Abortion is morally WRONG

reply to post by technical difficulties


Nobody in their right mind condones the murder of abortion doctors, even if they are pro-life. And as for the fetus v. "human" thing, I'm pretty sure God or Karma, or the law or any other moral force could do double duty between those who murder the unborn and those who murder the born. Just because we split on different sides of the issue doesn't mean some greater force can't see wrong and tragedy in the whole mix of things.

Originally posted by Monts
No matter what side of the debate you are on... abortion is morally wrong; and not for the reasons you may believe.

You're trying to change the argument from moral to logical. It's not the same thing. Besides, the arguments you're using are logical fallacies. Specifically, you're using Hasty Generalizations, Questionable Cause, and Slippery Slope, to name a few. You might want to study up logical fallacies as they apply to debates.

I don't disagree with you that abortion is morally wrong within certain subcultures that have that particular taboo. But you can't say that about the public at large, because it's obviously false. Abortion is legal, so there is obviously enough general support for it to be so -- regardless of an individual's reason for doing it.

So I guess it's morally right to conceive a human being that's going to be unloved and treated like trash, and who is gonna end up tossed around like some thing someone needs to take care of?

Some people just aren't meant to be parents. And it's better to realize that before having a baby than after you ruined their life.

I would say the opposite.

I would say that because as a species we have developed to a point where we live unnaturally long lives, infant death rates are at 1% instead of 30% . And we ( thanks too weapons ) we have no natural predators. It would be irresponsible to not have abortion as a tool to stop unwanted pregnancies.


When I see you living in the bush with your partner. Using zero technology to live unnaturally. Then I will say you have convictions that can not be questioned.

Only then would abortion be abhorrent, immoral and irresponsible .

Well the only one to make the judgement if abortion is wrong is the person doing so.

You cannot enforce your beliefs upon someone else, and if they deem it right at the time they are doing it then good on them.

I personally could care less if someone aborts a child, I would rather have someone who does not want a child to abort then give it a crappy life. Even adoption, the baby comes into the world without the feelings of a mother and the whole time it is in her belly it can feel that she doesn't want it.

I do not think it should be used as birth control mind you, just because it cause some complications if done to many times.

I also think people should mind their own business. I would care if they were abusing the child but whether they want to keep the baby or not should not be an issue to anyone but the person who is making the choice.

Morals? Pffft, this world has no morals. Why is it any different killing a child then an animal? We abuse animals daily for our own benefit, which is morally wrong. We focus on the wrong issues.

Why make it your business to care what other people do in their personal lives?

Pred...

Darn it i was hoping to avoid this issue but to me personally i hold some very definite beliefs so here goes and apologies to those that i may upset.
Abortion today is i feel used as a form of contraception and in this respect is morally wrong, i say this because when two consenting adults have unprotected sex and are of an I.Q. that understands their actions must also understand that if you play with fire your gonna get burnt in other words should a pregnancy occur BOTH adults are responsible for the life now in progress to birth, to say that a womans right to do with her body is her own denies her absolute responsibility to the life within her and ignores the fact that this life now growing is NOT hers to destroy, it is a separate genetic individual that relies on its mothers responsibility and fathers of course to see that it is cared for up to and after birth ( after which other options are available such as adoption ) so using this as a form of contraception is in my opinion a spineless and irresponsible action that in effect murders a separate human being NOT IN potential but WITH potential.
Nows to the rape question, for me this MUST rely on the mothers capacity to make an informed choice not from pro choice or pro life but an independent counselor that can inform the now mother and those closest to her of all choices that can be made in an educated and independent manner leaving the choice entirely to the mother with further support after either abortion of the baby is done or gestation and birth completed.
For a mother who's life is in jeopardy then i really believe it is her own choice taking into consideration many many factors one for example being should she go through with the gestation period and her life is at risk what will she leave behind ? other siblings that are still very much dependent on her still living needing her nurture as well as a spouse ( i have been in this situation myself with my wife we have a 10 yr ... 8 yr and 6 yr old and as much as it hurt us both i managed to convince her that her 3 boys needed her more alive and her main responsibility was to the wee lads that we have now ).
My own belief is that we need to get to the motive of an abortion firstly and at one extreme the "i cant cope at this moment in time because yada yada yada lifestyle etc etc" should be given an informed choice and shown a couple of films of what happens during the abortion procedure in the same way we are shown or explained explicitly what happens during an operation for any other part of the body, then let her make her own decision.
For the nay sayers of both pro choicer's and pro lifers may i add that i am a nurse of 18yrs standing and have witnessed abortions as part of my training which now leads me to a more pro life stance but i also understand that life is never that simple and that choices must be made that are fully aware of the whys and wherefores and that so far as this subject is concerned we walk a moral maze so complicated that it presents difficult choices for the mother and her child and the father of her child as well as other family members around her, it is a maze that can produce convoluted arguments that can abuse the child's right to life and give over to the far extreme of the pro choice argument as well as the pro life, in my humble opinion the mother's choice is paramount yet she must understand her decision fully and be given a fully informed choice of her actions, should an active partner also be involved his choice should also be considered and any woman unable to take this into consideration should really begin to look into her lifestyle choices so far as engaging in unprotected sex is concerned but this same argument also falls into the male sexual partners being at the very very least fiscally responsible also.
This is a very emotive subject who's arguments should really be based on many factors taking on responsibility for ones actions ( mother and father ) as well as responsibility to the now dependent child in the womb as well as those that are around the mother and father, these choices are a family matter also because with every child comes an immense amount of responsibility that a mother and father now need to take on board, a child affects all members of a family from grandparents of both sides to siblings even others also.
I understand that there are occasions when a woman is totally on her own, made a mistake and now bears the brunt of that mistake on her own, even so as a mature woman you know what you are doing should you be promiscuous in your sexuality and if that is your choice so be it but, there are forms of contraception out there that can be used to prevent pregnancy and before engaging in any sexual activity both the male and female should be fully aware that to avoid an "accident" happening it is both your responsibilities to avoid it through the male/female pill ( avoiding sex whilst taking antibiotics ) and the sheath or cap, in reality there is no real excuse for an accidental conception other than tardiness.

Again apologies to those i offend but this is just a personal opinion,

yours aye,

Weaverre.

Originally posted by Monts
no woman is going into a clinic and getting an abortion because "it's my body so it's my choice".

...its impossible for anyone to know the mindset of all the females in their own town... so, do i really need to point out how silly it is for someone to presume they know the mindset of every female on the planet?...

reply to post by Monts


Abortion is NOT morally wrong when the outcome negates the chance of another parasite on society and another messed up child who doesn't have a father to look up to or a mother with ethics to teach them the morals you speak of.

Your point of view is rather naive I think, especially to say:
"The motivation behind all abortions...."snip"....is simple: Women choose abortion because they don't want the responsibility that comes with carrying and having a child "

ALL abortions? !!!

What about those women who ARE responsible for not bringing a new child into this world and creating more trouble and burden in a world with plenty already? By your thinking, they are morally wrong with the only exceptions being those stated in your OP, where in fact, they are morally RIGHT imo.

Think outside the box, and consider that there are 6.5 billion people on this ball of dirt each with different lives and different paths to decide on.

I could go on for ages here but if you want to be smart, you do the thinking and accept that not all women fit the steroetypical image you obviously have.

Morality is for fragile minds.

Originally posted by Wrecked
reply to post by Kashmir

 

Though I could go either way, dependent on the situation, one thing that confuses me? In the state of Nevada, if a unborn child is killed in the mothers womb and the mother is killed as well, because of a car accident, the culprit is put on trial and charged with not one but two counts of murder. How is it a mother can abort a pregnancy and not be charged as well? Whats with the double standard? Killing a child is killing a child is it not?
I know I sound contradictory because of my first statement but thats one area I'm still on the fence with.

And that is a question for the ages,

We have birth control, people do know how they get pregnant, responsibility would solve the problem.

I find it ironic that a healthy fetus can be aborted for i.e., a hare lip or club foot, yet someone in the last days of their lives suffering from motor neurone disease or cancer, in appalling pain, death a certaintity, has to suffer.

Babies survive at 24 weeks, yet others are aborted. There are many decent people out there who would love to adopt a baby, why not go full term and give the baby up for adoption.

reply to post by nerbot

Abortion is NOT morally wrong when the outcome negates the chance of another parasite on society and another messed up child who doesn't have a father to look up to or a mother with ethics to teach them the morals you speak of.

You have no way of knowing that they will become a parasite on society, and we have no way of knowing what kind a parent the mother will become, and that holds true for the mothers that want their child.

MY husband NEVER wanted any children, when I accidentally got pregnant with our first, he was uncomfortable with the idea through my whole pregnancy,

He took one look at his son and fell in love, what a wonderful father he became, for someone that wanted me to get an abortion.

I can only go by my own personal experiences, and I have to many lol

Originally posted by sheepslayer247
Morality is relative to each individual person. The criteria used to form your morals may not be the same as another person's.

Although I agree with your premise, I don't think morality is a way to convey the idea that abortion is wrong. Just my thoughts anyway.

Morality can't be put into the realm of subjectivity.

If anyone claims that what they are doing is moral simply because they think it is and that's all that matters... then you could say that murder and rape is moral because you think it is and morality is relative to what you think.

Subjectivism is a terrible philosophy to subscribe to for ethical questions

Who has the power, makes the rules. Who has the woman parts, has the power.

Where does morality step in when talking about gender wars? Almost no one gives a crap about what's right, so long as they get what they want in the end.

Originally posted by Wrecked
I agree with sheepslayer, but one argument I never see debated, if it takes two to tango, shouldn't both parties have a say? I mean without the males seed, the child in question would no longer be?

Hi Wrecked...

I wrote a thread on that exact argument; the argument of whether or not the male should have a say. Check it out... there was a pretty good discussion that resulted:

www.abovetopsecret.com...

Abortion is morally WRONG

Agreed...nothing to really add.

Only way people attempt to argue this is by distorting "morals" to include voluntarily ending an innocent life.

Originally posted by Kashmir
reply to post by Monts

 

i think people just need to have more respect and appreciation for life, no matter how small, especially a life that was created by you. all life is special and this may be the only life we have so why purposly take that away from anyone/thing? the problem i have with using "morals" as determination for what's right or wrong in this matter is that it is not a black and white issue and we are all "immoral" so who are we to cast stones at another for their decision?

You are right in the sense that a lot of the time there are no black and white issues... but the fact that we are all immoral in a sense shouldn't be an excuse to exclude it from determination. Morality is usually seen as something that is objective; something that exists that is a universal- if we are able to find morality, expand it, and put it to use, we will all collectively, in theory, become less "immoral".

It's not about casting stones- it's about eliminating the need to cast them in the first place.

Originally posted by Wrecked
reply to post by Kashmir

 

Though I could go either way, dependent on the situation, one thing that confuses me? In the state of Nevada, if a unborn child is killed in the mothers womb and the mother is killed as well, because of a car accident, the culprit is put on trial and charged with not one but two counts of murder. How is it a mother can abort a pregnancy and not be charged as well? Whats with the double standard? Killing a child is killing a child is it not?
I know I sound contradictory because of my first statement but thats one area I'm still on the fence with.

I've never heard about that before... it reminds me of one of the other absurdities surrounding abortion.

The fetus has to be killed before it is "born" because as soon as it is "born", it becomes a human being with rights. So the difference between having human rights rests in whether or not you are "born" or not- when abortion happens, that difference is only moments in length.

Originally posted by xiphias
Abortion is morally wrong, but forcing your morality on others is akin to terror or fascism.

But morality is forced on people all the time!

For instance... any time someone commits a crime... they are told what they are doing is morally wrong and usually, if there is proof, they are punished for it.

Originally posted by Xiamara
I don't think its morally wrong at all if its for the right reasons. Lets say a young girl is being sexually assaulted and abused by her father and gets pregnant.. I think its morally not right to tell that child no sorry you have to keep your child its morally wrong to abort, if I was in her position I would internalize it as it's my fault my father raped me. I think women who get pregnant with their rapists child are entitled to be given abortions should they choose. Its not their fault a man raped her.

I personally wouldn't ever get an abortion however, Its my body, my choice. If your okay with it then that's on you, I can't say squat about it.

I totally agree with your statement Xiamara....

In fact, as described in the OP, I am somewhat on the fence for being a pro-choicer....

I agree with the whole concept that "it's my body, my choice", but I don't think anyone in their morally right mind would ever actually choose to have one.... unless conditions similar to the ones you mentioned existed.