There has to be some TORTURE situations that are JUSTIFIED

I'm agreeing with everybody 100% that are against torture, murder, capital punishment, rape or any other crime. Not because I'm hypereligious but because it's bad. It's just like Albert Camus said: "There is always a reason for murdering a man. But there is no justification for his existence.". And this works for every murder, rape and even torture.

Honestly, some of you all need to realize that shows like '24' are just television shows.

The people I'm talking about are the ones assuming that torture works to obtain useful information. It doesn't, so do yourself a favor and stop drinking Dick Cheney's kool aid. As has been stated numerous times in this thread, the person who will crack under torture will tell their tormentor anything they think said tormentor wants to hear in order to stop the torture. Just think about that. If you capture me and ask me if I was the leader of the Khmer Rouge, I would of course say I wasn't (born in 78, so I couldn't possibly have been). Now, if you set me on fire and tell me you will put out the fire and get me medical attention if I just admit that I was, guess what I'm going to say. Need a scapegoat for any number of criminal acts? Hook me up to an electric chair and crank it up. Now tell me you'll stop if I just admit to- I don't even need to hear what you want me to admit to. Yes, I did it. Just please stop electrocuting me. That's what torture gets you.

Think for a second about extremists. These are not people lacking conviction who kinda, sorta believe in their cause. These are indoctrinated, brain-washed extremists. They convinced a young man to wear explosives in his freaking underwear, people. He was willing to do that to himself. You think anything you could do to him would change his mind, reverse his conviction in his cause or convince him to talk to you so you could spoil his plan? Just think about it. It's nice to think you could go all Jack Bauer and save the world because you're willing to get your hands dirty and work outside the limits of law; but real life doesn't work that way. You have to understand that the 'good guys' can't always stop the 'bad guys', no matter how willing they are to "do whatever it takes".

If you really believe that torture works to extract good information, then why not allow it to be legal for our civil law enforcement to use? Maybe they round you up as a suspect in a murder, kidnapping, or rape case, feel they have a strong case against you and torture you to get that good information that torture extracts. Sound a little too much like Syria for you? If torture works, as some here claim to believe it does, then wouldn't you be exonerated if you were truly innocent? Your confession while being tortured could be looked at in two possible ways:

1- Under the duress of torture, you said whatever you needed to say in order for the torture to stop; thus proving that torture is ineffective.
2- Under the duress of torture, you came clean and admitted your crime; thus proving torture is an effective form of interrogation.

It's like Ben Franklin said- "They who can give up essential liberty for a little temporary safety, deserve neither liberty nor safety." Liberty means freedom from arbitrary or despotic government or control. A government who tortures is despotic, in that it rules with absolute power. Therefore those who claim torture is justified in order to save x-amount of lives, are the exact people Franklin was talking about. They'd give up liberty to obtain a little temporary safety, and like Franklin said, they deserve neither liberty nor safety.

That's a terrible thing to say, or even consider! You'd honestly sit there and torture Osama? Come on... For God's sake

What I see is a direct correlation between those who condone torture and those who:
A] profess disdain for Muslims; and
B) provide some movie script scenario for why torture would be justified.

Yep. The media has done a damn fine job of programming.
Programming YOU.
Just when you believed you were thinking for yourself
It's not funny or ironic, it's deadly serious.
As those who support the use of torture help to justify it's use.
Will you still feel the same when it's turned against Americans who think our government needs radical change?
I can guarantee that the use of torture will go beyond suspected Muslim terrorists/insurgents.
If the government can get away with it, they will NEVER stop doing it unless forced to under enormous pressure by the American public.
Look at how long it took to get us out of Vietnam.

500 years of progress in the treatment of the public since the Magna Carta is being thrown down the drain and some of you are actually cheering it.

The rights of the one are the rights of all.
That which we deny another will be denied unto ourselves.

Justified or not... Torture doesn't work...


It's really that simple....

reply to post by MoreFunky85


There is no need to torture people when you can just inject truth serum into them and find out the truth.

You are either a civilized human being and agree to abide by the rules (like the Geneva Convention) or you are a uncivilized human being and disregard social agreements.

Civilized order through law vs chaos & disorder through disregarding of law.

I have studied torture and the act of torture does not produce "information". Once tortured, the victim will confess to and say anything that they think will get them out of being tortured.

God, I cannot believe anyone saying torture "in certain situations" is acceptable.

Torture is wrong, be it an animal or human.

It is wrong as is murder/war/execution/abortion.

No one has the right to torture or kill another human being.

Yes, for protein animals must be killed (humanely) but there is NEVER EVER a justified reason to torture or murder another human.

I was also in nursing and have seen gunshot wounds, stabbings, burnings and a couple people accidently electrocuted.

Possibly you have never dealt with another human being being hurt seriously.

No, there is NEVER a justified cause for torture.

Once you cross that line, there is no going back. You have stooped to the level of the evil you are fighting.

You than become exactly that which you are trying to fight. You sink to a subhumane level.

And, war is nothing more than mass murder on a grand scale that is state sanctioned.



For criminals that are convicted of murder or extreme violence, they should be imprisoned with no chance of parole.

reply to post by Asktheanimals


Very wise post Asktheanimals. I hope everyone goes back and rereads what you wrote.

Again, there are certain lines best left not crossed.

Now, not only has America used torture (like all those 3rd world South American Countries we use to joke about) We are the only country to thus far have used weapons of mass destruction not once but twice.

Karma is a *itch and what goes around comes around.

As above so below.

reply to post by MoreFunky85

What would you do if terrorist kidnapped someone in your family? What would you want your government to do to gain information to find them? This question is for everyone, think about it.

Originally posted by thecinic
This reminds me of the movie unthinkable.... It doesn't make tourture good. Some times it's neccesary to save lives. In the movie they have to tortoure this guy who planted 4 nukes around the USA. They had to get the information out of him.
The vietcongs would cut your thing off and stick it in your mouth..... until you bleed out.
Waterboarding sounds like paradise....

edit on 23-10-2010 by thecinic because: (no reason given)

Exactly. I suppose some of these people would rather tell their wives and children they would rather let them be raped and murdered by an unscrupulous enemy rather than torture a very guilty and evil man to possibly find out the information that could save their lives.

reply to post by NonKonphormist

One of the main problems with torture is that the person being tortured will agree to anything and say whatever you want them to say just to put an end to the torture. Therefore, the information recieved is worthless. On this basis, it's not worth the effort. IMO.

Not really. There are procedures that eliminate that risk, however it is possible. I believe the KUBARK manual references to that issue.

Originally posted by MrAtomicspace
reply to post by NonKonphormist

 

One of the main problems with torture is that the person being tortured will agree to anything and say whatever you want them to say just to put an end to the torture. Therefore, the information recieved is worthless. On this basis, it's not worth the effort. IMO.

Not really. There are procedures that eliminate that risk, however it is possible. I believe the KUBARK manual references to that issue.

There are, and a skilled tortured with time on his hands can make damn sure if the victim is lieing he will pay for it and not be so likely to next time or the time after. Eventually death is the most welcome option and you will give them what they want to achieve it.

Originally posted by ofhumandescent
You are either a civilized human being and agree to abide by the rules (like the Geneva Convention) or you are a uncivilized human being and disregard social agreements.

*Ideally* life is that black and white; good versus evil. *Realistically,* life is not. Like in Star Wars, when Anakin says something like "You are either with me or against me." Obi-wan replies that that is how the Sith sees things. I only bring up Star Wars because you are portraying "You are EITHER this or that." Life is not as black and white as Star Wars. There is no simple Good vs Evil. Yes, there is Good vs Evil, but unfortunately, that battle, in this world, is fought in SHADES OF GRAY.

Originally posted by ofhumandescent
Civilized order through law vs chaos & disorder through disregarding of law.

Again, LIFE is not an either or; it's not that simple. You/we are FREE because GOOD PEOPLE have had to do BAD THINGS. Don't gloss over that fact. If you are in America, or any western nation, this is especially true. WWII was not a bed of roses. German infantrymen were mutilated and slain in battles of horrific nature. These Germans were sons, fathers, brothers, etc. They played the violin. They loved, they wished, they had aspirations. They were called to war. They were forced to kill by their officers, their government. They were almost mercilessly killed by allied troops. They were stabbed. They were gored. They were blown into red, humid chunks and bloody clouds. Did the allied troops that killed them act wrongfully? Are we speaking ENGLISH because of their deeds? Good people are forced to act in SHADES OF GRAY in order to protect people who are not part of the fight. They must do terrible things, like blow other people up in war, to make sure YOU / WE are FREE.

Originally posted by ofhumandescent
I have studied torture and the act of torture does not produce "information". Once tortured, the victim will confess to and say anything that they think will get them out of being tortured.

Other people have studied torture, too, I imagine. I'm sure of it. It's pretty much a fact. Sometimes, torture has provided ACTIONABLE INTELLIGENCE that has led to the saving of lives. Is this common? Perhaps not. It might even be rare. However, it might be a greater crime to take no action, however distasteful, to save lives. Again, once war begins, most civility is out of the window. Sure, torture brings that person to say anything to stop the pain. Sometimes what that person says helps save lives. Is it good? Surely not. But, again, sometimes GOOD PEOPLE must do BAD THINGS for the GREATER GOOD. That is not saying you can do *anything* in an open-ended "the ends justify the means" statement. I don't condone torture, or any "bad" deed. But, I also realize that we have our freedomes because there are special operations guys out there who put their lives on the line and do "bad" things against WORSE people. If not for their efforts, we wouldn't be able to enjoy our freedoms. Thank God we have people who are willing to do those things so we can enjoy our FREEDOM.

Originally posted by ofhumandescent
God, I cannot believe anyone saying torture "in certain situations" is acceptable.

You can thank the fact that you are free enough to type that without the SECRET POLICE coming to your door to a LOT of people giving their lives for our freedom. Those people had to commit UNSPEAKABLE acts of violence against other humans in bloody conflicts. Perhaps your view of the world would change if you saw your friends being mowed-down by machine guns. That might inspire some strong feelings in you about who is good, who is evil and what they deserve, and what you might do to save the lives of your friends and countrymen. I've noticed that people who have never lifted a hand to defend their country feel QUITE DIFFERENTLY about what is good and what is bad when it comes to doing what is NECESSARY for our freedom and the defense of our nation. From the IVORY TOWER of never having lifted a hand to defend any country, people see things as appauling and they are very judgemental. From the TRENCHES, there is a different outlook. The hypocrisy is that there could be NO IVORY TOWERS without good folks doing harsh things in the TRENCHES.

Originally posted by ofhumandescent
It is wrong as is murder/war/execution/abortion.

Whooa. Abortion? While it is not something anyone wants, what if you were RAPED? What if you have a HUGE chance of dying during the pregnancy/delivery because of HEALTH REASONS? Yeah, no one wants an abortion, but you can't just arbitrarily state that abortion is wrong. As with ANYTHING in life, it's the REASON you do something that makes it wrong or right. If not having an abortion means the mother would pretty-much DIE, well, then, thank God there are doctors out there who will do what is necessary for THE GREATER GOOD. Again, you NEVER want an abortion, but there are specific circumstances when it is NECESSARY. Just like torture. You never want to have to torture someone. You really, really don't. Yet... in some few circumstances... ESPECIALLY IF IT MIGHT SAVE LIVES... What is the greater evil... Not torture to get info, or allow possibly dozens or hundreds or more people to die from collateral damage? This is not Hollywood programming. This is the world we live in.

Originally posted by ofhumandescent
No one has the right to torture or kill another human being.

Have you seen the news about that infamous home invasion on the news lately? Where the invaders sent the woman to the bank? Where she called 911 from the bank and the police didn't get there for almost an hour? Where the killers raped her 11 year old child, where they raped her? Where they killed the other child? Where the husband was left for dead in the basement while they burned the house down? Do you think the husband, if he'd had the capability to do so, do you think he had a right to defend his family with lethal force? Be careful before you answer too quickly.

Also, I shoud add that there are different degrees of "torture." Sleep deprivation is a LOT DIFFERENT than using hedge trimmers to cut off a person's fingers one at a time. Playing loud/offensive music is a LOT DIFFERENT than inserting bamboo shoots under fingernails or into other body parts. There are different degrees of "torture."

Personally, I don't think we should torture. We are, after all, the GOOD GUYS, if that has any meaning left in this day and age. But, at the very least, we should be above the actions of "evil" people. If *we* can't be the good guys, then who can? However, the temptation is there to try to extract any information you can from someone who *just might* know something that might allow combatants to save the lives of a mother and her children. The question is, do you cross that line in order to try to save those lives, or simply take no action and cross your fingers that that mother and her children won't be killed. I suppose that in war, there are NO GOOD ANSWERS.

Originally posted by flyingfish
reply to post by TheImmaculateD1

 

Blah! I tell you what any one subjects your loved ones to pain you will compensate.If not your what?

I would want to know why so that I can do to make sure that no one else has to be subjected to what that person was subjected to that forced them into thinking about murdering someone.

All these people want is what we want ; to live life with oppourtunities for advancement, a carrer they can be proud of, to provide the very best for themselves and thier family. Give someone a spot where they can get some education and a job and watch how quick thier life changes. They will in roughly 9.2 - 9.6 out of 10 cases someone will choose to live and make a better life for thier family.

The more that people see in regards to frequency of gunfire exchange, bombing campaigns, destruction of everything around them, constantly getting shifted around from one spot to the next, seeing this one and that one get thier skull kicked in, raped, molested and murdered the less it is seen it tends to become a distant memory and in it's place is what we have in 1st world countries.

reply to post by MoreFunky85


Dude, Bin Laden is a patsy. Even the BBC admitted Al Queda does not exist and those soldiers we saw with him in videos were hired for the day. Those videos we have of him admitting to 9/11 are clearly staged with actors that look nothing like the man himself. The nineteen alleged hijackers did not exist either. Six or seven of them are reported to be alive and well within the country, even to this day. A fairy tale order of Muslim extremists is not responsible for 9/11 and government higher-ups are well aware of this. Cheney supports the use of torture because he's a sick bastard, not because he gives a damn about you or anybody else in this country. You should look a little deeper first to see if it's even worth trying to justify something as atrocious as torture for whatever reason. Besides, even if the cover story is true and this man is somehow responsible for the biggest breach in national security since that crusty old Russian guy, does that mean we should abandon our ideals and stoop down to the level of barbarism just to satisfy our outrage? This is supposed to be the greatest country on earth, so screw torture. We're better than that. I'd rather we spent our energy tracking down and putting a stop to our disgusting yet apparently bankrupt shadow government. Those guys can actually still do some damage, unlike Bin Laden, who may already be long dead (or so I've heard).

reply to post by MoreFunky85


Torture has been proven to yield no real results.

If someone stuck a red hot poker where the sun does not shine, you would say just about anything to have it removed and the pain go away. In that moment you will say anything.

It leads to wrongful convictions and wrongful justice, both leading to the real perpetrators being left to run free.

reply to post by darkdays4u (well, sort of)


Right, we don't even have proof that any of these so-called terrorists are even guilty of their crimes. For all we know, they're just political prisoners of our shadow government's drug and arms cartel, or just poor bastards the twisted higher-ups get a kick out of tormenting unlawfully. It's no secret our country has hideous prison camps around the world that engage in torture. Let's not forget Abu Ghraib either. There was a quiet scandal American military personnel raping Iraqi children on various occasions, among other serious crimes. Do some reading.

None of these people have been charged with any crime, and it's a very bad sign that the American public can assume all of them deserve to be tortured when there's just as much chance these prisoners are innocent. Isn't that a founding principle of our nation? Innocent until proven guilty? Torture and this other Nazi crap that goes on behind the scenes is absolutely unAmerican. There's not even a shred of hard evidence that Bin Laden himself had a thing to do with 9/11. That's not to say he's innocent, but this is a slippery slope to be climbing down. I certainly don't want the government to have the right to kidnap and legally torture me if I piss the wrong people off. It goes against the spirit of freedom we're supposedly fighting this illegal war over to begin with. Let's not destroy our image completely. Less primitive human beings might read about this stuff in the future.