is anyone going to give an opinion or at least tell me to shut up

What!

The UK taxpayer already pays between 20/30 billion a year! heh Another 16 billion we can afford it....

(im being sarcastic by the way)

Tony Blair has a lot to answer for, 60 million people in the UK and no one has the guts put that sucker down....

There is no better way to get a country to sign its soul away by lying to them. This doesn't suprise me. But on the bright side, if either UK,France or Germany get a no vote on the public vote, the constitution will not happen.

we need a vote on EU membership as well as the constitution vote

UK out of EU please
people say if the UK leaves then the EU will cut trade with us... wrong ... both France and Germany would end up in an economic slump if they stopped trading with us... the grants that the EU gives us... our money to start with... for every £2 we put in we get £1
And for people who say europe will go back to the bad old days of war, who the hell in europe would attack each other, NATO and the UN would never allow it

and nobody can defend the EU fishing policies... nobody

[edit on 27-6-2004 by UK Wizard]

Im with you Wiz UK out of EU!

i've yet to find anyone who can defend the EU will out calling me a anti-european, i have nothing against any european countries it's the EU i hate

come on pro-EU people take your best shot

[edit on 27-6-2004 by UK Wizard]

Ditto im with you UK Wizard.

Fact is the EU is Hitlers dream of total control made manefest. George Orwell's 1984 an approaching reality. They want to control EVERYTHING. Even right down to the way we think, speak and even feel with their politically correct crap.

Its a long process where they worm their way into every aspect of our lives so referendum or not the prosess will be difficult to reverse no matter the poll result. The EU was invented back in 1922 by a British and French businessmen. Thats why its so insidious its taken them 80 odd years to slowly sneak their way into all our lives.

Even the Bible talks of the 'devils nation of the beast' arising in the End of Days. It shall have the Head of a Lion (UK symbol)and the feet of a Bear (Russia's symbol and they are looking to join up and or have a pact with the EU after transferring all their US dollars into Euros) The devils nation will be represented by a woman sitting on a beast of burden and she will be wearing a crown of ten thorns upon her head.

Ten thorns: origonal 10 member states of EU.
Crown of thorns: EU Flag
Woman astride a beast of burden: This is actually used by the EU as their symbol.

Heh all we need now is for the devil to claim his throne and we are ALL stuffed royally.

europe would be more united without the EU we could all be members of a free trade agreement but develop how each country wants to develop

(i'm still waiting for pro-EU people to agrue with me )

Originally posted by UK Wizard
europe would be more united without the EU we could all be members of a free trade agreement but develop how each country wants to develop

(i'm still waiting for pro-EU people to agrue with me )

Not alot to argue really. The EU is anti-competition (Unless you are Airbus, or other EU conglomerates), racist (The US having to push to admit Turkey), and they continue to flaunt thier own economic requirments for membership.

i was wondering when you would reply StrangeLands

Yes i know the source i used was crap (and i said proposed not comfirmed just incase the source was wrong )

i will find some info to support my european economic (france, germany) statement

(see post soon)

I HAVE NOTHING AGAINST EUROPE OR EUROPEANS

"The EU is bad but Europe is okay, apart from all the countries in Europe. They're clearly bad."

i love the mixture of cultures in Europe, people, food, history, language etc



[edit on 28-6-2004 by UK Wizard]

Ooh! Damn! Here am I, listing reliable sources of anti-EU bilious nonsense, and I forgot the Telegraph!

I think I'll reply to your posts in order, Wizard:

Originally posted by UK Wizard
i was wondering when you would reply StrangeLands

Well, I wasn't going to reply, because I didn't want you to think I was persecuting you. But then, you had to go too far, didn't you?

they couldn't afford to stop trading with any of the big european countries (not just Britain) or they would have a shortage of goods and their already growing unemployment would erupt

That is possibly true, although I'll leave it for qualified economists to bicker over the minutiae, but there are several key factors which are - unsurprisingly - absent from that story. Firstly, the figures are from 2002, and, although France had a bad time in 2003, they are now rapidly returning to stability. By 2005, predictions say that France's deficit will fall below the magical 3% limit, and their growth rate will be back around the 2% level. Unemployment, too, is growing at a slower rate than at any point in the last five years.

Secondly, it's worth remembering that GDP growth in the Eurozone averaged 2% over the past 5 years. The economies of five of the core EU countries grew faster than Britain over the same period.

And thirdly, of course, you must remember that withdrawing from the EU would make it even more expensive for France to trade with us, whatever state their economy is in. It's just not going to happen - a cut in mutual trade would be inevitable, and we would lose out too. The difference is that France would lose one of their foreign markets - we would lose twenty five.

Put simply, being on the outside of the EU excludes us from the trade and economic advantages shared by the member countries - even if our economy is stronger right now, it won't remain so when every British company who sells a product or a service in Europe is being significantly penalised.

They can afford the loss. We can't.

are you going to reply to the we put in £2 and get £1 back arguement Strangelands

Beyond the urban myth, I can't find any concrete figures which support that statement, Wizard. If you can find them, I'll respond, but at the moment I'd have to say that it's just untrue. I have found, however, independant assesments which reveal that Britain is £14 billion poorer because we didn't join the Euro when it was launched. Moreover, since the Euro was launched, Britain's share of foreign investment to EU countries (i.e. from America, Japan, Australia etc.) has fallen from 28% to less than 5%*.

Food for thought, no?

£16 billion for new EU nations.... can any one say BRIBE

Can anyone say "investment in our new companion countries"? Really, Wizard, I see no evidence that this is a bribe. After all, the money was announced after the excession companies agreed to the Constitution. It's true that several of the countries had opposed the Constitution in the past - but they are publicly-recorded and very clear reasons why they felt, in the end, that they agreed with it. This, I'm afraid, is smoke where there is no fire - and the proof of that is that the fact is buried away in a closing paragraph of an obscure Telegraph article.

And, by the way, if the EU is being so generous with subsidy money, don't you think we should be getting some of it, not relying on crippled trade with the EU and the same old disadvantageous trade with the US for our cash?


*Source: a United Nations World Investment Report which I can't find a link to on the net, but I have sitting on the desk in front of me. Trust me.

there's just no convincing some people
i'm not a economist so all this trade and economy stuff doesn't make sense to me

The things you (StrangeLands) keep on picking up on is trade and economies, would it not be better to get rid of the EU and set up a european free and fair trade organisation (orginal purpose of EU) and get rid of all this waste and buroacracy

Then there wouldn't be this devision on other european issues

I can't think of any things that the EU benefits us on apart from trade
Military - nope we got NATO
Enviroment - we can do that without help (globaly we can us UN)
Law - Up to each country
Tax - see above
think of somemore


[edit on 28-6-2004 by UK Wizard]

my father fought for the UK in WW2 and everything he fought for, the preservation of freedom, of sovreinty and independance has just been pissed on by an elitist few and traitors like Stange lands who have no concept of history except to destroy it for their own political advantage. Marching like the enslaved minions in Metropolis.

Piss on the EU and any who support it. Traitors the lot. They can take my country from me over my cold dead bullet ridden body.....

[edit on 28-6-2004 by rustiswordz]

[edit on 28-6-2004 by rustiswordz]

Originally posted by UK Wizard
The things you (StrangeLands) keep on picking up on is trade and economies, would it not be better to get rid of the EU and set up a european free and fair trade organisation (orginal purpose of EU) and get rid of all this waste and buroacracy

Well, I'm actually not too happy arguing economics, though I think the benefits for the UK are clear. Personally, I find the political and cultural arguments much more convincing. I like the idea of closer ties with Europe, of having a single passport and a single currency, allowing us to travel and share in the rich heritage of these countries on equal terms. Equally, tourism to our blessed isle would also increase - everyone benefits!

Better yet, the EU will, in time, act as a trading partner - and competition - to the United States, which can only benefit both unions in the long term. Harmonized - not identical, but equal - legal systems and environmental policies between member states will make the EUs diplomatic power much greater - who knows, we may even be able to pressure the US into signing the Kyoto agreement...

I'm not denying that the EU faces difficulties - including excessive beaurocracy and procedural opacity with will only be remedied by powerful reforms from the inside - and I will admit that every time I get into these debates, I question the conclusions I've come to. Ultimately, however, I keep coming back to the same point - the potential benefits of EU membership vastly - vastly - outnumber the potential pitfalls. I'm not suggesting we rush forward with our eyes closed, but I do think that the UK needs to choose between a bright, friendly future as part of a wider community of nations, and a cold, embittered exile from both the EU and the US.

We can't go back, and we can't force the EU to dissolve. We're either in, or out. Take your pick.

Originally posted by rustiswordz
my father fought for the UK in WW2 and everything he fought for, the preservation of freedom, of sovreinty and independance has just been pissed on by an elitist few and traitors like Stange lands who have no concept of history except to destroy it for their own political advantage. Marching like the enslaved minions in Metropolis.

Still a little bit light on the evidence there, Rusty. I'm also curious to know how exactly I will benefit politically from the EU - seriously, I want to know, because I've heard nothing about it!

In future, before you have the temerity to invoke the memory of fallen heroes to support your tenuous position, you should consider this: the EU stands in place to forever defend Europe from fascism, to protect true democracy for all time. It will prevent the rise of another right-wing nut by supporting healthy, balanced debate and rational dialogue between all member states.

And don't you think it's curious that, by adopting a eurosceptic position based on nothing but myths and fear, you are in full agreement with the fascist threat that faces Europe now? That must sting a bit, huh?

They can take my country from me over my cold dead bullet ridden body.....

Hmmm, how can I put this...

I don't have a problem with that scenario.

im not interested in evidence, i know all i need to. Besides one thing i know listening to pissant traitors like you is that like me youve already made up your mind, so whats the point in arguing. liberals like you have my country by the balls and you love it dont you, absolutely love every miniute as you tear my country a new ar*ehole.

what fascist threat to europe there isn't one

my main point on the EU is i don't want our country to be ran from Brussels, how do they know what life is like in my part of England.
The major problem with EU intergration is that we have very different cultures, eg. meaning one policy in Denmark may be foolish to put into practice in Sweden.

I think the EU could work properly in maybe 30 years but not yet, there is too much change too quick, the people in charge of the EU want total change as fast as possible, we just arn't ready for it.

What's everyone opinion on the EU fisheries policy, now nobody can defend that can they

I my self don't want membership of the EU but would rather have a more international alliance, like the UN but more active in the areas that the EU deals with