WikiLeaks - Iraqi War Logs - Bunch of Hype

information is power.

the US Government now knows the people have proof of its lies.

reply to post by laiguana


As a veteran who got out in '09, I can tell you that most of the military members are quality people who only want to serve their country, and have been placed in a situation to which they have no alternative. They have to go and do their jobs, or the rest of their life is ruined. Most of us joined because we loved our country and wanted to help in what was deemed a time for patriotism. Once I got in, it sparked my interest in politics and the actual goings on--leading me to vehemently disagree with our presence in in these places and the motives for being there.

I never deployed, just to get that out of the way, so I can't give accurate accounts of war time. I was in from 05-09, and I got to dress up like a "terrorist", grow a beard, and train the troops for their deployments. Essentially, I got to play the most expensive and realistic game of laser tag for four years. While I used to be upset about not being deployed, my new views on the situations have caused me to be grateful that I didn't have to deal with the ethical and moral dilemmas, as well as the psychological, that people have to deal with coming home from war. I just wanted to give a background to support my views, and ultimately, post this terrific video:

reply to post by Aim64C


It's baffling that some people like you rather burry the truth than know about it. Like an ostrich sticking its head in the sand.

WE are paying for this war, we DESERVE to know what's going on. Over 50k civilians died with US tax payer money...and you don't care.

I want politicians to be accountable, and if a soldier blasts an Iraqi family unjustly which leads to his dishonorable discharge...then well, he deserves the backlash. He's still better off than the civilians he killed! If someone #s up, I wanna know about it, and the rest of the world deserves to know as well.

You are essentially advocating witholding information purely because it makes bad people look bad. What a joke!!

Luckily we have the Internet, so now that pandora's box is opened, this won't be the last time we get to hear the truth!

As for MSM ranting about the war...you might wanna go back in time and check out how FOX supported the war for years! And yes, they're MSM.

The irony is strong in this one. You're posting on a conspiracy forum where information is key, and people constantly ask for "disclosure" and information...yet your reaction is to say we don't want information?? That's illogical, and stupid. And your argument that people doing service somehow should get a carte blanche and be allowed to do whatever without being held accountable is crazy. You might think you're a patriot, but if that's what you're defending, then you're a blind patriot who puts patriotism above human rights and justice. That's not what the founding fathers had in mind!

reply to post by gncnew


Hype???? When atrocities and murders had been committed by and against our courgeous boys in uniforms is 'hype'???!!!

Since when had you been so cold blooded and uncaring in the tace of evidence and deadly crimes against humanity????

Had the loss of precious lives of humans on both sides holds no meaning to you anymore????!!!!

Originally posted by SeekerofTruth101
reply to post by gncnew

 

Hype???? When atrocities and murders had been committed by and against our courgeous boys in uniforms is 'hype'???!!!

Since when had you been so cold blooded and uncaring in the tace of evidence and deadly crimes against humanity????

Had the loss of precious lives of humans on both sides holds no meaning to you anymore????!!!!

It's hype because this isn't the "news" that it happened. This is a circus trying to capitalize off of sensationalism. You want justice and truth, take a trip to Darfur. You want accountability roll on over to South America and look at drug cartels run amok.

This is politicized garbage that is informing the public of nothing. it only servers to fuel the vitriol between political ideologies and to make Wikileaks people a lot of money.

reply to post by gncnew


Still calling the unreported death of over 50k civilians "hype". What would you have preferred? WL not coming out with the info? No one reporting about it?

If the answer is NO, then I have to ask how you would have given out the info. Have you even bothered reading the documents?

WL did an amazing job at decrypting those documents. I don't think you realize how much work goes into that. What they've done is proper fact-based reporting, something a lot of MSM forgot how to do.

And WL isn't the one hyping anything. They just provided the information, which is all based on FACTS.

It still baffles me how you can be against more information getting to us. VERY illogical for a member posting on a site called "deny ignorance".

Originally posted by MrXYZ
reply to post by gncnew

 

Still calling the unreported death of over 50k civilians "hype". What would you have preferred? WL not coming out with the info? No one reporting about it?

If the answer is NO, then I have to ask how you would have given out the info. Have you even bothered reading the documents?

WL did an amazing job at decrypting those documents. I don't think you realize how much work goes into that. What they've done is proper fact-based reporting, something a lot of MSM forgot how to do.

And WL isn't the one hyping anything. They just provided the information, which is all based on FACTS.

It still baffles me how you can be against more information getting to us. VERY illogical for a member posting on a site called "deny ignorance".

You still don't get the whole point of the post. What info has been released that has changed anything? What have we "learned"?

It's hype because this is just details of what either you know happens in war - or you believed to be true. But the premise that his will open anyone's eyes is just tom-foolery.

When Wikileaks provides advance notice that they're about the "release" more documents... what's the advance notice for? ... Hype

Why not just take the documents and actually press criminal charges? ... Hype

Why play this super secret coy game that Julian is "on the run"?... Hype

This whole thing is hype. Not the details being released - the circus around them. I would argue that with some good old fashion research you could find out all the details that are in these documents just without the actual operation names, locations, and personnel involved.... but all those details provide is ... wait for it... hype.

I think the information of that many civilian deaths will change the perception of a few people...which makes this totally worth it. Before they came out with it, you could have said there's "20k civilian deaths" and people would have called you crazy...or argued the number is too low. I like having facts, and I don't really care about who hands out the facts.

Obviously, the way they handed out the news was made in a way to bring it to peoples' attention. It's the only way you get coverage by the MSM nowadays without going under in Jersey Shores and other crap. Either way, I won't ever complain about getting too much info and facts.

And I certainly don't think you can under-hype the death of over 50k INNOCENT CIVILIANS! Obviously I'm hoping something changes because of the information we have now, but it's not up to me...or Wikileaks for that matter. They came, gave us the knowledge that over 50k innocent civilians died...and whatever happens now isn't really their job. Yes, there should be some follow up investigation (which the government obv tried to prevent by hiding that figure), but that's up to courts and lawyers.

More info = good
Less info = bad

So I can't see how anyone seriously condemn WL for providing us with more information. What would have been your option? Keep quiet about it because you don't deem the info of 50k innocent deaths important enough?

reply to post by MrXYZ


I guess we'll have to just agree to disagree then. I think that this was all in an effort to make money and gain notoriety. I think this is the equivelent of when Hollywood idots get out there and feed some poor African kids.

Was the act good? YES!

Was the motivation or the method good? NO!

You want information about this - but this only CONFIRMS what you already believe. NO ONE is chaning their minds about the war because of this.

If you support the wars (which most don't anymore) - you know that this happens as it is an inherent part of war. If you don't support the wars, you've always said that you worried about this stuff....

If someone's dead, and you know who did it, and you even know why they did it... does knowing how really change anything?

That's what this is - just extra info for the sake of .. well... extra info.

reply to post by MrXYZ

It's baffling that some people like you rather burry the truth than know about it. Like an ostrich sticking its head in the sand.

The phrase: "you can't handle the truth" comes to mind. AQI uses children with genetic disorders as suicide bombers, some idiot on our side used civilians as mine-sweepers. You want to know the truth, you can't focus on one side of it. We're fighting against some sick people - not just on their side, but amongst our own ranks, too.

While the specifics of these reports are new to me, the overall concept is nothing I didn't know about already. I'm in the military - I talk to people who were there. You may know a few people in the military - talking to them will get you similar stories to the ones I get.

WE are paying for this war, we DESERVE to know what's going on. Over 50k civilians died with US tax payer money...and you don't care.

Want to make it 70K? It's war, genius - people die. We couldn't even begin to tally the civilian casualties in World War II, Vietnam, Korea, etc. If you paid attention to the reports, you'd know that all kinds of reviews of policy were done in an attempt to lower the incidents of civilian casualties at checkpoints.

And, really, paying taxes doesn't grant you security clearance. Sorry - FOI request forms are what your tax payer dollars get you without appropriate background investigations to grant you security clearance.

I want politicians to be accountable, and if a soldier blasts an Iraqi family unjustly which leads to his dishonorable discharge...then well, he deserves the backlash. He's still better off than the civilians he killed! If someone #s up, I wanna know about it, and the rest of the world deserves to know as well.

No, you don't need to know. You do not deserve to know. You do not have a right to know, and you sure as hell do not have a right to judge the soldier's actions or character. You cannot even begin to parallel your experience to his/hers. You make a bad judgment call and end up getting fined for running a red light. That soldier makes a bad judgment call on a van speeding towards a checkpoint and they either gun down civilians or they let AQI blow up their whole unit. You're damned if you do, and damned if you don't - and have blood on your hands in either case.

Respectfully - shut up.

You are essentially advocating witholding information purely because it makes bad people look bad. What a joke!!

I'm sure you would appreciate the details of your employment made public record. When you screw up and cost your business $20K in down-time, it should be tattooed on your forehead and everyone should permanently judge you for your one-time error. You should not be able to show your face in public without being humiliated and cursed.

Or - wait - most of us have jobs, too, we know people make mistakes - it's part of life. So your fellow working peers (presuming you work) would understand that mistakes happen and simply go on with life.

Luckily we have the Internet, so now that pandora's box is opened, this won't be the last time we get to hear the truth!

If you knew a thing about Greek Mythology, you would realize the irony in your reveling in the opening of Pandora's box.

Humans are so predictable. If you want to kill one - just put a bomb in a box and close the lid. You can write all kinds of warnings to stay out, and even tell them exactly what will happen if they open it. Some dumbass is going to yank that lid off and kill the whole room.

As for MSM ranting about the war...you might wanna go back in time and check out how FOX supported the war for years! And yes, they're MSM.

Fox never really supported the war. Many of their commentators did, but that is like saying CNN supported the war for hosting Hannity and Colmes.

The irony is strong in this one. You're posting on a conspiracy forum where information is key, and people constantly ask for "disclosure" and information...yet your reaction is to say we don't want information??

People don't want information. You want psychological validation. You want to be proven correct. We could release every document in the DoD we could find - give tours of the Groom Lake facility, and people would still be saying: "Well... where are the REAL documents?" They don't want the truth. They want to be correct.

When the war grew unfavorable, people wanted to be validated in their anger towards the war, and would believe any set of instances that seemed to indicate the war was 'manufactured.' Just look at all of the claims and "proof" it was over oil, despite Iraq hardly even registering as a source of oil for U.S. or U.S. oil enterprises. They will take any relationship between a politician and a business person and blow it out of proportion despite the raw empirical evidence standing against their assertion.

And not even I am immune to it. Yes, that was an assertion of superiority. You'll live through it.

And your argument that people doing service somehow should get a carte blanche and be allowed to do whatever without being held accountable is crazy.

You are putting words in my mouth. I never said that these people should not be accountable. I simply said that they are not accountable to the civilian population. They are accountable to their chain of command and the articles of the UCMJ. The military, as a whole, is accountable to the U.S. National government. Civilian and local entities have no authority over military personnel in the theater of war (if we went nuts in a bar, that's a different issue).

If you had read a number of my posts - I have said that the military is very quick to prosecute their screw-ups. We separate people on a routine basis for 'minor' infractions (drinking under-age, for example) - we don't like working with #bags any more than you do. If you have discharges in the "other than honorable" or the "dishonorable" category - you were kicked out (spare for medical discharges - which is a subset of OTH) and it shows. The 'nice' term is "administratively separated."

We had a guy when I was down in Florida fake his disappearance (and presumed death) into the Gulf after setting one of his buddies as the beneficiary for the 400K SGLI (who also went UA not long after, and was the last one to 'see the other guy alive'). One of the instructors picked him up hitch-hiking and brought him back. The Navy billed him for the costs of operating all of the search and rescue vehicles looking for him in the Gulf. That came with a dishonorable discharge, I believe - you really have to screw up for one of those, but he deserved one.

You might think you're a patriot, but if that's what you're defending, then you're a blind patriot who puts patriotism above human rights and justice. That's not what the founding fathers had in mind!

Civilians cannot deliver justice to soldiers who have seen combat. You can deliver justice to our military bureaucracy - but not to the soldiers. To believe otherwise is pure ignorance and a failure to understand the fundamental difference between a soldier and a civilian.

Would you say you have the authority to sit on a jury and deliver a verdict on a medical case? Do you have the experience and knowledge to -really- judge a doctor's actions leading up to an accident? What about a police officer? An accountant? An architect or construction worker?

The military has its own court and tribunal system for a reason - and it is used quite extensively.

Look, in the end it comes down to this:

Do you want more or less information? My answer will be "more" every single time...doesn't matter if the info is "ugly", "inconvenient", or anything else. If the information represents facts, I want them. I care about facts.

And who's to decide what's important and what not? You? Me?

Information is power, and that's why I believe people should have access to it. All people, not just the military or whoever tries to keep inconvenient facts "private".

Especially the people on this site should be the ones who don't complain about too much info. We have demands for disclosure on here every day, with people asking for information. So why on earth would anyone start ranting about getting information?

What gives you the right to decide what information should be handed out and what not? Or what information is important or not?

Originally posted by MrXYZ
I want politicians to be accountable, and if a soldier blasts an Iraqi family unjustly which leads to his dishonorable discharge...then well, he deserves the backlash. He's still better off than the civilians he killed! If someone #s up, I wanna know about it, and the rest of the world deserves to know as well.

What about insurgents that murder civilians? How come they aren't held accountable? On ATS, any civilian deaths in Iraq are always blamed on the US or US Forces in the region.

Originally posted by MrXYZ
Luckily we have the Internet, so now that pandora's box is opened, this won't be the last time we get to hear the truth!

Right. Because everything on the internet is the truth.

reply to post by MrXYZ

Do you want more or less information? My answer will be "more" every single time...doesn't matter if the info is "ugly", "inconvenient", or anything else. If the information represents facts, I want them. I care about facts.

Then you should start submitting FOI request forms.

Most of these documents would have been made available through FOI requests (with names, operating names, etc removed).

And who's to decide what's important and what not? You? Me?

Congress. Direct your complaints about policy to the ones who make that policy.

Information is power, and that's why I believe people should have access to it. All people, not just the military or whoever tries to keep inconvenient facts "private".

It's not about what is inconvenient to the military. The military doesn't make a habit of releasing its documents and records to the public. That is why the FOI act was passed, to allow people who requested information to receive that information with OPSEC taken into consideration.

Especially the people on this site should be the ones who don't complain about too much info. We have demands for disclosure on here every day, with people asking for information. So why on earth would anyone start ranting about getting information?

Because I am on ATS - I automatically must be for disclosure? Disclosure of what? Sonobuoy drop patterns? Dimensions of a Seawolf-class's screw? The training procedures for our ninja-assassins? Some base on mars or the moon?

Half the people asking for "disclosure" only believe something exists for whatever reason and want to see paperwork proving it. They want psychological validation. If "disclosure" happens, and it doesn't mention aliens, ninjas, pirates, and the battles between the three - it's incomplete, disinformation, etc.

I am an aviation buff. I want to know about every aircraft designed, built, and flown under DoD contracts. I want to see them, to be able to walk up and touch them - to learn about everything on them - even fly them. But I know and respect the reasons for those projects being classified and with-held. I would love to pour over information on secret aircraft and the missions we never hear about - but I don't want to see such blatant disregard for security protocols such as releasing it to wikileaks.

I can fill out an FOI - if it is information that is no longer sensitive - then it can/will be released. Otherwise - there is so much data being generated within the DoD that they do not have time to try and sift through it all and determine what is and isn't sensitive anymore - unless they get a specific request for that information. Which is the purpose of the FOI process.

What gives you the right to decide what information should be handed out and what not? Or what information is important or not?

I do not have that right or authority. Congress, the President (to some extent) and respective military commands have that right and authority.

I am merely informing you of what those respective authorities have decided is and is not your right.

Consider the rights of soldiers - just like there are rights of patients. Personnel records are confidential - my military service is confidential and the details of it are, effectively, classified. Everyone in the military is the same. If I wish to disclose my service, that is fine and dandy - I have that authority to tell you about Page 13 entries (miscellaneous comments - usually a "page 13" has a negative connotation as they often describe incidents of insubordination and other negative behavior), service dates, awards/merits, etc. If I don't want you to know, the military is not permitted to release those records to anyone without proper authority.

That means all military reports approved for release to the public will omit names of service members involved in operations. Legally - they are not permitted to.

reply to post by Aim64C


Seriously - don't bother.. Something I've learned on here is that way too many people on ATS are just like me and simply won't be persuaded to a belief or opinion that differs from their first stance.

ATS is full of self-righteous, self-anointed "experts" that simply "know" their opinion to the "correct" one... and I am chief among them.

Debate on here is like the guy from "Rain Man" debating who's on first.... pointless.