A Setback for Neanderthal Smarts?

18 October 2010

Neanderthals are looking sharp these days. Many researchers now credit our evolutionary cousins, once regarded as brutish and dumb, with "modern behavior," such as making sophisticated tools and fashioning jewelry, a sign of symbolic expression. But new radiocarbon dating at a site in France could mar this flattering view. The study concludes that the archaeological layers at the site are so mixed up that ornaments and tools once attributed to Neanderthals could actually be the work of modern humans, who lived in the same cave at a later date.

One prominent researcher even argues that this celebrated site, the Grotte du Renne (literally "reindeer cave") at Arcy-sur-Cure in central France, should now be eliminated from scientific consideration. "This key site should be disqualified from the debate over [Neanderthal] symbolism," says Randall White, an archaeologist at New York University. But João Zilhão, an archaeologist at the University of Bristol in the United Kingdom who has often tussled with White and other researchers over the evidence from the Grotte du Renne, says that the new study "prove[s] the exact opposite of what [its] authors claim."

Who made these? Ornaments long attributed to Neanderthals might have been made by modern humans instead.

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news.sciencemag.org...

There has certainly been a lot of controversy recently about the Neanderthals and how intelligent they were, how advanced with language skills and emotions.

Apparently some think that the ornaments pictured above were made by the Neanderthals but it has come to light that it may not be the case and they could have been made by modern humans, I think the jury is still out on this one given the fact there are some researchers and archaeologists don't believe that could have been as advanced as new evidence is showing.

Not being a scientists or archaeologists, it is my personal opinion that were that advanced even though we may never have definitive proof.

The Neandertal1 or Neanderthal was a species of genus Homo (Homo neanderthalensis) that inhabited Europe and parts of western Asia during the last ice age. They seem to have been well adapted to extreme cold, but appear to have had difficulty adapting to climatic changes near the end of the ice age.

The first Neanderthal fossils were found in 1856 near Düsseldorf in the Neanderthal, Germany. Their characteristic style of stone tools is called the Mousterian Culture (middle paleolithic), after another prominent archaeological site.

Neanderthals first appeared about 230,000 years ago and then disappeared about 28,000 years ago. Their brains were roughly 10 percent larger than those of modern humans. However,though anatomically similar, the brain's increased size can be negated due to their body:brain ratio. On average, Neanderthals stood about 1.65m tall (just under 5' 6") and were very well-muscled, comparable to modern weight-lifters.

Archaeologists contributing to the Lindow Man Project
William King
Phillipe-Charles Schmerling

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Great Archeology

Excellent background on when the Neanderthal were first discovered and when they disappeared approximately 28,000 years ago.

They may have left us more of a legacy then we know, since there is so much information coming out of late I am anxious to learn more.

In the end the truth probably falls somewhere in between. They weren't the brutes that movies depict them as, but they also weren't on the same level as early humans. I'm basing this off the fact that they did have surprisingly complex brains, but they were lacking in the area that really sets humans apart, the prefrontal cortex.

a lack of a ready and easy supply of simple sugars likely kept the neandertals from achieving much more than primitive, hunter-gatherer lives.

hi aquarius, thats some nice work their theres alot of theorys about neanda's i was reading that becouse of the clymate change they might of addapted into homo sapiens us, it also said some people out side of africa could hold up to 4% of neandas dna

a lack of a ready and easy supply of simple sugars likely kept the neandertals from achieving much more than primitive, hunter-gatherer lives

That and a higher protein diet (especially fish) our ancestors ate compared to what Neanderthals subsisted on, our bigger brains and more effective hunting skills giving us the advantage when we'd encounter them.

Originally posted by bigfatfurrytexan
a lack of a ready and easy supply of simple sugars likely kept the neandertals from achieving much more than primitive, hunter-gatherer lives.

I don't agree that they were that primitive, there is much evidence that show the opposite, but do we really know for sure. If they were hunters gatherers it may very well be that they ate root plants which could have contained sugars. It is all intriguing nevertheless.

Thanks for posting.

Originally posted by Blackmarketeer

a lack of a ready and easy supply of simple sugars likely kept the neandertals from achieving much more than primitive, hunter-gatherer lives

That and a higher protein diet (especially fish) our ancestors ate compared to what Neanderthals subsisted on, our bigger brains and more effective hunting skills giving us the advantage when we'd encounter them.

i think they had biger brains size than us (not saying they were smarter)

ow and they did eat shelfish and other sea food found in sites near oceans, rivers what ever i dont think their as dumb as most people think

Originally posted by Blackmarketeer

a lack of a ready and easy supply of simple sugars likely kept the neandertals from achieving much more than primitive, hunter-gatherer lives

That and a higher protein diet (especially fish) our ancestors ate compared to what Neanderthals subsisted on, our bigger brains and more effective hunting skills giving us the advantage when we'd encounter them.

I see we don't agree which is perfectly fine, the fact is much of this is speculation, hopefully we will have more information in the future.

Thanks for posting.

Just a note, there are two ways of spelling.
l. Neanderthal
2.Neanderthals
It all depends on where you get your information from, maybe they are both right.

Originally posted by Aquarius1

Originally posted by bigfatfurrytexan
a lack of a ready and easy supply of simple sugars likely kept the neandertals from achieving much more than primitive, hunter-gatherer lives.

I don't agree that they were that primitive, there is much evidence that show the opposite, but do we really know for sure. If they were hunters gatherers it may very well be that they ate root plants which could have contained sugars. It is all intriguing nevertheless.

Thanks for posting.

True, tubers provide starches. But nothing is like picking a year round supply of sweet, fresh fruit from trees.

Perhaps they were more advanced than I believe. Who knows. I am just spitballing here.

reply to post by bigfatfurrytexan

True, tubers provide starches. But nothing is like picking a year round supply of sweet, fresh fruit from trees.

True but most starches turn into sugar, we also have no idea what was growing 28,000 years ago, they may very well have had fruit trees, berries etc, maybe different then what we have today. The fruit that grows today wasn't created by us, it came from somewhere, maybe a stretch but some of it could have been from that time.

btw love you av.

Good lord I thought the Itallian dig was coming up which is right now the place that rewrites Neanderthal ingenuity, wits and cunningness.

Post them not that long ago.

In here:

Neanderthal... New studies suggests they were more like us then we thought/think

"Basically, I am rehabilitating Neanderthals," said study author Julien Riel-Salvatore. "They were far more resourceful than we have given them credit for." Riel-Salvatore's research is based on seven years of studying Neanderthal sites throughout Italy, with special focus on the vanished Uluzzian culture.

About 42,000 years ago, the Aurignacian culture, attributed to modern Homo sapiens, appeared in northern Italy while central Italy continued to be occupied by Neanderthals of the Mousterian culture which had been around for at least 100,000 years. At this time a new culture arose in the south, one also thought to be created by Neanderthals. They were the Uluzzian and they were very different, according to Riel-Salvatore.

Source: www.scienceagogo.com...

Nevertheless a pleasant and informative thread, as always

Thank you

reply to post by Sinter Klaas


Know what you mean, what is coming out recently reminds me of a yo yo, don't know why some don't want to give credit to the Neanderthals, the present day world doesn't want to know that there may have been civilizations that were just as advanced or more so then us, don't necessarily mean the Neanderthal, there were many civilizations that have come and gone over who knows how many years. Another thing that comes to mind is that most of society thinks there is no life elsewhere and that in these vast Universes we are alone which is self centered thinking.

I did read your thread, thanks for linking it.