WikiLeaks Iraq files reveal torture [VIDEO] FRAGO 242

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posted on Oct, 22 2010 @ 04:36 PM
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But I don't think you mean they have an obligation to physically stop it. It's to report it.

- Donald Rumsfeld



These words now have a new meaning. As a citizen of the United States, I wonder after watching the video if it is truly us, the Americans, who are the real terrorists.

Even those in America who are homeless are more sheltered than they realize.




posted on Oct, 22 2010 @ 04:43 PM
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Non-Combat Event
Type: Demonstration
Title: CIV STAMPEDE RPTD BY IPS IN BAGHDAD (ZONE 18): 7IA... MND-BAGHDAD
Attack on:NEUTRAL
No US/Coalition Forces killed.
Iraqi Forces killed 7
Civilians wounded 114
Civilians killed 436


no sleep this nit for me i think... gonna read / check as much as possible.. shocking



posted on Oct, 22 2010 @ 04:46 PM
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IF there is a hell Donald Rumsfeld is going to get some exceptional treatment there, and deservedly so.
What was happening was just more Sunni on Shia violence and old grudges being settled in the Iraqi prisons.
The US had a responsibility to protect those in custody as we are the occupying power and we did nothing.
Shameful and disgusting, Small wonder the Arab world thinks we're the great Satan - to them WE ARE.

What truly shocks me is that any senior US military officer would condone such treatment. They are a disgrace to their uniform.



posted on Oct, 22 2010 @ 04:48 PM
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Can I just confirm whether this data is seperate and distinct from the "insurance file"?

Considering the damage this released data can do, it's staggering to think what might still be left in the mystery file...



posted on Oct, 22 2010 @ 04:49 PM
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I took some notes and someone suggested you guys on this thread might want them.

These are rough notes from broadcast. (These came from the from Al Jazeera)

--------------------------------------------------------


Reality of Iraq war was not as portrayed


285,000 recorded causuality109k deaths66k civilians


Total number of Iraqi deaths 107kto be raised to 122k after leak

Some deaths categorized as enemy, should have been

cat as civilian


Recorded only where US forces operating


Extreme force, IE destroying houses 3,900 killed by air strikes, 3700 classified as

enemies.


391k documents all in English


torture instruments and injuries


US forces opened and killed doctor taking pregnant woman to hospital


Stated Torture Chambers were reason to invade - End Saddam's regime stated as reason


Torture chambers WERE left in being carried out by Iraqis


Often Coalition forces were present and did nothing ordered by US govt to leave them alone


1003 occasions US troops reported torture to superiors. Electricity used on feet and genitals,

sodomized with water bottle


Detainee jabbed with screwdriver, electrocuted and sodomized with hose


Iraqi police beat detainee to death


Frago242 (take no further action)Frago orders signed by General Sanchez


Frago 242 and 249 were KNOWN ABOUT at the highest


levels of US GOVT.US DEFENSE SEC DONALD RUMSFELD said don't stop it,


report it. US troops were informing superiors for years but had no power to stop it.


Rape of 15 year old by a major/ One official was investigating - Someone came to his house - told him "abandon this case or anything could happen to you"


US claimed to investigate - inspected on 7 occasions,

and found NOTHING according to spokesman just overcrowded, properly taken care of, no evidence

of torture


but reporters were NOT told that it's troops were INDEED finding torture. Soldiers reported 41

incidents in same period. Multiple claims of detainiees beaten with chains, one electrocuted.


The coalition knew and the US chose to turn it's back.



Assange says docs have torture of over 1k people


BLACKWATER14 cases of Blackwater employees opening fire on civilianswounded 7/killing 10


"It was indescriminate"


US patrol stumbled upon carnage by Blackwater -infant on fire, vehicle burned to ground


Iraqi govt had no control over Blackwater"We hated them, they were a law until themselves. Their primary function was to protect US OFFICIALS at all costs. Other people around them were considered threats and targets"


1st death May 14, 2005US patrol almost hit by Blackwater.Father, mother, daughter. Father killed, others wounded.


May 2006 Blackwater opened fire on an ambulance


Files paint picture of Blackwater employees out of control.


PSD - private security detail


State dept. concluded that PSD provided false statements to investigators and failed to justify actions. US govt would be deemed as lowering the morale of blackwater - they were not punished.


US state dept renewed contract. No Blackwater employee has ever been punished.


+5 more 
posted on Oct, 22 2010 @ 04:49 PM
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Originally posted by harrytuttle
IMAGINE if this was your neighborhood!!!

Here's a screen shot of the visualization of the Death Map. War is hell, and civilians really get chewed up just as much as the fighters:




Sensationlize Much?

Did you bother to read the map key?
It shows every death....

Which includes Automobile Accidents, Friendly fire {US/Allies} Enemy fire {Iranian supported insurgents} Heart atacks, Criminal activities etc. Far cry from the Millions killed claim that gets thrown around ATS


================================================================================



9488 01/01/2004 03:00 Non-Combat Event Accident FATAL VEHICLE ACCIDENT IN BAGHDAD (ZONE 1) - 2 KIA
9507 01/01/2004 09:26 Non-Combat Event Accident 1/1 ID 5-TON TRUCK ACCIDENT S. OF AR RAMADI: 1 FKI...
9543 01/01/2004 12:00 Criminal Event Murder UNIVERSITY DEAN FOUND DEAD
9549 01/01/2004 16:30 Friendly Action Other GAS STATION SET ON FIRE; 1 X EN KIA, 2 X EN WIA
63A65482-0487-4D2C-93F6-E3AD2637CDA0 01/01/2004 16:30 Criminal Event Arson TF DIMONIUS personnel guarding CIMIC house, report...
9670 02/01/2004 06:45 Friendly Action Cache Found/Cleared I/3/3 ACR OP SECURES CACHE SOUTH OF HADITHAH; 4 EK...
9590 02/01/2004 10:42 Explosive Hazard IED Explosion IED ATK ON 101 FSB CONVOY EAST OF AR RAMADI: 2X WI...
9619 02/01/2004 11:58 Explosive Hazard IED Explosion 2-325IN COMPLEX ATTK IN ZONE 47: 2X KIA, 3X WIA
9593 02/01/2004 12:21 Enemy Action Direct Fire SAF ATTACK ON OH-58 SW OF FALLUJAH;1 X CF KIA, 1 X...
9633 02/01/2004 16:25 Enemy Action Indirect Fire MTR ATTACK ON 2/3IN VIC BALAD: 1X US KIA, 5 US WIA
9684 03/01/2004 00:48 Friendly Action Raid 1-8IN CONDUCTED A RAID VIC SOUTH OF BALAD, 11X IZ ...
9688 03/01/2004 03:33 Friendly Action Other ATTEMPTED TCP RUN IN ZONE 15: 1X IZ KIA
9685 03/01/2004 06:00 Friendly Action Raid 1-508IN CONDUCTED A RAID VIC MASTUL, 1X IZ KIA, 5X...
9696 03/01/2004 12:30 Non-Combat Event Demonstration DEMONSTRATION IN AS SAMAWAH NL BG AO: 1X IZ KIA, 5...
9746 03/01/2004 16:45 Non-Combat Event Accident TRAFFIC ACCIDENT KBR CONVOY W/LOCAL IZ
33C4A4D5-88E5-456A-B6A0-D467327C344E 04/01/2004 09:00 Non-Combat Event Accident TF Samus patrol reported a car accident between 1 ...
9808 04/01/2004 23:22 Enemy Action Direct Fire SAF ATTACK ON 3BCT PATROL VIC TAL AFAR - RETURN FI...
9832 05/01/2004 13:30 Enemy Action Direct Fire SAF ATTK ON TF RIE N. OF FALLUJAH: 2X TF RIE KIA, ...
9851 05/01/2004 14:18 Enemy Action Direct Fire SAF ATTACK ON IPS VIC MOSUL;1 X IPS KIA, 1 ENEMY W...
9863 05/01/2004 18:15 Enemy Action Direct Fire RPG AND SAF ATTACK ON 2 X CIV VEHICLES VIC MAHMUDI...
9869 05/01/2004 19:18 Friendly Action Attack PATROL ENGAGES 10 X EN; 2 EN KIA
9879 05/01/2004 23:08 Explosive Hazard IED Found/Cleared 5X INDIVIDUALS ENGAGED FOR EMPLACING AN IED VIC HA...
9952 06/01/2004 20:42 Friendly Action Attack ENEMY ENGAGED WHILE PLACING IED VIC AL FALLUJAH;1 ...
9974 07/01/2004 07:00 Enemy Action Direct Fire SAF ATTK ON A/1-8IN VIC SAMARRA: 11X DETAINED, NO ...
9989 07/01/2004 14:40 Non-Combat Event Accident SHOOTING ACCIDENT AT BRAEMER RANGE VIC BASRAH;1 X ...
9994 07/01/2004 16:40 Enemy Action Direct Fire SHOOTING IN BAGHDAD (ZONE 38W):2 X ICDC WIA;1 X EN...
10006 07/01/2004 18:45 Enemy Action Indirect Fire MORTAR ATTACK LOG BASE SEITZ; 30 WIA AND 1 KIA 071...
9992 07/01/2004 18:55 Non-Combat Event Accident NTV ACCIDENT IN BAGHDAD (ZONE 36S); 1 X NEUT KIA
B3985302-653D-43D6-B823-CE57A0468556 08/01/2004 07:15 Other Other A C/S found a body of an unknown male at the side ...
03A06B59-07B9-4248-8DDD-F5519197E275 08/01/2004 14:00 Criminal Event Murder C/S visiting the hospital in AZ ZUBAYR spoke with ...
10045 08/01/2004 14:22 Non-Combat Event Accident UH-60A CRASH S. OF FALLUJAH: 9X US KIA
10068 08/01/2004 16:01 Enemy Action Direct Fire SAF ATTK ON KBR CONVOY W OF BALAD: 1X TCN KIA, 2X ...
10067 08/01/2004 16:40 Enemy Action Direct Fire RPG ATTACK ON B/1-8IN PATROL: 5X VEH, 2X IZ KIA, 1...
10076 08/01/2004 18:45 Enemy Action Direct Fire SAF ATTACK ON ICDC SOLDIER - 1 X KIA
10124 09/01/2004 14:00 Explosive Hazard IED Explosion IED DETONATED IN BAQUBAH: 4X IZ KILLED, 36X IZ INJ...
10164 09/01/2004 20:25 Suspicious Incident Other 2-503 PATROL RESPONDS TO DOMESTIC VIOLENCE VIC KIR...
10162 09/01/2004 20:51 Enemy Action Attack INDIRECT ATTACK ON KIRKUK AB; 1 X EN KIA, 3 X EN W...
10186 10/01/2004 09:39 Friendly Action Attack INTERPRETOR FOUND SHOT IN THE HEAD IN ZONE 51: 1X ...
10177 10/01/2004 10:45 Enemy Action Direct Fire VIOLENT DEMONSTRATION AND GRENADE ATTACK IN AMARAH...
10240 10/01/2004 21:20 Criminal Event Theft C/1-8IN ENGAGES 40X IZ STEALING FUEL VIC SAMARRA: ...
10263 11/01/2004 07:40 Enemy Action Direct Fire 3X FEMALE IZP SHOT IN AD DIWANIYAH: 1X KIA, 2X WIA
10233 11/01/2004 10:00 Enemy Action Direct Fire ATTACK ON IRAQI POLICE VIC ASH SUYUKH: 1X IZP KIA
10259 11/01/2004 12:00 Non-Combat Event Accident 16CSG VEH ACCIDENT VIC AS SAMAWAH: 1X IZ KIA
10298 12/01/2004 10:07 Explosive Hazard IED Explosion IED STRIKE ON D/51 SIG CONVOY (ZONE 9); 2 X WIA; 1...
10324 12/01/2004 11:54 Enemy Action Direct Fire SAF & RPG ATTK ON 1-16IN N OF AR RAMADI: 5X DETAIN...
10337 12/01/2004 16:00 Enemy Action Direct Fire ATTK ON IZP VIC MOSUL: 1X IZP KIA, 1X IZP WIA
10375 13/01/2004 07:30 Friendly Action Other DEAD IZ MALE FOUND IN VEHICLE VIC BAGHDAD
10398 13/01/2004 08:35 Criminal Event Murder DEAD IZ FOUND ON MSR TAMPA S OF BALAD
10412 13/01/2004 16:45 Enemy Action Direct Fire SA ATTACK ON C/1-8IN PATROL: 4X IZ KIA, 1X IZ WIA,...
10416 13/01/2004 19:45 Enemy Action Direct Fire SAF ATTACK ON 2-325 (ZONE 26);1 X EN KIA
10433 14/01/2004 06:15 Friendly Action Other FEMALE SOLDIER KILLED AT MOSUL AIRFIELD
10443 14/01/2004 08:30 Explosive Hazard IED Explosion VBIED ATTACK IN BAQUBAH;2 X NEUT KIA,11 X IZ SEC W...
10458 14/01/2004 09:00 Enemy Action Direct Fire DIRVE BY SHOOTING AT IZP TCP VIC MOSUL: 1X IZP KIA
10447 14/01/2004 10:34 Enemy Action Direct Fire SAF ATTK ON US-ESCORTED KBR CONVOY VIC MUNSHA: 2X ...
10446 14/01/2004 11:48 Enemy Action Direct Fire 282 QM ATTACKED BY SMALL ARMS VIC SAMARRA: 2X US W...
10463 14/01/2004 16:00 Enemy Action Direct Fire 1X IZP SHOT AND KILLED WHILE WALKING IN NORTH MOSU...
10466 14/01/2004 19:47 Friendly Action Attack TANK PATROL ENGAGES 4X DISMOUNTED IZ VIC BAQABAH: ...
10467 14/01/2004 19:55 Enemy Action Direct Fire SAF ATTK ON BFV SECTION VIC JALULA: 1 X IZ KIA
10504 15/01/2004 09:40 Criminal Event Murder IZ CIVILIAN KILLED WEST OF AR RAMADI; 1 NEUTRAL KI...
10543 15/01/2004 18:00 Explosive Hazard Mine Strike CIVILIAN BUS HITS A MINE VIC TIKRIT; 3 X NEUT KIA,...
10550 15/01/2004 18:45 Enemy Action Indirect Fire MORTAR/SAF ATTACK ON 1-325I FOB IN BAGHDAD (ZONE 2...
10553 15/01/2004 18:57 Enemy Action Direct Fire RPG ATTACK ON QRF VIC HUSAYBAH;2 X EN KIA
10592 16/01/2004 03:45 Enemy Action Indirect Fire ROCKET ATTK IVO AL HILLAH: 2X IZ WIA (ABDATE MND-C...
10585 16/01/2004 08:30 Friendly Action Other TRAIN COLLISION SOUTH OF AN NASARIYAH: 3X NEUTRAL ...
10586 16/01/2004 10:40 Non-Combat Event Accident CAR ACCIDENT WITH 1BG'S VEHICLE IN AL HILLAH: 1X I...
10628 16/01/2004 18:00 Non-Combat Event Accident DEATH OF A SOLDIER
10626 16/01/2004 18:20 Non-Combat Event Accident VEHICLE ACCIDENT IN BAGHDAD (ZONE 37N);1X NEUT KIA...
10673 17/01/2004 10:20 Friendly Action Patrol IZ CAUGHT SELLING BLACK MARKET FUEL NW OF AR RAMAD...
CDBD2ED8-40A6-4830-AD84-5083FEA3E5D6 17/01/2004 11:47 Explosive Hazard IED Explosion *IED ATTK ON 2-20FA IVO TAJI: 3 DET, 2 IP KIA, 3 C...
10699 17/01/2004 12:10 Criminal Event Murder SAF ATTACK ON AL JAZEERA POLICE CHIEF AND 3 BODY G...
10697 17/01/2004 14:15 Enemy Action Direct Fire DRIVE BY SHOOTING AT MOSUL HOSPITAL; 1 X NEUT KIA,...
10712 17/01/2004 21:05 Explosive Hazard IED Explosion IED ATTACK ON PUK VEHICLE VIC JALULA; 1 X NEUT KIA...
10711 17/01/2004 21:55 Non-Combat Event Accident IED DETONATES PREMATURELY;2 X EN KIA, 1 X EN WIA
10734 18/01/2004 08:05 Explosive Hazard IED Explosion VBIED ATTACK AT CPA ( 1-35A) CP1 ZONE 1:20 X NEUT ...
10765 18/01/2004 12:09 Friendly Action TCP 20 ARMED BDE FIRES ON VEH AT TCP N OF BASRAH
10779 18/01/2004 16:56 Enemy Action Direct Fire SAF ATTACK ON ICDC CP VIC BALAD;1 X ICDC KIA, 3 X ...
10784 18/01/2004 21:50 Enemy Action Direct Fire SAF ATTACK ON SCOUT PATROL AT ILLEGAL TCP VIC BAYJ...
10815 19/01/2004 07:30 Enemy Action Direct Fire 2BCT RPTS IZ POLICEMAN SHOT AND KILLED IN MOSUL
10877 19/01/2004 20:00 Enemy Action Direct Fire DRIVE-BY SHOOTING OF IZ POLICE STATION EAST OF AR ...
10922 20/01/2004 15:50 Enemy Action Attack SA ATTACK ON CONVOY VIC BALAD:1X IZ KIA
10929 20/01/2004 20:32 Enemy Action Direct Fire SMALL ARMS ATTK IN BAGHDAD: ZONE 35 2 X IZ KIA
10974 21/01/2004 08:00 Explosive Hazard IED Explosion 3BCT RPTS CIVILIANS AMBUSHED VIC AL FALLUJAH: 3X I...
10983 21/01/2004 13:35 Non-Combat Event Accident 20ARMDBDE RPTS ACCIDENTAL DEATH OF A SOLDIER VIC A...
10984 21/01/2004 18:33 Enemy Action Indirect Fire MTR AND ROCKET ATTACK ON FOB WARHORSE (BAQUBAH); 2...
10993 21/01/2004 19:20 Explosive Hazard IED Explosion IED ATTACK ON 1-505PIR ELEMENT VIC AL FALLUJAH: 2 ...
11053 21/01/2004 22:15 Enemy Action Direct Fire SAF ATK ON ISKANDARIYAH POLICE STATION; 1 EKIA
11078 22/01/2004 18:10 Explosive Hazard IED Explosion EXPLOSION IN COMMUNIST PARTY HQ BAGHDAD (ZONE 9);2...
11089 22/01/2004 21:00 Friendly Action TCP VEHICLE ATTEMPTS TO RUN A TCP;1 X EN KIA
11104 23/01/2004 06:00 Non-Combat Event Accident IZ VEHICLE STRIKES AN M2 AT A B/1-12IN TCP IVO SAM...
11121 23/01/2004 10:00 Enemy Action Direct Fire 2BCT RPTS SAF BETWEEN IPS AND ICDC VIC MUQDADIYAH:...
11129 23/01/2004 20:20 Non-Combat Event Equipment Failure OH-58D CRASH NORTH OF Q-WEST: 2X KIA
11152 23/01/2004 23:10 Criminal Event Murder DEAD BODY FOUND IN BASRAH: 1 NEUTRAL KIA
11155 24/01/2004 09:10 Explosive Hazard IED Explosion IED ATK NORTH OF FALLUJAH: 2 COALITION KIA, 1 PLS ...
11176 24/01/2004 09:45 Explosive Hazard IED Explosion 2BCT RPTS IED EXPLODED: ZONE 31; 2X IZKIA, 4XIZ WI...
11180 24/01/2004 10:20 Explosive Hazard IED Explosion VBIED ATK IVO SAMARRA CITY COUNCIL BUILDING IN SAM...
11189 24/01/2004 16:14 Explosive Hazard IED Explosion VBIED EXPLOSION N. OF KHALIDIYAH BRIDGE; 3 CF KIA,...
11213 24/01/2004 20:55 Enemy Action Direct Fire GRENADE ATTACK ON DISMOUNTED PATROL IN SOUTHEASTER...
11201 24/01/2004 22:15 Enemy Action Direct Fire 1BCT RPTS RPG ATTK ON PATROL VIC BAYJI: 1 US KIA
11251 25/01/2004 00:15 Criminal Event Other 3BCT RPTS EXPLOSION IN AD DIWANIYAH: 1X IZ DEAD
11239 25/01/2004 01:50 Friendly Action TCP VEHICLE CHARGES 4-27FA TCP IN ZONE 8S: 1 IZ KIA

edit on 22-10-2010 by SLAYER69 because: (no reason given)



posted on Oct, 22 2010 @ 04:51 PM
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Going to have a hard time having a rational discussion with anyone that thinks we should still be in Iraq and Afghanistan. People need to see this information, all of it, then digest it for a while and try to justify what we (U.S) are doing over there. Saddens me, truly messed up



posted on Oct, 22 2010 @ 04:54 PM
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I think the from what I saw Donald Rumsfeld needs to do some answering.

The rape and the sodomy with the bottle I'd heard about was mentioned. MIght not even be the same case - isn't that sad?

It seems to me like the US troops were generally trying to do the right thing and report and no one was listening.
To me - from that broadcast - US Administration is a bunch of liars and sadistic freaks.

It's sad really - it seems clear that they all knew that the US public didn't like torture and wouldn't stand for it - would even go to war to stop it - so they let it go on and hid it.



posted on Oct, 22 2010 @ 04:57 PM
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Originally posted by hadriana
I think the from what I saw Donald Rumsfeld needs to do some answering.


Yes I do as well... I want to know WHY we were told not to do anything but to merely report it...


Ridiculous!



posted on Oct, 22 2010 @ 04:59 PM
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BBC coverage here:

www.bbc.co.uk...



posted on Oct, 22 2010 @ 05:03 PM
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Wolf Blitzer is now reporting the WikiLeaks secret documents right as I type this. I'm very interested to see how CNN reports this.



posted on Oct, 22 2010 @ 05:04 PM
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Link to the actual leak. Keeps timing out for me though.

warlogs....__._/


+28 more 
posted on Oct, 22 2010 @ 05:07 PM
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Originally posted by SLAYER69

Sensationlize Much?????


Cherry pick much?
Were all the additional ten of thousands of unreported civilian deaths banal to you as well?

I'm not going to discuss this much with anyone who has the audacity to defend the acts as described in this initial report mostly because I will say something that is both warranted and grounds for banning ... but I'm glad you and those who starred you feel better that a few of those deaths were car accidents. Did you even watch the video in the OP?

And well done on the "millions of deaths" fallacious premise ... I beg you to address the facts as leaked and reported rather than straw-man generalities.



posted on Oct, 22 2010 @ 05:12 PM
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Originally posted by EvillerBob
Can I just confirm whether this data is seperate and distinct from the "insurance file"?

Considering the damage this released data can do, it's staggering to think what might still be left in the mystery file...


Unknown. No one knows what is in the insurance file at this point except the WL people that put it together.

My guess is that the insurance file contains different info. Potentially more damaging. Maybe not to the US as a whole, but to one or more very senior people. It could also contain info totally unrelated to either Iraq or Afghanistan but be of a nature that the US government does NOT want to come out.



posted on Oct, 22 2010 @ 05:17 PM
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Dont be hoodwinked assange already leaked it for money.
TYPICAL! They release it early to the mass left media so they can put their spin on it before anyone can read it for themselves. Seems like what the catholic priest would do with the bible only they could read it to you! I am for freedom of information but don't let the media spin the actual documents LET US READ THEM OURSELVES FIRST MR. ASSANGE He couldn't do that because he wants money to make, this seems greedy and I think he has more of an agenda then just letting out secret information, mark my words blood will be on his own hands. Forget about plucking everyone elses splinter out of their eye when you need to pick a splinter out of your eye first! Get real. I would like these documents to go through MYSELF and then maybe the media can spin it.



posted on Oct, 22 2010 @ 05:18 PM
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reply to post by schrodingers dog
 


Cherry pick?
I simply replied to his post.


edit on 22-10-2010 by SLAYER69 because: (no reason given)



posted on Oct, 22 2010 @ 05:20 PM
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reply to post by thecinic
 


Then just avoid the news channels and read the files for yourself. Seems to be a pretty easy concept. They can't spin it if you don't read it at least thats my thinking on it.



posted on Oct, 22 2010 @ 05:25 PM
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Here is some food for thought.

Like everybody wanted, the US is now leaving Iraq. US troop levels are now around 50,000. The Iraqi police and military have the country to themselves now. I wonder how they plan on keeping everyone in line?
edit on 22-10-2010 by Styki because: (no reason given)



posted on Oct, 22 2010 @ 05:28 PM
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Originally posted by jaynkeel
reply to post by thecinic
 


Then just avoid the news channels and read the files for yourself. Seems to be a pretty easy concept. They can't spin it if you don't read it at least thats my thinking on it.


They should of gave it to the people right here supporting it first.



posted on Oct, 22 2010 @ 05:31 PM
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Originally posted by SLAYER69
reply to post by schrodingers dog
 


Cherry pic?
I simply replied to his post.





For the record, I think some starred Slayer's post simply due to the added clarification of the data presented on that site which mapped the deaths, as to what those were.

I saw merit in his post from that perspective myself, as I always welcome clarification of data.

I don't however feel that this data point is in any way a defense of the acts as described in these leaks.

I haven't been in many discussions with either of you as it relates to the rather raw feelings associated with this area of discussion.

I would hope we can all agree that the deaths which occurred, while a serious issue of concern in this development, is not the most shocking of revelations.

To me it is even more heinous because as this comes out, we find that we endorsed this behavior as it was carried out by Iraqis themselves and not so much the Americans... (though I'm sure this happened to some degree)

It is this which is so calculated as to be a fail safe of sorts, an argument, no matter how hollow, that it was not carried out by us... but Iraqis...

Politically, all of those tortured were used intentionally, not out of some sort of Fog of War... oh yes, the people who were involved were surrounded by such a Fog, but this information shows there were at least "Fog machines" in use if you catch my drift.

How can the Iraqis have any respect for those of their own who helped secure the overthrow of the insurgents, how could we in the name of spreading democracy allow a new infant democracy to have such human rights injustices as their so called "heroic act of revolution"?



Yes, I'm sickened.
edit on 22-10-2010 by HunkaHunka because: (no reason given)
edit on 22-10-2010 by HunkaHunka because: (no reason given)





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