The Sphinx Origins and a Final Link to Pre-Dynastic Egypt, page 3

To all those that have said the Sphinx was built in the time of Khufu or after, i suppose you have chosen to overlook the '' Inventory Stella'' -

The 'Inventory stella' - Found at Ghiza by Auguste Mariette in the 1850's, in the ruins of the Temple of Isis clearly states that Khufu restored the Sphinx. This stone provides some of the strongest evidence that the Sphinx was constructed before Khufu and not by him. It says:

===============================================================================

Long live The King of Upper and Lower Egypt, Khufu, given life

He found the house of Isis, Mistress of the Pyramid, by the side of the hollow of Hwran (The Sphinx)

and he built his pyramid beside the temple of this goddess and he built a pyramid for the King's daughter Henutsen beside this temple.

The place of Hwran Horemakhet is on the South side of the House of Isis, Mistress of the pyramid

He restored the statue, all covered in painting, of the guardian of the atmosphere, who guides the winds with his gaze.

He replaced the back part of the Nemes head-dress, which was missing with gilded stone

The figure of this god, cut in stone, is solid and will last to eternity, keeping its face looking always to the East.

================================================================================

Above courtesy of:

www.ancient-wisdom.co.uk...

I want to emphasise this part of the translation:

He restored the statue, all covered in painting, of the guardian of the atmosphere, who guides the winds with his gaze.

To me it stands out....


Another Quote courtesy of the above website:

Zahi Hawass on the restoration of the Sphinx:

'On the upper part of the body we found old kingdom blocks, of the same quality used to face the causeway of Khafre, reset against a badly weathered old kingdom core'.

The fact that the same Old kingdom blocks (contemporary with Khafre), were not found over the lower courses too, which were protected by sand over most of their life, confirms that the top part of the structure only was restored in the 4th dynasty. Also, and very importantly - the fact that old kingdom blocks had already been re-set against a 'badly weathered' core clearly suggests that the structure was already extant in the 4th dynasty.

I will contiinue to add to this thread as i believe it is important and an important part of our history.


I also wanted add a couple extra pictures to the thread. No particular meaning but still amazing pictures of the Sphinx and it being dwarfed by the Pyramids.

Also in regard to the images taken in the 19th Century - to people that say Mars may not have evidence of previous civilisation, well if the Sphinx can be almost completey buried time and time again over 10,000 years or depending on your beleifs 5000 years then well, if Mars had a civilisation say 1 million yearsago then of course it's gonna be hard to find


The Sphinx in bad shape ( 1867 )



The Sphinx ( 1900 )






I would love to go to Egypt if only for a day to see the Great Pyramid and The Sphinx.

reply to post by LeoVirgo

---

I am not sure, were you using your location or the GPS co-ordinates for Giza for that date.

I put in the location and date for Giza and got the above results as per the screenshots. Leo definatly rose in front of the Sphinx, passed over through the night and set behind the Sphinx before dawn.

Linking this to the symbolic meaning of Aker, he watched over the passage to the underworld. - A more detailed explaination is found in my OP in regard to Aker.

reply to post by Byrd

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It was rising at dusk and crossed the night sky and set in the west.

As the sun was rising in the East Leo was setting behind the Sphinx in the West, as it set the new day dawned.

By the time Leo rose in the East it was almost 9PM and Leo was fully visible.

reply to post by Archangelelijah

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It was there long before the 1st dynasty. There was once an even greater civilisation on this planet. Around the end of the last ice age, this also includes what we now describe as Atlantis.

As per my previous post, Aker was one of the Ealiest ever Gods worshiped in Egypt, where do you suppose that symbolism came from.

Originally posted by Havick007
reply to post by LeoVirgo

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I am not sure, were you using your location or the GPS co-ordinates for Giza for that date.

I put in the location and date for Giza and got the above results as per the screenshots. Leo definatly rose in front of the Sphinx, passed over through the night and set behind the Sphinx before dawn.

Linking this to the symbolic meaning of Aker, he watched over the passage to the underworld. - A more detailed explaination is found in my OP in regard to Aker.

edit on 31-10-2010 by Havick007 because: (no reason given)

I use Stellarium. I would love for you to download it and check it out, its free.

It doesnt matter where in the world you are....the Sun is going to rise in the same constellation all over the world.

Even by taking the degree amount of each constellation....and figuring the math out of the movement of the Sun seeming to move backwards over time through the constellations (1 degree every 72 years)....the October 29 10,000 BC date doesnt add up.

Ive been trying to figure out why that program you are using (being they are both supposed to be astronomically based) is showing what it is showing.

Look at it this way.

The Sun, now, shows itself to be in Leo through August. We know this. We know that the Sun will do this, showing in August, in Leo, for anywhere from 1500-3500 years (it depends on the size of the constellation, exmaple since Pisces is HUGE, the Sun time (for an age) in Pisces is longer then many constellations....well over 2000 years. So lets just take a general 2000 years for the Sun to be in Leo, in August.

As we have the Sun in Leo for the past general 2000 years in August....the 2000 years before that, it would generally be in July, that Leo would of been with the rising Sun. So now we are generally at 10AD. The 2000 years before that, the Sun would of generally been seen in Leo in June. So now we are generally at -2010BC. The 2000 years before that the Sun would of generally been seen in Leo in May. So now we are generally at -4010 BC. And keep going with that generalization....
-6010BC Sun in Leo in April.
-8010BC Sun in Leo in March.
-8010BC Sun in Leo in February.
-1010BC Sun in Leo in January.

Now reminder, this is generalizing and does not work well to figure out the exact month and year for the Sun in Leo but if you notice....October is still a LONG ways from these dates. The other issue that makes this generalization incorrect is that there are many constellations that the Sun has spend an 'age' in that the 'age' ended up being ALOT longer then 2000 years. My guess is 3000 years would be a better generalization actually but people like to think that an 'age' last a little over 2000 years for all 'ages'. Like right now....the Sun has been in the age of Pisces for over 2000 years and it actually is closer to 3000 years for the age of Pisces.

But still, the generalization does show with the most 'shortest' time span for an age....the Sun in October with Leo....was beyond 10,000BC. If we take the true degrees of all the constellations from Pisces to Leo....and figure those on a time scale with the movement of the Sun (its really the wobble of the Earth) that makes the Sun seem to move backward through the constellations over time 1 degree every 72 years....we would see the Sun in 10,000BC would be in Leo from early April to early mid May.

reply to post by LeoVirgo

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yeah i also have Stellarium, although i stopped using it because everytime i input that same date it started counting down years super fast. Kinda annoying...

I found Cybersky much easier to use and very user friendly. You should try it and do the same as i did and you will see what i mean. the screenshots speak for themselves dont they? I wasnt generalising, its an exact match.


anyways i just tried Stellarium again, it's exactly the same, i managed to stop it at 31/10/9974BC and the Leo still rises after sunset directly in the East, the direction the Sphinx was facing.

I think you need to change your Earth location, different parts if the planet give different results at the same time of day.... you must realise that.

I changed my location to Australia at the same date and time and got totally different constellations.

Originally posted by Havick007
reply to post by LeoVirgo

---

yeah i also have Stellarium, although i stopped using it because everytime i input that same date it started counting down years super fast. Kinda annoying...

I found Cybersky much easier to use and very user friendly. You should try it and do the same as i did and you will see what i mean. the screenshots speak for themselves dont they? I wasnt generalising, its an exact match.


anyways i just tried Stellarium again, it's exactly the same, i managed to stop it at 31/10/9974BC and the Leo still rises after sunset directly in the East, the direction the Sphinx was facing.

I think you need to change your Earth location, different parts if the planet give different results at the same time of day.... you must realise that.

I changed my location to Australia at the same date and time and got totally different constellations.

edit on 31-10-2010 by Havick007 because: (no reason given)

edit on 31-10-2010 by Havick007 because: (no reason given)

edit on 31-10-2010 by Havick007 because: (no reason given)

Yes...but the Sun will rise in the same place all over the world. If the Sun rises in Leo in Egypt on one day....on that same day, anywhere else in the world....the Sun is going to rise there in Leo too.

On stellarium.....on the left side of the screen...there is a 'clock' where you can 'type in the date' you want without having to use the fast forward thingy.


I see where you are confused though...or that I misread your point I mean. Your saying that at SUNSET...Leo rises in the East. But I am pretty sure in one of your that you stated that the Sun rose and set....in Leo on that date. Because your point was that as it 'rose in the east in Leo' it ALSO 'set in the west' in Leo.

The idea that the Sun rose and set in Leo on that date.....is VERY different then the idea that 'when the sun WAS setting in the west, that LEO could be seen in the East.

Going back now to re read what you wrote to see where I got the idea that you were saying the Sun rose in Leo and Set in Leo on that date.

If you WERE talking about at NIGHT TIME...that LEO rose in the east and set in the west...then this was all my misunderstanding.

Originally posted by Havick007
reply to post by Byrd

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It was rising at dusk and crossed the night sky and set in the west.

As the sun was rising in the East Leo was setting behind the Sphinx in the West, as it set the new day dawned.

By the time Leo rose in the East it was almost 9PM and Leo was fully visible.

edit on 31-10-2010 by Havick007 because: (no reason given)

Nice job, finding the Inventory Stele translation! Most will cite the Dream Stele, which rests between the Sphynx's paws... but neither one actually mentions a second figure. "Deity of the atmosphere" is an interesting phrase, because there's a known deity of the atmosphere but that god's name is "Shu" and he is depicted as fully human: en.wikipedia.org... The Dream Stele, of course, talks about the sphynx as representing "Horemakhet-Khepri-Atum." and there's no constellation or star group associated with those.

In order to prove a "Leo" connection, evidence would have to show up that they recognized what the Romans (2,000 years later) called "Leo" as a constellation and that they connected it to a sphynx shape and tracked its progress in the sky.

Really great thread.
The Pyramids are something that we must keep on researching because there`s so much being held back from us.
For what reason, i don`t know.
One of the best documentary`s i`ve watched recently is " Pyramids, a different theory, parts 1 to 5 "
www.youtube.com...
There`s another 5 parter called " Pyramids tombs or generators? ".

reply to post by Harte

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Harte: The Inventory Stela dates to the 26th dynasty and as such can tell us nothing at all about the age of the sphinx carving. The 26th dynasty is 2100 years after the 4th dynasty.

SC: It is certainly true that the Inventory Stele was - just like the Dream Stele - manufactured thousands of years after the events it describes. However, to hold up a span of time as some kind of barometer as to the authenticity of the actual text the stele presents is just plain nonsense. That is like claiming a Bible printed last week is nonsense simply because it was printed thousands of years after the events it describes. I often find it a source of great amusement that mainstream Egyptology is happy to hold up the Dream Stele as evidence of Khafre's hand in the construction of the Sphinx when it is a known fact that this stele ALSO was manufactured thousands of years after the events it describes. Cherry-picking at its finest.

The actual FACTS of the Inventory Stele are that it describes Khufu as having made reparations to the head of the Sphinx. In the 1930s when Egyptologist, Professor Selim Hassan, was clearing away the sands that had long since engulfed the Sphinx, he discovered that such ancient repairs had indeed been made to the head of the Sphinx. Hassan also noted that ancient sycamore trees had once grown near to the Sphinx and we are told from the Inventory Stele that a sycamore tree near to the Sphinx had been struck with a bolt of lightning. So it seems that – far from being a “pious fraud” as archaeologist, Paul Jordan calls it – the Inventory Stele clearly speaks of events of proven historical fact and this must surely confer credibility upon the text of the Inventory Stele as a whole.

Regards,

Scott Creighton

reply to post by Harte

---

yeah that quote was speculation on my part, although no need to get personal. But i stand by the rest of this thread.
Scott has a good point, although i am no the most religious person, people read the bible and take it for granted thaat many parts are true and did actualyy happen. But yet because the Stela is Egyptian are you saying it is wrong or that they couldnt keep records at that point in time. The library of Alexandria was an amazing place with thousands of years of history, supposedly. Although it has all been lost due to the stupidity of later generations and people.

reply to post by LeoVirgo

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I didnt say directly that he was the keeper of the sun, the symbol of Aker and the red circle or disc within actually means the horizon. I did mention the Sun but only refering to setting or rising on the horizon. In my OP i had East and West mixed up ( sorry again ) so i look at it like this:

The sun was setting behind the Sphinx as Leo was rising in front of the Sphinx and vica versa as the Sun was Rising.

It isnt as much relating to the Sun as it is to Leo, the sun could rise in the North and South and it wouldnt really matter. What is important is the time of day / night Leo was ''alligned'' with Sphinx.

Again the one of the meanings or symbolism of Aker:

'' Aker was an ancient earth-god in Egypt. He was believed to guard the gates of the dawn from which the sun rose each morning. He was portrayed as a double-headed lion, or a two lions sitting back-to-back.''

-

So then two lions sitting back to back guarding the gates of sunrise, and where was Leo at sunrise or just before, setting at the back of the Sphinx ( back to back ) makes sense to me.

Also the quotes about Aker where taken from other sources linked in the OP by people that have had time to study Aker in more detail.

reply to post by Byrd

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I agree in regard to the Roman link to Leo. Lets have a look at Ptolemy for a moment.

Graeco-Roman

In the Western world, the sky of the northern hemisphere is traditionally divided into constellations based on those described by the Ancient Greeks. The first ancient Greek works which dealt with the constellations were books of star myths. The oldest of these was a poem composed by Hesiod in or around the eighth century BC, of which only fragments survive. The most complete existing works dealing with the mythical origins of the constellations are by the Hellenistic writer termed pseudo-Eratosthenes and an early Roman writer styled pseudo-Hyginus.

In the 2nd century AD, the Greek astronomer Ptolemy described the constellations in great detail in his influential work the Almagest.

Courtesy:

Constellations


And then he have this:

Almagest - is the Latin form of the Arabic name (الكتاب المجسطي, al-kitabu-l-mijisti, in English The Great Compilation) of a mathematical and astronomical treatise proposing the complex motions of the stars and planetary paths, originally written in Greek as Μαθηματικἠ Σύνταξις (Mathematikē Sýntaxis, Mathematical Treatise; later titled Hē Megálē Sýntaxis, The Great Treatise) by Ptolemy of Alexandria, Egypt, written in the 2nd century.
Its geocentric model was accepted as correct for more than a thousand years in Islamic and European societies through the Middle Ages and early Renaissance. The Almagest is the most important source of information on ancient Greek astronomy. The Almagest has also been valuable to students of mathematics because it documents the ancient Greek mathematician Hipparchus's work, which has been lost. Hipparchus wrote about trigonometry, but because his works have been lost mathematicians use Ptolemy's book as their source for Hipparchus' works and ancient Greek trigonometry in general.

Courtesy: en.wikipedia.org...

Perhaps in his time in Egypt he learnt more about the planets, stars and constellations than we realise. Thanks for the tip though, i am going to read more into this.

It is interesting that Ptolemy was Roman citizen of Egypt as well:

Here is a quote about his treatise - Tetrabiblos or known in Greek as The Apotelesmatika:


Ptolemy's treatise on astrology, known in Greek as both the Apotelesmatika ("Astrological Outcomes" or "Effects") and "Tetrabiblios" ("Four Books"), and in Latin as the Quadripartitum ("Four books"), was the most popular astrological work of antiquity and also had great influence in the Islamic world and the medieval Latin West. It was first translated from Arabic into Latin by Plato of Tivoli (Tiburtinus), while he was in Spain (FA Robbins, 1940; Thorndike 1923). The Tetrabiblos is an extensive and continually reprinted treatise on the ancient principles of horoscopic astrology in four books (Greek tetra means "four", biblos is "book"). That it did not quite attain the unrivaled status of the Almagest was perhaps because it did not cover some popular areas of the subject, particularly electional astrology (interpreting astrological charts for a particular moment to determine the outcome of a course of action to be initiated at that time), and medical astrology, which were later adoptions.

Link: en.wikipedia.org...

I want to emphasize again, he was a Citizen of Egypt. Ironically the Library of Alexandria was burned around this time, well some time after but in terms of history it all happened around the same time.
Also perhaps ironically the Ptolemies of Egypt were the first non Pharoa rulers of independent Egypt before the Roman conquest.

Here's some more information of the Library of Alexandria:

en.wikipedia.org...



Perhaps after taking over they took ancient knowledge that had been in Egypt for many centuries or milennia before thier arrival.

Just a quick add to the above post:

a snippet from the Tetrabiblos ( Chapter IX - The power / Influence of the fixed stars )

Leo. Of the stars in Leo, two in the head are like Saturn and partly like Mars. The three in the neck are like Saturn, and in some degree like Mercury. The bright one in the heart, called Regulus, 4 agrees with Mars and Jupiter. Those in the loins, and the bright one in the tail, are like Saturn and Venus: those in the thighs resemble Venus, and, in some degree, Mercury.

Here's the full text: www.sacred-texts.com...

It makes for some interesting reading in general. Although this is not proof as such, it does provide a string link to Egypt as Ptolemy spent much of his life in Egypt.

I have also just found this written within the texts:

Reference: XXIII - The Disposition of the Terms

===================================================

However, the terms most generally accepted on the authority of
ancient tradition are given in the following fashion :

Terms according to the Egyptians.

Aries : Jupiter = 6; Venus = 6; Merkur = 8; Mars = 5; Saturn = 5;

Taurus : Venus = 8; Merkur = 6; Jupiter = 8; Saturn = 5; Mars = 3;

Gemini : Merkur = 6; Jupiter = 6; Venus =5; Mars = 7; Saturn = 6;

Cancer : Mars = 7; Venus = 6; Merkur = 6; Jupiter = 7; Saturn = 4;

Leo : Jupiter = 6; Venus = 5; Saturn = 7; Merkur = 6; Mars = 6;

Tetrabiblos
Virgo : Merkur = 7; Venus = 10; Jupiter = 4; Mars = 7; Saturn = 2;

Libra : Saturn = 6; Merkur =8; Jupiter = 7; Venus = 7; Mars = 2;

Scorpio : Mars = 7; Venus = 4; Merkur = 8; Jupiter = 5; Saturn = 6;

Sagittarius : Jupiter = 12; Venus = 5; Merkur = 4; Saturn = 5; Mars =
4;

Capricornus : Merkur = 7; Jupiter = 7; Venus = 8; Saturn = 4; Mars =
4;

Aquarius : Merkur = 7; Venus = 6; Jupiter = 7; Mars = 5; Saturn = 5;

Pisces : Venus = 12; Jupiter = 4; Merkur = 3; Mars = 9; Saturn = 2;

========================================================

And lastly which i found very interesting in regard to an ancient Egpytian manuscrpit he found, also i know it's long but in the context of this thread it's worth reading and worth quoting the whole thing.

''Now of these terms those which are constituted by the Egyptian
method are, as we said, more worthy of credence, both because in
the form in which they have been collected hy the Egyptian writers
they have for their utility been deemed worthy of record, and
because for the most part the degrees of these terms are consistent
with the nativities which have been recorded by them as examples.
As these very writers, however, nowhere explain their arrangement
or their number, their failure to agree in an account of the system
might well become an object of suspicion and a subject for criticism.
Recently. however, we have come upon an ancient manuscript,
much damaged, which contains a natural and consistent explanation
Tetrabiblos
of their order and number, and at the same time the degrees
reported in the aforesaid nativities and the numbers given in the
summations were found to agree with the tabulation of the ancients.
The hook was very lengthy in expression and excessive in
demonstration, and its damaged state made it hard to read, so that I
could harely gain an idea of its general purport; that too, in spite of
the help offered hy the tabulations of the terms, better preserved
because they were placed at the end of the book. At any rate the
general scheme of assignment of the terms is as follows. For their
arrangement within each sign, the exaltations, triplicities, and
houses are taken into consideration. For, generally speaking, the
star that has two rulerships
of this sort in the same sign is placed
first, even though it may be maleficent. But wherever this condition
does not exist, the maleficent planets are always put last, and the
lords of the exaltation first, the lords of the triplicity next, and then
those of the house, following the order of the signs. And again in
order, those that have two lordships each are preferred to the one
which has but one in the same sign. Since terms are not allotted to
the luminaries, however, Cancer and Leo, the houses of the sun and
moon, are assigned to the maleficent planets because they were
deprived of their share in the order, Cancer to Mars and Leo to
Saturn; in these the order appropriate to them is preserved.''

Reference: XXIII ( same as above chapter )

Originally posted by Havick007
reply to post by Byrd

---

I agree in regard to the Roman link to Leo.

(huge snippage)

Perhaps after taking over they took ancient knowledge that had been in Egypt for many centuries or milennia before thier arrival.

They actually imposed their own beliefs rather than incorporate much of what was in Egypt (because all the civilizations were literate then, we can compare changes in beliefs and technology and manuscripts.) The Egyptians were not as good at math as the Babylonians and Greeks (we know this from suriviving manuscripts and were not as good at engineering as the Romans of 6th century BC.

We know that the Romans didn't take any astronomical knowledge from the Egyptians because none of the constellations make it from ancient Egyptian depictions to the more recent Roman ones.

The Egyptians did divide the night sky into decans but it's not clear if they related those to constellations or simply to individual stars. If I remember right, the very OLDEST of the astronomical ceilings has just a procession of gods and names but no identifiable constellations (and nothing with lions.)

I'll look it up when I get back home so we can both take a gander at it. I'll see if I can find some information on when they started keeping the hours using the decan method.

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