There has to be some TORTURE situations that are JUSTIFIED

After just skimming over the posts here, I don't see any answers that really hit the nail on the head. I probably haven't read them all, but I haven't seen anyone mention the most important, numero uno, prevailing reason we shouldn't torture. For me, this is very clear. The reason is, that it's not up to the government (meaning executive branch, or military) to decide who is guilty or innocent. We have a judicial system for that. The accused have a right to appear before a court. This right is called habeas corpus. If the government can torture anyone they want, that means they can put people in jail for any reason they want. Heck, it's not that far from letting them kill anyone they want. It's great to respect the military, but it's insane to wholeheartedly trust every single member of the armed forces not to torture, kill or punish the wrong guy. Never mind the military, what about the president? Do you trust him that much? Do you trust his successor that much?

Then you have the issue of whether not torture is cruel and unusual punishment, but I'm not even going to get into that because its of secondary importance. First and foremost, the accused have to get their day in court.

And finally, if the government is torturing someone who knows where a time bomb is, they are free to have at it without making torture legal. In that case torture can be considered self-defense, which is already legal.

Torture is not effective at anything except venting violent emotion. Study after study shows it doesnt get good info from anyone. In fact it gets more bad info which in effect is inadvertent disinformation.

Its good for barbarians being barbarians.

CHILD MOLESTERS they are the ones that deserves to be tortured no secant chances for jackasses like that and i don't care who disagrees with what I am saying if you try to justify them your just as bad

reply to post by Exuberant1


YEA OK HITLER LOL!! He is not promoting He just wants to understand folks who were taught something different. He has lived in a box and doesnt understand that if there was no disconnect between the dead bodies and iraq and the tax money leaving your hand to fund the murders in IRAQ we WOULD DECLARE PEACE TOMMOROW we would feel soo much remorse at ALL the innocents we helped kill in IRAQ that we would be sick to our stomach and we would NEVER declare ANOTHER WAR AGAIN. HOWEVER the GOVT is extremely good at blocking that connection and those images. MY question to the OP. IF a pitbull bit you would it feel good if you caught it and you tortured it? ? ? EYE FOR AN EYE ??? Then TRUST ME you would know it doesnt feel RIGHT to hurt people just because you CAN!!!! GIVE IT A TRY! LAST TIME YOU BEAT SOMEONE UP DID YOU FEEL BAD LATER OR DID YOU GO HOME A BRAG TO YOUR DAD IN A PERVERTED MANNER BECAUSE YOU WERE TAUGHT IT?

Originally posted by Interfacer
reply to post by Exuberant1

 

LAST TIME YOU BEAT SOMEONE UP DID YOU FEEL BAD LATER OR DID YOU GO HOME A BRAG TO YOUR DAD IN A PERVERTED MANNER BECAUSE YOU WERE TAUGHT IT?

[atsimg]http://files.abovetopsecret.com/images/member/85f193c39072.jpg[/atsimg]



What do you mean broski?

reply to post by Distractions4Nothing


WE HAVE A JUDICIAL SYSTEM. Tell that to the burgler who robs your home when you are sleeping. Tell that to the murderer in the night , at your home. I'm sure they will be very sympathetic of your views and leave your home. Tell that to the child molester killer, Tell that to the plane bombers when they are on your plane with knives. SAY, and tell them right then, you will be prosecuted by the law. AT that point in time when this all goes down, you are not thinking of a judicial system. YOU ARE THINKING OF STAYING ALIVE. Judicial system, if our gov't really wants you bad, ( kid you not, you have no rights,( except the right to DIE.) Their will be no smiley faces at that point in time or a judicial system, only a fight or flight reaction. If a molester rapes your child, do you want them to have a fair trial? NO, YOU DO NOT. For you do not care for that person. You may even ponder to get revenge or torture them in some way. Reality is, THAT MOMENT IN TIME.Revenge, Rage Anger has no boundaries. Torture, well, that depends on how far you want your anger to go to satisfy your means. Torture, well ask the ones who were wronged about that one, cause everyones anger is satisfied differently. If i was angry enough, i would consider torture, other than that a bullet in the head. If the crime was less in my eyes, i would not torture or kill but sent them to jail where they belong. THIS IS REALITY.

What would be the point of torturing bin Laden? He is supposedly the head of al Qaeda and if captured, attacks would likely stop or at least diminish. So torturing him would only be for revenge and make "us" no better than him.

reply to post by InvisibleAlbatross


Torture is against international law, the Geneva Convention and our morals as a nation.

As a Former Marine, I would kill and die for my country, but not torture for it. I would not turn into an animal and lose my soul for my country. God is first, if you can't be right with him, you're f****d and nothing else really matters.

I hope this isn't a sign of the Republicans bringing back torture after the elections. I sincerely warn fellow Americans to reject torture as un-American as it will lead to our demise as a great nation.

Originally posted by sm403
CHILD MOLESTERS they are the ones that deserves to be tortured no secant chances for jackasses like that and i don't care who disagrees with what I am saying if you try to justify them your just as bad

yes "if you disagree with me than your a child molester" yea right. Nice logic.

If you stand against war than you are not patriotic.

If you disagree with the President than you are for the terrorists!

etc etc

I disagree with you. Torturing does no good regardless of the crime. Someone cant get along and play well with others? Put em in a cage.

Torture them and you lower us, you to the level of the people being punished thus Validating their existence and behavior.

reply to post by AP-Chris


well said. As well when our guys get captured they will then torture them. Its bad all around.

Torture has no place in a Civilised society. Other members have already given a variety of reasons why Torture is a negative and unnecessary form of behaviour. It is also in most cases counter-productive to the justifications offered by those who claim to support it.

I will leave you with this quote:

""But thus I counsel you, my friends: Mistrust all in whom the impulse to punish is powerful." - Friedrich Nietzsche.

Yes, some few tortures are justified. When you are torturing to save MORE LIVES, yes. Of course, that's pretty broad. But think about it. A detainee might have information that will save not only the lives of U.S. soldiers, but also innocent civilians. And the MF-er won't talk. Is it justified to torture him in order to save the lives of allied combatants and innocent civilians (children, etc.)? You decide. Maybe the greater evil is NOT to torture him, NOT to get the information that might save dozens or hundreds of lives...? It's very, very subjective.

I'd like to weigh in on the discussion of torture's effectiveness as well, since I'm not sure how many other people in this thread have ever actually been held in custody and questioned about their actions by the military (which I was on a much lower level than terrorists are, as a result of certain misconduct during my service).

I would not define anything that I experienced as torture, but some of the NCOs did make it their business to make sure that I was sufficiently sorry, and when they didn't feel they were doing enough damage, they began to try and coerce various statements and actions from me that would make my situation worse (one of the bastards tried to get me to renounce my citizenship even).

I experienced mild sleep deprivation (3 or 4 days on 2 hours sleep a night- don't remember which it was), was cheated out of meals on multiple non-consecutive occasions, was repeatedly cornered and threatened/challenged and once actually assaulted (I was kinda hoping the arm was broken for his sake, but no such luck), then of course there was the actual legitimate disciplinary process.

The result? I went from being a guy who turned himself in and cooperated to a guy who wouldn't cooperate with anything. I went on hunger strike to draw attention to them cheating me out meals. They sent me back to my platoon for a forced march and bivouac to try and break that, so I stopped drinking water too in hopes that I'd have a heat stroke and get my NCOs NJPed along with me for their extra-procedural efforts against me. Fortunately (at least in retrospect) it was cool and damp both days so I made it back to company office intact and was able to start drinking water again.

Would I have broken if they had tried harder? How would I know? I've never been that far. All I know is that I went a little crazy towards the end of the experience and I started to contemplate both suicide and murder, but I was only more determined not to cooperate. I even insisted on being enemies with the one Sgt who seemed to be more or less on my side.

However, I was by no means a rock. I was messed up bad and I made a lot of mistakes. But do you know what caused the mistakes I made? Being left alone. It's was a power struggle. It was all about who could control the situation and who could not. And as long as they were coming after me, I could have control by making them fail. But during the times when they weren't doing anything and I didn't know what the next step was, I got antsy. You can't be in control when the only objective your holders are working on is to leave you alone with nothing to do and no way to do it while they go about their business. That always made me try to take the initiative, and the harder I tried to initiate and control the development of my situation, the more mistakes I made.

It therefore makes perfect sense to me that good treatment worked so well in several applications during WWII. Good treatment still leaves you somewhere you don't want to be with no control, and you will be generally unhappy, regardless of how well you may be treated. The goal then becomes to keep yourself together so that you can again be some good for your cause or at least your comrades when the opportunity arises- but to do that you need the good treatment, which you don't control. And it will happen all on its own that you will have a down day, and you will need more of that support that you don't have control over, and that's gonna gnaw on you.

And if you take the initiative and try to engage procure what you think you need to continue your mental resistance, they are going to know that you aren't really trying to help them, and they're gonna make it difficult, but they will also play along and make it seem like you can achieve your goal. Now your playing mental chess with someone who gets his way from other people for a living, and you're definitely going to make a mistake and lose, right when you think you've got him.

If good interrogation is a game, and torture is not a game at all, then torture is not good interrogation. And I'm quite certain that those premises are correct.

reply to post by MoreFunky85


No one is angry. You are innocent unless proven guilty. So is Bin Laden... or we are going back into time when mysticism, opinion or a mood was preferable tool for justice instead of EVIDENCE AND REASON!

Absolutely not.
This is like saying, 'There are some 9 year olds that are o.k. to rape'
Get a grip. You probably watch too much '24'.
Torture does NOT WORK! Its a myth. Its all in your head.
Anyone from an extreme terrorist outfit, that you managed to capture, is ready to die anyway, they don't care what you do to them.
If you had ever been tortured, as I have, you would know what I mean.
'He jests at stripes who never felt a wound'
Romeo and Juliet

reply to post by MoreFunky85


Well, first a confession (Very apt) I have not read all of the replies... sorry

I just want to point out one thing... the way you worded the title is more worrying to me than anything else. It almost sounds like a plea...

"There has to be some TORTURE situations that are JUSTIFIED"

I could almost be followed by... "please, for the love of God, wont somebody let us torture people"

Sounds like you’re begging for it... that to me is more worrying than if you just stated that you believe in torture.

Thanks to this i now have an image of you in a basement, leather apron and electrodes in hand, and a sad puppy look on you face


Sorry... just wanted to point that out...

Hmmm... maybe i'll add some more...


My take on it... When you torture someone it turns you into the lowest form of human life... even if you start off with good intention (to save a nation, save a bus full of people, stop a bomber etc) it will rot your mind stain your soul.

Torture has been proven to be ineffective anyway, often leaving the victim in such a state of panic that they confess to whatever they think you want to hear regardless of if they actually committed the alleged crime!

Once you use Torture to fight evil you become a hypocrite.


Peace!

Originally posted by NonKonphormist
One of the main problems with torture is that the person being tortured will agree to anything and say whatever you want them to say just to put an end to the torture.
Therefore, the information recieved is worthless.
On this basis, it's not worth the effort. IMO.

Dead on NK.

Torture only gets you what the subject THINKS you want to hear, especially with people willing to die for their belief system. This leads to a great waste in resources running up blind alleys, while the subject finds a way to kill him or her self to avoid more torture.

But forget the efficiency of the effort altogether: Torture is simply WRONG. We have a Constitution with a 5th amendment that says that for US citizens - so I feel it is abhorrent to practice it on any human being.

We need to be better and SMARTER than that, lest we maintain a unit of professional sadists.

Drugs are a much better way such as the dreamtime scenario.

You evaluate the subject, then you drug him or her to the gills into a semi-dream state, where they cannot distinguish reality from dream, then you present them with images to stimulate responses.

If they are looking for Allah or Micky Mouse, you give 'em that as you pry them open, and make them feel safe, like you know everything already - then they will talk.

If they don't at first, then refine your questions and repeat.

And you wonder why a huge majority of freedom loving non us folk dispice your evil nation, thank god i know theres good americans just your not one of them ~ May God Protect Julian Asange

reply to post by MoreFunky85


Someone's kidnapped a friend or family member and have them tied up/held somewhere.

"Where are they!"

""

"I said where are they?"

""

"Fine, you leave me no choice."

"ARRRRGGGGGHGHHGHGHGHGHGH"

"WHERE ARE THEY??"

"I dont know i'm just the next door neighbour, you go tthe wrong guy"

Originally posted by MoreFunky85
I'm sure I'm going to make some people angry with this post but so be it. First I would like to say that I do believe in human rights, and this is all theoretical what I am saying. If we (the United States) actually found Osama Bin Laden should we be "caring and considerate" of his needs while he is being detained? Whatever your view, if you believe 9-11 was an inside job or not. Lets say that absolutely everything the media and U.S. gov. has claimed about 9-11 is true. That Bin Laden is the mastermind behind it all. Not to mention other terrorist attacks. Why shouldn't we torture this guy to get the proper information we need? If it was one of your own family members murdered on 9-11 would you be so concerned about the fair treatment of Osama?

Now I must say that I absolutely do not agree with every instance of torture. But if this is someone who we knew for sure was the perpetrator, why would you be so concerned about his well being? I am making this post because I just cannot understand why there are people in the United States who are more concerned about the fair treatment of insurgents, or terrorists that we do capture, than the ,families of 9-11 victims, or our soldiers families. It is your God given right to say what you want, have any opinion, and protest about anything. But I just want to understand, that's all. For the most part the people of the middle east hate the U.S. and the rest of the western world. Yet there are people here defending them. I don't get it.

While Iraq in my own opinion was a major mistake to occupy, we should have been more focused on finding Bin Laden and others. There are countries in the middle east we have spent billions of dollars on in aid so the people over there can eat, and try to make a decent life for themselves, and they still want to cut our heads off. I mean no disrespect in this post, I just want some other ATSers to possibly help me understand this whole thing. Please.

I can comprehend the dilema you're facing. Ive struggled with it too. Professionally and personally.
When I departed from circular moral arguments, what it came down to for me is a matter of reliability.
Torture is the least reliable method of extracting information. Its that simple.

Anyone, suitably tortured or terrorised, would admit to being your mother if it meant the torture would stop.
That fact alone, makes anything revealed under dress of that kind, ultimately worthless...unreliable at best. Informed gleaned through acts of torture provide a false sense of security at a time when security is most important. Its a set up for failure. To resort to it, gives a victory to your enemy on two fronts.

To go back to the moral argument, even there if you look close enough, the acts of torture themselves arent the greatest risks. Rather it is our desire to torture that poses the greatest threat to our personal integrity and psychological stability as a whole.

Rosha