseudoscience rely on an external belief system to tap into the powers of their own mind, and it’s own subconscious ability to manifest through compelling the behavior that then makes these predictions come true by starting first in the minds of those that are convinced they are true.

In so doing, I will display that not only does this have nothing to do with the position of the stars in relation to us, but that it does require that cognitive bias, and determination on the part of the practitioner in order to have any more consistent results than just the random luck of a prediction coming true.

I will show how astrologers manipulate the odds, by selecting predictions that are common themes amongst the majority of people, and as such are more likely to come true.

I will display that by focusing almost exclusively on these rudimentary plagues that afflict us all, such as money, career and romance it creates an illusion of the astrologer being prophetic when in fact they just understand the typical maladies and hopes that are intrinsic to us all.

I will display how astrology is often displayed as a form of New Age spirituality but is really a profession designed to separate fools from their money and to create a codependence and that the pinnacle of the art is garnering political influence and power, when an astrologer can ingratiate a political or corporate leader with their calculated misrepresentations and frauds.

I will display that astrology itself, based on superstition has been woven into everything from the Hindu Vedas and into the Old and New Testament and Quran and is all part of a political system, guised in the form of spirituality and religion, to keep the masses from scientifically understanding the nature of our universe and existence within it, purely for the sake of control. That this entire system is based on convincing people that there are virtues to be found and results to be had by embracing and clinging to superstitions.

I will display that what some consider entertainment and others consider blasphemy, while others still consider enlightening has contributed overwhelmingly to an endless cycle of war and deprivation manipulated by and through superstition and this has all been done to keep humans on that infant level of understanding our universe and place in it.

I will display that much or what made this practice popular was the esoteric Hermetic teachings and practices and that the 12 signs of the Zodiac and the Sun in the center represent the popular number 13, that shows up again and again in history from the 13 tribes of Israel, the Christ and his 12 disciples, to Caesar and his 12 Lictors, to the 13 steps on the Pyramid on the back of the U.S. One Dollar Bill, to the 13 bloodlines of the Illuminati to even the 13 founding colonies of the United States.

That this is all based on the ancient maxim “As is above so it is below”.

I will display that the real power of the Zodiac is not in the stars but in a secretive shadow government that has ruled over the development of the planet and the Human Race for thousands of years behind the scenes and that this ancient practice is really just a homage and tribute to their own egos and perverse and often sadistic sense of humor.

I look forward to exposing these dogmas as I expose the grand conspiracy to what really gave rise to them and raising the general level of awareness of this ancient yet highly deceptive practice and sometimes very cruel and costly fraud, all for the betterment and advancement of us all.

I intend to seize upon this opportunity to endeavor to preserve in living up to the very ATS Moto itself “To deny ignorance” by exposing every tawdry, cheap gimmick and sordid ruse that astrologers use to fleece people of their money, isolate them from others and create a lucrative and economically enriching codependency with their victims.

For this opportunity, I am humbly and eternally grateful.

In concluding my opening statement, I would like to wish the best of luck in this debate to my opponent and thank in advance those reading and following this debate, I hope you will find it as entertaining as it is informative and insightful.



posted on Oct, 28 2010 @ 04:35 PM
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What does Astrology mean?



As we learned in my last post, the term of astrology means “the study of stars”.
Some people even say, that astrology is the “art of interpret the stars”, you can even say “the art of reading the stars” the signs high above in the sky.

Remember the time when you have been a little child. Imagine the time when you have been 3 or 4 years old, to young to go to school, but I bet fascinated by the ability of your parents to read stories to you.

Children of that age want to be able to read. It is like magic to them, that people who are older than them are able to master these tiny little signs on the white paper we use to call letters.

When my son was about that age, he used to sit on his bed, with a picture book, pretending to read. Yeah it was very cute.

My son is born in December, which caused some problems for him, since in Germany kids will go to school when they are 6 years old by June 30th. That meant that little orange had to wait until he was 6 years and 8 months old to go to school. Why was that so important to him. He wanted to learn how to read! How to master those little letters, he wanted to experience the magic forming words, thoughts and storys by the means of this little black signs.
And a stupid law made him wait for another year until he was allowed to do so.

You see, by the example of my son, that humans want to learn, they want to understand, they want to master signs, which are not understandable today.

We call this curiosity, and the thirst of knowledge. This is a attribute, a feature which distinguishes us from animals. Maybe this curiosity is the true human nature!

My esteemed opponent might claim that animals are also curious. Which is not untrue, but please compare the curiosity of a little kitten or a cute monkey to the curiosity of mankind.

A kitten explores its world for sure, it is amazed by a flower or a little woolen ball. A monkey tries to open nuts with the help of stones. Very amusing for a human child to watch.

But what is the result of this?
Sure monkey learns how to open nuts, but monkey families don’t start to built nuts-pyramides with this knowledge.

Kitty learns that flowers might let it sneeze. It will go back and give the flower another try tomorrow. And that lovely woolen ball will be a toy for a life time.

Again the knowledge the kitten gained through its curiosity won’t gain in achievements for the cat-kingdom.

Humans want more! I know that this more is not always the stuff that keeps environment healthy etc. But this is not the subject of this debate.

Humans thirst for knowledge, they explore, they observe and they have the ability to combine the results, to correlate them.

Therefore humans wanted to master the big book which was provided to them high above in the dark sky of the nights.

The little glowing spots were like letters to them and they wanted to learn, in which way they formed words, thoughts, ideas, how they made sense to them.


A little History on the Art of Reading Stars



Actually we don’t know in which age astrology has its origin.
I dare to claim that astrology is as old as mankind, or maybe as the thinking human – homo sapiens – but this is only a speculation.

As it is usual in ancient history we are missing chronicles.
It would be much easier for today’s research if our ancient brothers would have been a bit more accurate with their notes.


Nevertheless there are some hints in the past.
We know from history that the earliest examples of astrology can be found in Babylon, Assyria and Egypt.
No wonder – these cultures have been called ancient sophisticated cultures when I was a young girl at school.

My opponent degraded astrology as being based on superstitions. He claimed that astrology and astronomy have been

were considered two sides of the same coin
.

This is not true!
Today we are obsessed by labeling everything. It is called to “give the child the right name”! Supposed to make life easier, because we know exactly what we are talking about.

People in ancient times have been much more relaxed.
There was no necessity in differentiate that much.

There was no difference between astrology and astronomy as we know it today. What we call today astronomy was the basis of astrology.
They watched the stars – astronomy.
They noted their observations – astronomy.
They interpreted their observations – astrology.

Neither astronomy nor astrology was able to exist without each other.

Maybe astrology got such a bad name because the masters of the stars have not been scientists as we would call them today, the masters of ancient astronomy and astrology have been priests.
Everybody knows that priests deal with faith. We observe a restriction of faith in some parts of our modern world.
Or a clear distinction between faith and science.

This was not the way ancient societies could live.

Science as we know it, has been developed by ancient priests.
Until medieval times scholarship and education was strictly in the hands of the church.
And so it was in ancient times.


Do stars predict human events?



We will deal with this subject not only in this post, but again in some other posts, so I am going to give us only a small insight in this fascinating subject.

As we have seen before ancient priests started early to watch the night sky and try to calculate events for humans.
First records of this date back to about 3.000 before Christ, so they are about 5.000 years of age.
To me it is quiet fascinating, a voice which is 5,000 years old.

People of ancient times didn’t have our knowledge – maybe in some regards they had had a deeper knowledge than we had! We only tend to look down on our ancient ancestors as if they had been stupid savages.

But try to figure if we could have achived what they achieved with their means.
They have built the mighty pyramids – without the help of modern technology.
They have created wonderful temples with beautiful engravings in stone.
They have managed to create monuments like Stonehenge.

And they did everything without the means we could use in the 21st century.

So they started to develop their own ideas.
The stars above became Gods in their imagination – not as bad as the imagination that the Christian God is living somewhere in heaven.
Or maybe there is a similarity?

And their Gods tried to talk to them and with the help of astrology they have been able to understand them.

This concept can be found in Egyptian traditions – remember that Pharaoh was the son of Ra the sun –, it can also be found in Babylonian tradition.

Fate lays in the stars.

Before I put the ball back into the hands of my opponent I would like to remind you of one major event on which our western culture is built

The Star of Bethlehem

Wise men, we can also call them astrologers, maybe they have been priests too, from Babylon watched an unsual star in the sky.

The star could have been an unusual correlation of two planets that had been observed.


In 1614, German astronomer Johannes Kepler determined that a series of three conjunctions of the planets Jupiter and Saturn occurred in the year 7 BC.

1

This conjunction is very rare.
And you have to know that the planet of Jupiter was related to the Babylonian God Marduk, Saturn was related to the Jews. The conjunction occurred in the zodiac sign of Pisces.
This could have been interpreted:
Star of King – Jupiter and the Star of Israel – Saturn means: A mighty King is born in Israel

Astrology lead the way to Jesus.

Socratic Question 1: Do you think ancient science should and could be compared to todays science?

Socratic Question 2: Do you think that it is good to compare apples with pears?

Socratic Question 3: Is it appropriate to degrade peoples faith?



posted on Oct, 29 2010 @ 01:16 AM
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reply to post by orange-light
 


It is true humans above every other known creature have an almost insatiable need for knowledge and an infinite capacity to learn.

Yet despite that what do we learn? We learn to assume some truths are self evident, and that what we observe has a greater truth than all other things.

However, what we observe is a matter of perspective. It is subject to our own unique interpretation. It is universally accepted in this present day that all humans are created equal, though their individual perspectives based on what they observe are certainly not all considered equal.

Some people’s opinions matter more than others.

This is often based on providing an additional compelling reason to consider their opinions over all others.

People who desire to lead others, to be listened to and followed more than any other, benefit from some greater weight to lend to their positions to ensure they are accepted.

Having something more powerful and awe inspiring than just other humans agreeing with them provides that assurance.

So they turned to the heavens and they claimed they saw things in the stars that spoke on these very same matters the people were arguing and divided about.

When the average person turned to the stars dotting the sky they saw a truly awe inspiring and breathtaking display and tried to divine themselves what these twinkling orbs were saying, but could not observe those same things that those who said the stars were speaking to them saw.

What they did see though was something so much bigger, and so much awe inspiring than a human being, and realized how small they were in comparison.

So quite naturally they were in awe of those who claimed they saw things in the stars that they didn’t. These diviners claimed that the stars favored them specifically by revealing these things only to them.

Ancient man had nothing but questions, humankind was still in its infancy of understanding nature, and if rains didn’t come crops would not grow and die. A flash flood from a deluge might wash them all away. A lightening strike from the sky that started a fast moving brush fire was a complete mystery as to why it occurred, as were diseases.

Wild and predatory animals still roamed the earth in abundance, and indeed these seers claimed to see these same animals in the stars too. Dangers abounded everywhere in a life that was full of uncertainties.

Those who desired prominence and to attain leadership learned that the best way to gain it was to take advantage of humankind's other basic overwhelming compulsion, the desire for safety and security and to manipulate the fears of people who were concerned they were not safe.

A few shrewd and clever people started settling these arguments over these unknown aspects of life by directing their gaze to the heavens, the very heavens where those lightening strikes came from, where the sweltering sun that sometimes withered their crops dwelled, to the heavens where the rain that brought the water to make the crops grow, and proclaimed that since everything that most greatly effected the people came from the heavens, the answers for understanding it all came from the heavens too.

The art that they learned was not divination of the stars, it was how to understand humankind’s basic fears and hopes and how to manipulate them, and control them through their fears.

They knew convincing the people that something more powerful than humans agreed with them, that their arguments and ideas would become more compelling and acceptable.

This is really how astrology was born, and the Gods along with it.

It was simply a way to stack the argument in your favor, and to both terrify people that failure to listen to you based on what the stars said would have dire and even life threatening consequences, while assuring, that if they did heed the stars, that fortune and favor would smile down on them from the heavens.

Thus they began to adopt this system in deciding matters that required universal acceptance for the sake of direction power and control.

However once a system is adopted it’s taught to the next generation as a matter of fact, who then grows up learning to accept and not question these things.

It then becomes institutionalized and when it involves something as hard to observe and understand as the concept of a star talking to you, or the influence of an unseen God, replete with warnings and admonishments that the most horrible things imaginable will happen to you if you question these things, well, then it becomes not just an institution but a way of life.

A way of life that effectively threw up a brick wall, a road block, a great divide, to keep people from looking for better answers, ones that would truly alleviate their fears and give them real security but also empower them to the point that they could reject the bad decisions and practices of their leaders that they were now bound to follow.

This was the birth of the Divine Right of Kings and Nations which still to this day is based on the concept that God favors them and protects them and gives their words, ideas, decisions and practices more credence than any other person.

This all is born of astrology, the practice of seeing things in the stars and convincing other humans that it is not they themselves that control their destinies but the heavens and the unseen things that the average person can’t observe in them, but the priestly class and the divine leaders can.

This concept is so intrinsic to religion it was written into the Vedas, and when you walk into the main entrance of the Vatican the first thing you see is a huge circle of the Zodiac.

Still to this day this fraudulent practice of what is seen in the stars is embraced because it typifies and reinforces the same mindset of those who believe in an unseen God that can not be observed as a stand alone, clearly definable entity that everyone witnessing it could agree that they see the same exact thing.

So understanding how astrology plays into the system of governance and religion is key to understanding how it is just a powerful tool to mystify, confuse and frighten people and then provide them false hope and guidance through manipulating those hopes and fears.

This is astrology.

The basis of a system to convince human kind that we are not Masters of our own destinies, but victims of fate, a fate that can only be understood through religions, priests, kings, and astrologers, because only they know how to divine what God and the Heavens have in store for us and want of us.

Unlike your child, eager to understand letters and words, letters and words have fixed, defined, universally agreed upon properties, whose definition is bound to permanent standards that require no and allow for no additional manipulation or interpretation beyond that.

Ask 10 different astrologers what they see in stars for the same person and you will get ten different answers.

The one that through sheer luck answered correctly then becomes the more expert astrologer rather than simply the lucky winner.

In answer to Socratic question #1




Do you think ancient science should and could be compared to today’s science?

No, ancient science was born out of alchemy, the quest to turn ordinary substances into Gold. Our modern concept of science was born in the Islamic world during the Middle Ages while the Roman Catholic Church expressly forbade anything that might interfere with God's will.




In answer to Socratic question #2: Do you think that it is good to compare apples with pears?

No it is not good to compare apples with pears. They are two different fruits.




In answer to Socratic question #3: Is it appropriate to degrade people’s faith?


No, not as a sport or a means to ridicule the individual of faith, someone of true faith can’t in fact have that faith degraded by an external source such as some other person’s opinions or observations about that faith. Faith does though often create a circular based logic that is nearly impossible to penetrate through any type of argument or entreaty. This is why faith based systems are so attractive to the ruling class. Because faith is predictable it becomes easy to manipulate those of faith through that faith.

Ultimately human evolution lays not through faith in the unobservable but in what can be observed, quantified, cataloged and fully understood along universally accepted but self evident conclusions based on detailed observation.

Socratic Question #1: Would you gamble the life of your child based on what an astrologer told you to do regarding them, like the Czar of Russia entrusted Rasputin to advise?

Socratic Question #2: If an Astrologer told you to leave your husband, abandon your children, friends and family and seek a path of enlightenment through solitary meditative contemplation and give up all worldly wealth to them before doing so, would you?

Socratic Question #3: Do you think there is a risk or downside to faith based systems that are dependent upon you accepting what others claim to have observed but you have never observed first hand yourself?

Socratic Question #4: Both Hitler and Reagan had astrologers, do you think it is fair to the people who they lead and rely on them for quality decisions that these decisions might be coming or influenced by an Astrologer?

Socratic Question #5: Would you agree that if you asked two different astrologers to predict your future giving both the same exact information about you, that there is any real likelihood that they would both come up with the same exact prediction?



posted on Oct, 29 2010 @ 01:14 PM
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taking my 24 hours extension



posted on Oct, 30 2010 @ 04:47 PM
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The Influence of Astrology on Humans



In my last post we have learned that in ancient times astrology and astronomy have been the same – one was used to do and report the observations and to calculate and the other one was necessary to interpreted the observations.

All this was done by the most educated persons of that time – persons who served their country as priests.

We have also learned that there are examples of events that have been predicted by astrological–astronomical observation.
One of these examples is the well-known story of the “Star of Bethlehem” which announced the birth of a new-born king, the son of God – Jesus Christ.

No matter what faith you belong to, it is undeniable that this event still influences our modern time.

It is quiet easy to take the position of my opponent, to look down on those who believe into the bible as God’s word, who live a life according to the bible.
Fact is that three wise men have been guided by a star and found the new born Jesus. According to the gospel of Matthew it was a great joy to them.

They thought this event to be so important, that they didn’t go back to King Herod to report as they promised.

Due to this event and its astrological prediction our world is built on Christian belief.

In astrology the experts use to write a horoscope – a hora skopéinlook into the hours of the moment of a person’s birth, of an event etc.
They use to interpret the way planets; sun, stars and moon correlate each other.
This is different for every incident, for every person on this earth.

With this knowledge it is possible to predict the way the life of a person might be!
You see the word: MIGHT – it is a possibility!

No astrologer will deny, no horoscope will deny the free will of humans – each and every time you are the master of your own fate.

And yet I have to state clearly:
Don’t mix up today’s tabloid horoscopes to well elaborated horoscopes of ancient times or even of a serious astrologer of these days.

It is hard work.

It is not a party game, where people run around asking each other: “what is your zodiac sign” – “Oh really, I am Gemini” – Or laughing about the old joke, if somebody claims “Virgo” because the German word for that zodiac sign “Jungfrau” is the same for somebody who never had had intercourse– it is virgin – and people are more than amused than.

Anyway we are not talking about this stuff.
An astrologer who takes his job serious needs more information than the day you were born.
Just the day is good enough for the party.
The astrologer needs the day of your birth and month, the year but as well the exact time of your birth, the place where you have been born.

Usually the place is calculated in coordinates, like London = 51° 30’ N, 0° 10’ W.
Somebody born at the same date and exactly the same hour but a different place, will get a different horoscope.

I have calculated via an online-horoscope-service a horoscope for two unnamed persons, with same date, same time, different places.
This is for sure not the exact way I know a serious astrologer would deal with the subject, it is just to give you an idea how the difference is.

I entered the following dates:

Born December, 25, 0006

1st Coordinates: 31° 43’ N 43, 35° 12’ E

2nd Coordinates: 51° 30’ N, 0° 10’ W

1st Result:

This astrological combination indicates potential conflict; your personality inclines you to be affectionate, but this bent is not supported by the individuality.

In many instances, circumstances will require that you play the role of worldliness and sophistication but under the mask there will exist a very sensitive human being who is easily offended, and also very perceptive of the more subtle influences and impressions, as well as of psychic vibrations.

Cancer gives the tendency to completely retreat when hurt or frightened of a situation. This happens to you often because you tend to interfere in the affairs of others when you are not needed or wanted.


2nd Result

This astrological combination indicates potential conflict; your personality inclines you to be affectionate, but this bent is not supported by the individuality.


yup – same here!
Why?
Both guys have Sun in Capricorn and Moon in Leo!

Guy #1 has Ascendant in Cancer, Moon in the Second House
Guy # 2 has Ascendant in Leo, Sun in the Sixth House

So more on Guy #2


People with Leo in the Ascendant seem to possess a flair for the life of nobility and regality. Your life will be in many ways influenced by decisions you make that have been motivated by your pride, desire for power, for authority, and your need to convince others of your courage.


This is not the full horoscope, just to give you a slight idea!

Sure it has to be different, because the places are different.

Below you can take a look as a so called “Astrological Chart” – I actually don’t understand much of it, but I am not an educated Astrologer.


3

But you can clearly see the dependency of zodiac sign and moon and sun etc as it is provided by the lines of that chart.
A little explanation from the Astrologer:


This yod indicates transformational processes which can be painful for many.
Jupiter has a central place in this because it is the focal point of the energy. This indicates changes in our religious systems, beliefs, philosophical systems. These fall under Jupiter.


Today’s astrologer can create such a chart in advance and for the past, because old time astrologers and modern time astronomers have done a huge deal of work.

They have made the observations and noted them, and today we only need to know the coordinates and a horoscope can be calculated and interpreted

 


Rebuttal



My opponent claims:

universally accepted in this present day that all humans are created equal


I dare to think so. He just takes the western standard for granted! If you will do a careful examination of today’s societies all over the world, you will figure out that this is not true.
Might be an interesting subject for another debate.


Ancient man had nothing but questions, humankind was still in its infancy of understanding nature,


Oh really? Still in its infancy of understanding nature?
WOW!

I hope you know the difference between the dark age between 900 and 1500 and the sophisticated cultures like ancient Egypt.
If their understanding of nature or technique would have been so infant, so basic, I actually start to wonder how they for example have been able to built the mighty pyramides.
Just take a look at the richness of the hieroglyphs. Think about the possibility to do successful operations at the brain – yeah that was possible in old Egypt before Christ.
First operations at the brain in modern time happened in 1895.

Oh what an infancy!

And don’t forget that the ancient Egyptians have been able create mummies which are still existing. But I forgot, the understanding of nature was still in its infancy!

His response to my Socratic question:

ancient science was born out of alchemy


Bad alchemy, they have just provided results like porcelain or gun powder – ok I can do without gun powder, but a cup of tea tastes nicer in a proper porcelain cup.

You might be surprised that alchemy discovered a kind of phosphorescence pigment “Lapis Solaris”, which lead not only to a discussion about the nature of light (modern physics) but also in 1652 to spectroscopic examinations.

As anything alchemy has its good sides and its bad sides, but I think it is kind of arrogant to look down on an ancient tradition which was also part of our modern times and can be acknowledge to be part of our today’s science like medicine or forensic chemistry (Mitscherlich Test).

SQ1: Do you think it is a risk in science for you, to relay on measurements of others – biologists, physicist – rather than doing the whole stuff by yourself?

SQ2: Do you think it is a good idea to relay on politicians without knowing the whole sources of their ideas?

 


Replies to Socratic Questions of my opponent.

SQ#1
I don’t need to gamble the life of my child, because a serious astrologer will never tell me how to act, he will just give an overview of possibilities. This overview allows my child to act the way he wants.
Astrologers use to say, that stars just influence but they never force to act! There is always the free will included!

SQ#2
No I wouldn’t, but a serious astrologer would never tell anybody so!
Just leaders of cults use to do so, but astrology is not a cult.

SQ#3
Depeneds on the faith. In case of astrology, there is no risk in it. It is the observation of others, but it is up to you what to do with it.

SQ#4
As if politicians ever make really quality decisions!
As stated before, an astrologer can only advice, the decision is always on the human himself, and you just don’t know which sources politicians use, even if they don’t use astrology.
It could be worse my friend.

SQ#5
If the astrologer would be a serious one who does his job as it is supposed to be, I won’t get different opinion, because there are not opinions, they are exactly calculated based on my date, time and place of birth, which is the stable number in the game.

Now I am looking forward to you next post Proto.



posted on Oct, 31 2010 @ 12:52 PM
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Declaring my 24 hour extension.



posted on Nov, 1 2010 @ 04:16 PM
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reply to post by orange-light
 


My opponent is trying to explain how astrology functions from a lay person’s perspective, the techniques and factors that make up the logistics of the art.

I would prefer to discuss what the debate is really about.

Is astrology an art of predicting our predestined futures based on the position of the stars, and the planets, in relation to our exact geographical position on the earth, at the time, date and place of birth, really an accurate science?

Romanticizing the ancient past and the people who lived during those times in flattering ways, has absolutely nothing to do with whether the stars and planets influence and dictate events during our lives with scientifically observed consistency.

What processes astrologers use in arriving at their divinations, is simply the process that they use to reach consistent conclusions enabling each astrologer to arrive at similar conclusions based on being able to formulate a response from fixed observable elements in a standardized way.

Validation of the process can only be obtained when the predictions made by the astrologer come true.

Yet even then that outcome might not be determined or influenced in any significant way by the actual stars.

I will display that it is highly unlikely that when astrological predictions come true it is not based on anything directly to do with the stars other than the astrologer who makes the predictions claims that they are.

So far my opponent has failed to do two vital things in making that case that astrology is more than a parlor trick and confidence game.

One: She has failed to provide reliable statistics from any documented and published studies that show a percentage based outcome of how many predictions come true that display any consistent averages.

Without numerical statistics, compiled in credible ways we can make no scientific conclusion regarding astrology.

Secondly, my opponent has failed to identify what are the powers and the properties that the celestial bodies have that can influence our bodies, minds and reality.

We have not read what mechanism the celestial bodies emit those unidentified powers through. We have not read what parts of our physical bodies ingest and receive these powers or how our bodies process them and distribute them inside of us. No explanation of the properties or mechanisms that predetermine our actions to the point that the outcomes of our actions and lives are predictable with statistical certainty.

Endorphins for instance are a chemical made by our bodies to combat pain and fatigue which comes from a clearly identifiable part of the central nervous system.

We know what factors trigger endorphin production within the body; pain and strenuous physical exertion trigger the mechanism. We know how endorphins then create a sense of euphoria in the brain sometimes known as a ‘jogger’s high’ that then causes our conscious mind to in essence ignore pain and fatigue.

With science we have learned that opiates, natural and artificially made, have the same effect in creating a general sense of euphoria in the brain and the central nervous system.

There is a process of creating uniform measured doses of opiates and how to introduce them into the body in ways that create predictable results with an attached numerically consistent rate of success.

Every step in this process has been identified, every physical element detailed down to the molecular level.

My opponent has produced no such evidence regarding the mechanisms that would make astrology just as quantifiable and statistically certain.

I myself receive a daily horoscope via email by subscription from a popular internet astrology service.

In addition I have had three different astrologers provide complete charts drawn up based on the exact time, date and place of my birth, so every element of the celestial heavens as they are thought to influence us though astrological principle and practices could be factored in.

I have discovered statistically 1 out of 5 daily predictions ends up accurately reflecting the entire outcome of my day 1 out of 5 partially reflects events of my day while 3 out of 5 do not reflect any portion of my day or anything that happened in it, or any element of it.

My full detailed charts have come with daily predictions of how events will unfold and what type of events I am likely to encounter as well as an overall mission and purpose for my life.

My mission and purpose in life divined by three different astrologers each making their own detailed full chart based on the exact location of my birth and precise time, to base their conclusions and predictions on yielded the same results.

My purpose and mission in life is to preach a healing message to the world, and save the world.

I actually do try to preach healing messages and am actively trying to save the world.

Astrologers and their charts and predictions based on the stars, have in part given me both a belief that I should be doing this, and some additional hope that my efforts aren’t going to entirely fruitless and can even succeed.

Astrology has helped me justify spending time, money and energy, and placing a priority on pursuing preaching a healing message and trying to save the world.

I am consciously trying to create a self fulfilling prophecy.

A prophecy given to every other person born at that same minute and hour of the day in the year and place I was, that is based on uniform methods to arrive at predictions.

So not only would I have to succeed in saving the world to make this a statistically accurate science, the other people born at the precise same time and place on earth would have to also.

Astrologers are simply selling us a hope and a dream and an ideal and ideas through their craft, unless you really want to believe I am predestined to heal the woes of humanity and save the planet.

Their conclusions appealed to my ego, and my sense of adventure and desire for a grand and purposeful destiny in life and to truly help others in a lasting and truly helpful and significant way.

So in reality I truly desire that I could have my horoscope come true.

I know I don’t have the logistical wherewithal to achieve my life mission divined through astrology.

So I am actually pursuing a dream and goal in life as my primary focus that is just bound to cause me disappointed through the almost total certainty I will fail at it.

In my previous Socratic Questions to my opponent that they failed to answer directly but simply suggested that no credible astrologer would make such predictions or say such things, we might assume that her response to my dilemma of having to heal and save the world, were simply the musings of bad astrologers.

Yet because there is science through standardized techniques in their readings and predictions, what we see is uniform analysis, what we don’t though see is uniform successes from those.

In answering my opponent’s Socratic Questions, I would like to state that I feel that she meant to spell rely instead of relay. So I am first going to answer directly using the word relay, and then answer them a second time substituting the word rely.

In answer to Socratic Question #1: Do you think it is a risk in science for you, to relay on measurements of others – biologists, physicist – rather than doing the whole stuff by yourself?

(Literal direct answer) No in fact I see no risk in relaying all pertinent information, data and relevant material to biologists and physicists so that they could use that information to reach the most thorough conclusions.

(Figurative answer) Yes I think there is always a risk in just considering and relying one source, hence the old sayings “don’t put your eggs in just one basket.”

In answer to Socratic Question #2: Do you think it is a good idea to relay on politicians without knowing the whole sources of their ideas?

(Literal direct answer) I think it is could to relay information to politicians which is why I often write my Senators and Congress People, the President and other high ranking officers of the Government to share information with them and ask them questions regarding how they are reaching their decisions.

(Figurative direct answer) I do not think it is a good idea to rely on politicians without knowing the sources of their ideas. My own belief is that the source of their ideas is the most influential people that help them get elected. I would actually only rely on the politician if I personally knew those influential people that got them elected and could rely on them as well.

Questions for my opponent as follow:

Socratic Question #1: Do you think it possible that astrologers that told me my purpose and mission in life is to save the world could potentially lead to harm to other people.

Socratic Question #2: Do you think it possible astrologers telling me my purpose and mission in life is to save the world could potentially lead to harm to me.

Socratic Question #3: Do you think it possible astrologers telling me my purpose and mission in life is to save the world has already harmed me in any real quantifiable way, and if so do you think that harm is reversible or healable?

Socratic Question #4: Do you think it possible astrologers telling me my purpose and mission in life is to save the world has led to me doing anything positive for others or has led to positive things for me?

Socratic Question #5: Consider my above described life mission and purpose as divined by astrology, please
rate the chances of this prediction coming true based solely on your own belief in astrology’s validity using the numbers 0 to 10 through to assign the probability with 0 meaning no chance at all, and 10 meaning you absolutely believe it will come true.



posted on Nov, 2 2010 @ 03:46 PM
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Today I will begin by responding to the Socratic Question of my dear opponent Protoplasmic Traveler.


Socratic Question #1: Do you think it possible that astrologers that told me my purpose and mission in life is to save the world could potentially lead to harm to other people.


I don’t think that this is possible.
Always keep in mind that it is up to people in which way they want to follow an astrological chart.


Socratic Question #2: Do you think it possible astrologers telling me my purpose and mission in life is to save the world could potentially lead to harm to me.


No it isn’t possible.
As stated above it is up to you in which way you want to follow your astrological chart.
An astrologer didn’t create it to put harm on you. He created it because this is what the stars say about your life. But it is up to you, if you want to follow this or do something completely different.
If you do the later one, it might happen that you won’t gain your full potential and your full happiness, but it is up to you and no harm intended!


Socratic Question #3: Do you think it possible astrologers telling me my purpose and mission in life is to save the world has already harmed me in any real quantifiable way, and if so do you think that harm is reversible or healable?


As stated above: NO!
But I get the feeling that you feel harmed. Maybe you should look for professional help.


Socratic Question #4: Do you think it possible astrologers telling me my purpose and mission in life is to save the world has led to me doing anything positive for others or has led to positive things for me?


Actually I don’t know what you have done so far to gain your purpose in life.
You just claimed that you did everything, but I can’t judge this.
All I have is your word in an internet forum. I don’t know you personally and I don’t know personally what you already did.
As we say: paper can be very patient.
But go ahead and tell us everything about your struggles.


Socratic Question #5: Consider my above described life mission and purpose as divined by astrology, please rate the chances of this prediction coming true based solely on your own belief in astrology’s validity using the numbers 0 to 10 through to assign the probability with 0 meaning no chance at all, and 10 meaning you absolutely believe it will come true.


I can’t and I won’t rate this in the way you expect it from me.
As I said in a previous post: it is always up to the person himself to work with the prediction.
Mankind has free will. If you want to make this prediction come true and work hard, than it will be very likely that it will come true. So that will be a 10 in that case.
If you just sit in a corner, doing nothing, it will be unlikely that anything comes true or will work in your life, so that will be a 0.
But it is up to you!!!

 


An Astrological chart as stated by you, can only be guidance!

And that is all astrology wants to be – guidance in life.

It shows you the possibilities that are there for you. An astrological chart can claim that you have the abilities to be a political leader. If you chose to become a catholic monk – it is up to you. Nobody will force you to become a political leader if you don’t want.

There is no law on earth which makes you to follow astrological predictions.

Rebuttal



Maybe this is not a traditional rebuttal, but I would like to address one or two of your points.
First of all, I want to say, I am very sorry for you dear Proto!
I mean this from the bottom of my heart.

Your post made me nearly cry. Cry of sorrow and pity.

What a burden must this debate be for you. A guy with three astrological charts, with an email subscription of a daily astrological prediction, with the afford to make his astrological prediction on life come true, with the suffering of possible fail for this prediction – this guy has to debate that the stars are lying.

I just can’t tell you how much I am suffering with you.

With this knowledge I understand your struggle for knowing what this debate is really about.

Let me quote the topic again, as The Vagabond set it in his OP:

Astrological observations correlate to human events



And certainly we have revealed – together with your last post – that the observations correlate to human events.

Have you forgotten all about the Star of Bethlehem in your sorrow?
An observation made by astrologers lead the wise men to the stable where Jesus Christ was born.

Certainly it is necessary to focus on the ancient science of astrology. We have learned that in ancient times observation and interpretation was ONE.
Modern time astrology is based on the ancient astrology established by the Babylonians and Egyptians.

Socratic Question #1:
Why is it important to focus on the original than on modern times development?

According to Egyptian Astrology the personality of a person was shaped by the God and the planets connected with the hour of birth and the place of birth. We follow the same tradition in modern astrology.

With the given horoscopes of two fictive men being born at the same day, at the same time in two different places of the world – see my post #3 – I have showed exactly this!

My opponent seems to believe that ancient societies have been a bit backward compared to our modern civilization.

Egyptian astrologers have been able to predict exactly and precisely the annual floating of the Nile, a very essential incidence for Egyptian society.

You seem to refuse predictions in general and astrology in specific, by shouting for statistics.
This believing in statistics is a very modern disease. People are obsessed by statistics.
And nothing is easier to falsify as a statistic.

Socratic Question #2:
Do you think you can trust a statistic you haven’t falsified by yourself?

Interestingly ancient philosophers like Plato or Aristotle, or poets like Homer or Sophocles – men who’s thoughts and idea helped to built our modern society – truly believe in predictions and astrology.

Astrology was even regarded as the better way to make a prediction, a much more reliable way than slaughtering a bull and read his bowel.

Last but not least a deep warm thank you to my opponent for correcting my spelling. I am sorry for this mistake. I just have to apologize because, as stated before, English is not my mother tongue.

In answering my Socratic Question if it is a risk on relying on scientific measurements of others, my opponent replied:

I think there is always a risk in just considering and relying one source
.

According to this, it might be a good idea to go out and do some of the demanded statistics on astrology by yourself, dear Proto. Nothing better than having the job done by a person, who is on the other side.


As well it is interesting that astrology was usually used in high classed societies.
The Kings and Pharaohs got astrological charts, not the baker shop girl next door.

And it is also very interesting to me, that usually stuff that really works without that just a few are making big money out of it, don’t have much to do with statistical proves.
What do I mean with making big money, for example: if you observe the pharmaceutical market, there are only a few companies who usually make money with a certain medical drug. Sure they prove the effectivity of the drug through many statistical examinations. They have to, they need an OK from the FDA of the very country! Without FDA approval: no selling – no money.

This is how it works for most of the stuff. Certainly the government claims that it is necessary 1st the statistic and 2nd the approval to protect the people.
Is this really the reason? Or is the reason quiet more simple: to control who is making the money out of it?

You won’t find those statistics for herbal tea for example. There is not much money to make out of herbal tea. But it works! I am my own statistic in that case. Drinking a mixture of fennel, aniseed and caraway helps an upset tummy. No need for statistics, just rely on ancient wisdom.
Quiet simple.
When you look around you will find tons of examples.

Astrology is another ancient wisdom.
They are dooming it probably because they haven’t found a way how to make money out of it


Since astrology is an art of interpreting the observation of the stars it is very easy to discredit or neglect a prediction. It is easy to claim that it is wrong. To doubt.

A famous astrologer Nostradamus made some interesting predictions in the 16th century. He predicted the French revolution, Napoleon Bonaparte, World War I, World War II and even the terror attacks of 9/11.

My opponent mocked about President Reagan counseling an astrologer, not knowing that Cardinal Richelieu, a famous French politician of the 17th century did not despised counseling an astrologer. Astrologers have always been counseled by those who hold the power.

Even Napoleon and Wallenstein believed in astrology as well as the one of the founding fathers of the United States of America Benjamin Franklin.



posted on Nov, 3 2010 @ 02:44 PM
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reply to post by orange-light
 


My opponent's consistent message seems to be that freewill can not be overridden as evidenced in her statements.


Always keep in mind that it is up to people in which way they want to follow an astrological chart.


My opponent has used variations of this theme again and again to avoid directly answering my Socratic Questions.

Yet when asked to rate just how valid my opponent considers astrology to be they in fact want to offer no opinion at all.


I can’t and I won’t rate this in the way you expect it from me.


She struggles in vain to try to define astrology to mean something entirely different than how the astrologists portray it.

This is evidenced by statements like this one.


Mankind has free will. If you want to make this prediction come true and work hard, than it will be very likely that it will come true.


She is conceding that astrological predictions when realized are simply self fulfilling prophecies.

Astrologers are simply appealing to our egos and emotions to con us out of money and gain influence with us, and to even create a codependency on them.

My opponent has displayed how easy it is for astrologers to manipulate us along emotional lines.


Your post made me nearly cry. Cry of sorrow and pity.


Even while my opponent avoids direct questions as to whether this kind of emotional manipulation by astrologers to ply their trade for profit could have a detrimental impact on those they target she in fact admits that yes it very well could by stating this:


Maybe you should look for professional help.


My opponent seems to believe that at best Astrology is a dime story novelty for entertainment and doesn’t appear aware that charts drawn up by astrologers typically outline a 10 to 20 year period from the date they are created, and that astrologers recommend consulting them on a daily basis.

My opponent seems to be in fact characterizing those who dabble in it earnestly in this fashion.


What a burden must this debate be for you. A guy with three astrological charts, with an email subscription of a daily astrological prediction, with the afford to make his astrological prediction on life come true, with the suffering of possible fail for this prediction – this guy has to debate that the stars are lying.


She herself makes it sound as if it’s a bizarre obsession when people get the tools that astrologers are selling and tell them they must have to understand how the stars relate to our fates.


This believing in statistics is a very modern disease. People are obsessed by statistics.
And nothing is easier to falsify as a statistic.


The above is my opponent’s explanation for not having any numerical statistics or studies that would make a strong case for astrology being an actual reliable science.

She admonishes us for wanting statistics and to discover this all ourselves but then frets with concern when in fact one does.

Yet she still tries to contend the art of astrology is legitimate based simply off the pure emotional appeal of romanticized stories that at the least render it a curious novelty, and at worst a sinister way for people to suffer emotionally, financially or otherwise in some other way when they believe what their astrologer(s) say.

My opponent’s purely romantic and emotional laced odes to astrology are evidenced in such statements as this.


Have you forgotten all about the Star of Bethlehem in your sorrow?
An observation made by astrologers lead the wise men to the stable where Jesus Christ was born.


She ignores that the Magi themselves were astrologers, while totally neglecting the fact that about one half of all human beings including the Jews that first began worshipping the God, that is alleged to have sired Jesus Christ consider this story to be purely myth meant to establish the divinity of a character for religious purposes.

So my opponent readily admits that astrology is woven into religion and is used as a way to support and make religion which is another faith based system seem more credible through attempting to establish it with astrology.

Astrology in as she portrays it is simply credible because it supports her favorite other myths!


A famous astrologer Nostradamus made some interesting predictions in the 16th century. He predicted the French revolution, Napoleon Bonaparte, World War I, World War II and even the terror attacks of 9/11.


In reality no he did not. Authors looking to profit off of Nostradamus have simply so fantastically reinterpreted what he did write in the quatrains to fit nearly any event that has happened since, with out Nostradamus once, correctly naming a date, name, place or precise action specifically.

Close only counts in hand grenades and horseshoes.

In fact these statements not only prove astrology is not reliable, but the people constantly pushing it are simply looking to make money as they manipulate vague words and thoughts to sell us on the idea that an astrologer did predict something!

My opponent goes on to say that Benjamin Franklin a well known Master Mason, a secret society practicing esoteric arts such as astrology believed in it himself.

Yet Benjamin Franklin also espoused “Early to bed, early to rise makes a man happy, healthy and wise” however as Ambassador to Paris, Benjamin Franklin was a notorious hedonist and lady’s man who routinely staid up all night until the dawn in the restaurants and night clubs famously in the pursuit of bedding both mothers and their daughters!

So did Benjamin Franklin see astrology as a way to manipulate other people into taking bad advice to believe in superstition, simply to manipulate others to do what he would like them to do, while rejecting that advice himself?

My opponent has continually failed to make her prima fascia case of do the stars actually influence human events.

Fate negates freewill, and astrologers tell us everything is fated in the stars. So if the craft were valid statistically, then freewill could not overcome fate.

My opponent has admitted they believe nothing trumps freewill, that one must always use caution when deciding to listen to an astrologer, because there is the potential for them to give you bad advice and you or others could be harmed by that.

I do know if I have a headache that there is a 99% chance that Tylenol formulated by a precise science and always delivered in a uniform way is going to make that headache go away.

It is clear my opponent has no such faith in astrology and in fact advises us not to either. That it’s main appeal in her estimation is to romanticize the past and reinforce faith based religions.

In response to my opponents Socratic Question #1:


Why is it important to focus on the original than on modern times development?


It is not vital at all to focus on the original development as we have nothing but fairy tales and myths, mostly linked to substantiating various religions that have all more or less be discredited and abandoned. The people of Babylon now Iraq does not worship those gods anymore and it is almost universally believed those Gods never existed, the same holds true of the Egyptian people and their former Gods which comprise the bulk of her ancient examples.

Where Christianity is concerned the places where those wise men of the East came from, those astrologers of the east who believed the stars foretold and heralded Christ’s birth don’t believe Christ is the son of God today but practice a religion that does not believe in the divinity of Christ. The Jews consider Christ a blasphemer and infidel and the Muslims consider him a holy prophet second in importance to Mohamed. Meanwhile Hindus, Taoists, Buddhists, Atheists and Communists don’t believe in his divinity at all.

My opponent would like us to rely on ancient superstition largely rejected to validate what in its over all totality by her own admission can’t be validated at all except through one’s own personal insistence that it is real and valid, all the while stating again and again she herself does not trust it enough to make one important life decision based on it that went against her own freewill and better judgment, and that she believes no one else should either as it can lead to tragedy and sorrow.

This is hardly a sound endorsement. If my opponent were selling cars I would be headed for another showroom long about now.

In answer to my opponents Socratic Question #2:


Do you think you can trust a statistic you haven’t falsified by yourself?



My opponent is asking if we can trust any statistics other than the ones we made up ourselves falsely out of thin air for some reason.

I do believe we can trust statistics, when we know that credible, uniform and certifiable methods are being used in compiling those statistics. If a box of muffins proclaims that the count is 8 inside the sealed box, I generally do not rip the box open in the store to count them myself!

Where astrology is concerned no such certainty exists, which is why I have been investigating it and other esoteric practices for years to better understand the way that what is simply superstition is manipulated for personal power and profit.

Since my opponent to date has failed to directly answer any of my Socratic questions and she certainly appears to need all of her closing statement to try to come up with some consistent sensible position and message to make her side of this argument, I will ask none, and simply wait to see, if she can ever present a case for the Stars actually having an effect on human events.



posted on Nov, 4 2010 @ 05:52 AM
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Closing and Rebuttal



So finally we are coming to an end.

Before we close the show, we need to define some more terms.
Terms my opponent seems to be obsessed of:

Self-fulfilling Prophecy


A self-fulfilling prophecy is a prediction that directly or indirectly causes itself to become true, by the very terms of the prophecy itself, due to positive feedback between belief and behavior.

1

It is a prediction of a not named source.

This source could be hand-reading, bowel-reading, tea-leave-reading.

This source could be positive or negative encouragement by your parents, teachers or peer-groups.

Every dedicated parent knows how important it is, to tell the children how much we love them.
Yeah maybe this is a self-fulfilling prophecy too, tell them that you love them, and than they will feel loved.
Psychologists can tell you that it works better in the negative way, although I would love to claim that this better working is a bit cynically.
Tell a child constantly that he is an idiot, and he will become an idiot, because he believes he is one.

Yeah and one source of a self-fulfilling prophecy is an astrological chart.
Or could be an astrological chart.

Even if my opponent loves to deny it: Mankind has a free will.
And every serious astrologer will tell you this.
Astrology never ever preached that the interpretations are carved in stone!

Two common sayings among astrologers are:
“Stars show what is possible, but they won’t constrain.”

To me this is a clear statement towards free will.

The second statement:
“stars rule fate, but the wise man rules the stars”

Quiet clear too.

There are influences from the stars.

My opponent quoted his astrological chart which claims that

My purpose and mission in life is to preach a healing message to the world, and save the world.


He is made for preaching a healing message to the world, but if I got it right on my mind, my opponent failed thus far to reach this purpose in life.

Anyway there is nothing wrong about a self-fulfilling prophecy.

Would my opponent feel better, if a teacher would have told him that he should become a preacher?
I dare say so.

I don’t own such an astrological chart as my opponent owns them in a bulk.
All I can provide is an online chart.

This proves that astrological charts are not all about “self fulfilling prophecies” as my opponent claims.

When I was in high school in my senior year, I wanted to become a journalist.
I went to college and university, taking classes in language and communication science and worked part time for a newspaper.

Later on I moved to another city and another university for some advanced studies.
No more working for the newspaper, since it was to far away and it was in pre-internet times.

I had to look for another job.
It worked like this: a friend told me that a friend ………
…… finally I ended up in media and graphic design.
A path I am still following.

Now to my surprise:

Your mind is very artistic and refined and it craves all forms of intellectual development and growth, in addition to possessing a keen appreciation of everything pertaining to culture.

2 – emphasis mine


You will better develop your potentialities in any professional circle where your natural inclinations can be reasonably manifested.

2 – emphasis mine

Being a graphic designer seems to be my purpose, and I have to admit that I never had the thought of doing something different. This profession is just made for me or I am made for this profession.

So the stars came true. And now I am very interesting in get a really professional chart.

Since I didn’t know it in advance I didn’t had to struggle like my opponent to allow the prediction to come true.

And I can assure you, that nothing was on my path of that kind when I started school.
I was the one who was successful in Math and Science



Statistics

Another obsession of my opponent.
Worthwhile to have a closer look at the definition.


Statistics is the science of the collection, organization, and interpretation of data

3


Hmmmm – this is thrilling


According to the above stated astrology itself is the statistic my opponent so desperately wants


Observing the sky = collecting the data
Getting information about the person like date, time and place of birth = collecting the data
Creating a birth chart = organizing the data
Interpretation of birth chart = interpretation of data


My opponent regards statistics as many other science related stuff as kind of universal and absolute or being set in stone.

This is somehow not really true.
It usually depends on the question being validated


It deals with all aspects of this, including the planning of data collection in terms of the design of surveys and experiments. Statistics is closely related to probability theory, with which it is often grouped.

3

In this case the collected data is a result of the surveys and experiments the scientists is going to do.
And yeah by choosing the question you can easily manipulate the resulting statistic.

Experiments have to be observed and it often happens that observations are not correct.
It happens in modern science!

I am not going so far to claim that it never happens in astrology.

We are all humans – and sometimes humans make mistakes.

Statistics can be misinterpreted and falsified

There is a general perception that statistical knowledge is all-too-frequently intentionally misused by finding ways to interpret only the data that are favorable to the presenter. The famous saying, "There are three kinds of lies: lies, damned lies, and statistics".

3 – emphasis mine

And finally I have to admit that my opponent is misguided:

I do believe we can trust statistics, when we know that credible, uniform and certifiable methods are being used in compiling those statistics. If a box of muffins proclaims that the count is 8 inside the sealed box, I generally do not rip the box open in the store to count them myself!

emphasis mine

Protoplasmic Traveler, buying a box of muffins has nothing to do with statistics.
Certainly you can trust a package of muffins that comes in pieces, but I would strongly advice you to weight groceries that are sold by weight or volume. Companies love to cheat to make more money.

That’s not statistics, that’s human greed.

 


Astrology



An ancient art with a millennia tradition.

We have seen that a careful observation can predict human events, like the predictions of Nostradamus or the Star of Bethlehem.

Even my opponent has astrological charts from different astrologers who discovered similarities in my opponent’s fate.

But we also had to learn that foes of this art try to discredit supporters in a quiet filthy way.

This is not acceptable.

I would really like to know why the way of living of Benjamin Franklin is important for his creditability about astrology.

It has been his business with whom he shared bed and so it is the business of my opponent – I don’t care about this.

As well as I don’t care about that stuff when it comes to muffins or science.
All I ask for to wash hands before packing the muffins.

To me it was very interesting to find out what the stars had to say about me – although it was only an online chart.
I would highly encourage our readers to get a chart by themselves – not to maximize the profit of some astrologers, just for the sake of getting to know you better, just for the sake of deeper insights.

If the astrologer is a serious one, he or she will encourage you to rely on yourself, there is always a free will, but you will never know how it comes out.

The final moment to judge about the own chart has yet to come far in future.

All I am asking of you is not not to count on the horoscopes of the tabloids. Better not rely on anything that’s written in the tabloids.


Trust in yourself and trust in the stars as guidance.

Thank you for coming with me so far.

It was a pleasure to do this debate and in some way I am a bit sad that it is over now.

 


love
orange-light



posted on Nov, 4 2010 @ 10:23 PM
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reply to post by orange-light
 


Before my summation I would like to thank my gracious opponent for a most spirited debate. Also to thank the esteemed and honored judges in advance for their consideration in the dispatch of their duties, and last but not least Vagabond for moderating these debates.

Astrology is a subject I am familiar with; I have made a study of the esoteric, spiritual and metaphysical in my own quest to better understand the nature of our universe.

I am not alone in this quest as people have had this curiosity since the dawn of time, spawning religions and philosophies, secret societies and astrology.

These are all designed to try to define the mechanics and logistics to answer those questions both wise men and fools struggle to find answers for.

The more I study and learn the more I understand about these things, the less I know!

I am not alone in struggling in vein to better know these things, my opponent seems to have her own doubts in making a case for the stars effecting human behavior.

Her many conflicting statements and lack of statistics and reliable studies displays this.

She concedes that that astrology leads to nothing but humans endeavoring to make prophecies self fulfilling.



Yeah and one source of a self-fulfilling prophecy is an astrological chart.
Or could be an astrological chart.


Yet it’s not the stars that make an astrological chart it is human beings.

My opponent tells us ‘legitimate’ astrologers say the following:



“stars rule fate, but the wise man rules the stars”


An admission that astrologers consider fate to be predestined, thus negating her own emphasis on freewill, but that a wise man rules the stars through telling others what they see in them, thus attempting to profit off of and control others through convincing them what their fate is.

She tells us this is what legitimate astrologers do, yet has failed to define any standard for what a legitimate astrologer is or not. The American Medical Association has strict guidelines for its member Doctor’s and indeed the Hippocratic Oath they all swear binds them to certain ethical and moral standards.

If such a system exists for astrologers, my opponent has truly failed to display it.

How could one rule the stars other than through astrology, and using astrology as a tool for their own enrichment power and control? After all we have no spaceships, or other earthly powers to dictate to the stars. The only way one could rule the stars is by using the stars as a tool to manipulate us, to manipulate us through astrology.

I have been studying the consistency of astrology for decades and in so doing have discovered it is a very much a hit or miss type of uncertain craft, my opponent bases her opinions on a much more limited form of discovery as evidenced by this statement.



All I can provide is an online chart.


She seems totally unaware that a computer software program has predicted her future using the standardized methods that all astrologers use.

That provided generalities regarding her personality but it hasn’t and she hasn’t done two critical things.

It hasn’t been interpreted by an actual astrologer trying to divine day to day occurrences in her life, as many do for a hefty fee, rendering a book of predictions, day by day as your life unfolds.

She has only a few generalities about her personality.

She has chosen to focus in on her professional life what she is supposed to be adept at, claiming that her chart divined this correctly.

Profession is just one part of our life, did her chart produced by a computer program online, guess accurately her love life, her family life, her general disposition, and attitudes towards things, or did it just guess this one aspect?

She has not told us, we can only assume she would have though had the other aspects of her life been correct?

She has assumed that legends of Jesus really support the accuracy of astrology, though there is no evidence beyond fables that people take on faith.

Yet modern astronomers as opposed to astrologers, have plotted the sky backward looking for the mythical star of Bethlehem, concluded it would have appeared in the months of late March or Early April in the skies of those parts of the world during the year Jesus is alleged to have been born.

We celebrate Christmas, Christ’s Mass heralding his birth on the 25th of December every year. Why? Because the Catholic Church could not get people to stop celebrating the Pagan Holiday of Yule, that started at the Winter Solstice on the 22nd of December and ended on the 1st of January. This holiday dates back to Babylon and Rome and was celebrated by the Celts, the Norseman and the British Islanders too. So a frustrated Catholic Church declared Jesus was born in the middle of it to Christianize the holiday, and the holiday itself has some elements of bribery as it became a traditional time of gift giving especially for children. This allowed for them to be happily indoctrinated into the worshipping of Christ at a tender and impressionable age.

Since Rome and the Papacy lied to us all about when Christ was really born, just to stamp out other religions popular festivities, can we really say they didn’t lie to us too, about the Three Magi who were astrologers who saw his coming in the stars that they claimed heralded it?

We don’t have surviving accounts from those Magi, just from the Romans who provided us these stories after writing the Holy Roman Bible.

A religion that celebrates Easter, once known as Ishtar, a Babylonian fertility holiday, and incorporates dozens of elements from Gnosticism to Egyptian Religions and evidently astrology too.

This is really a legitimate method to prove astrology?

She tells us about Nostradamus who’s legendary quatrains in fact have been so widely interpreted that every time a major world event happens, some author reinterprets them again to say that things like “A dark one shall emerge from Africa” means he knew President Obama was one day going to rule the United States.

Let us not dwell on the fact that Obama has not been proven to have been born in Africa, or Nostradamus failed to mention him by name, or to predict the exact date, or place from Africa or what he would emerge to do.

Let’s just sensationalize it to sell some books and make a documentary!

These are the lynchpins of my opponent’s arguments, and contentions.

Those myths establish fact, that statistics are not needed to establish facts that they are unreliable, that statistics could be easily manipulated, but myths are definitely not!

When it comes to what she wants to offer in statistics she tells us.



Observing the sky = collecting the data
Getting information about the person like date, time and place of birth = collecting the data
Creating a birth chart = organizing the data
Interpretation of birth chart = interpretation of data


That the process itself is scientific and indeed it is, computer programs now tell most people what the stars are saying after having all the standardized formulas for divining the stars programmed into them.

Yet as far as how accurate those predictions, she seems to be telling us, why should we care, they used a standardized process, it shouldn’t then matter how accurate its end product then is.

Gas pumps here in Florida use a standardized process in delivering gas; State Inspectors measure that delivery from time to time to make sure in fact they are yielding advertised and correct results.

Officials monitor and record and publish how accurately they deliver what they claim to be, they ensure the reliability and confidence of the system.

No uniform method can measure astrology’s accuracy, which is why it is considered a pseudo science and an art, and not a real science.

It merely is a novelty, something to enchant us with hopes and dreams of some bigger, greater, grander thing than just ourselves sees over us, guides us, and determines what the life we all struggle to figure out and understand is really all about.

Because none of us appear to know with absolute provable certainty what life is about, not in any provable way that has led to universal acceptance amongst all humans.

That uncertainty has always led to opportunity for sages and prophets, priests and kings, charlatans and despots, to claim that they know what we don’t know, to control us and profit off of us through that.

They have developed uniform systems and messages to do that, and that is all astrology is.

In conclusion I have displayed the desires and questions that make people seek out astrologers, the fact that there are no statistics that have ever satisfied modern science that it is a reliable method to arrive at correct conclusions, that there are no explanations of what properties if any emitted by the stars actually do affect us, that there is no explanation of how those then interact with our bodies and determine our development, that there is no consistency in what are random results, that there are no governing professional bodies that regulate the trade to ensure integrity and results, that at best when predictions come true, it’s through people working diligently to make them come true, and at worst its just another way to encourage people to use faith instead of logic, in order to manipulate them for economic advantage and control.

My opponent has produced nothing to dispel any of the above.

Based on my own explorations and studies, the views of the scientific community and indeed even my opponent’s failure to produce a compelling case to the contrary, I contend there is no evidence what so ever that proves the stars influence human behavior.



posted on Nov, 11 2010 @ 10:56 PM
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Protoplasmic Traveler has won the debate and will advance to round 2.

Judges quotes:


Winner is Protoplasmic Traveler. Orange-light had few references and, as Proto comments in one of his rebuttals, her material seems to be based on her own understanding and not on what other sources say. Her approach is personal but not global in scope and the use of her own natal chart as proof is extremely weak... as he points out.



I have to give this one to Protoplasmic Traveler. I wasn't happy with the way P.T. took the common bias in favor of his position for granted and argued without sources, because he did say a few things that I felt needed support. That could have been big trouble for him if Orange-Light had been better with rebuttals. The stronger rebuttals and sounder reasoning were provided by P.T. however, and that proved decisive. Orange-Light also made a somewhat tough call a bit easier by conceding too much on free will, which fed right into P.T.'s argument on self-fulfilling prophecy.





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