WikiLeaks Iraq files reveal torture [VIDEO] FRAGO 242

reply to post by HunkaHunka
From what I have seen reported there were 300 events of torture where we did not intervene. That does not seem like that much to me. Was it torture or was it rape for some sickos enjoyment. My point is don't watch the Al Jazera propaganda and come to conclusions. What were the dates of these events, correct me if I'm wrong but we have NOT been IN CHARGE over there for a long time. I just don't think our armed forces should have been stopping an operation to obtain important information. Now if we had troops stand by while innocent civilians were being raped ok you have a reason to be appalled.

reply to post by WoodEye


That's exactly what happened...

We had troops stand by while innocent victims wee being raped....

And that's not simply from al jazeera... They wee just the first to break the wikileaks emabargo on the information...


It's all there in the leaked information

And its sickening

reply to post by Soshh


As I said before, I shall not debate utilitarianism in this thread. However, to answer your question, no, I do not believe utilitarianism to be a satisfactory foundation for ethics. It leaves too many unanswered, or possibly unanswerable, questions.

But my opinion of utilitarianism is hardly the issue. What is at stake here is the (rhetorical) question I asked in my first post in this thread. What I mean is this:

In the eighteenth century, the idea was put forward by Locke, Voltaire, and others, that individuals have certain natural rights, and that these rights cannot legitimately be denied by the State. Jefferson picked up that thread in the American Declaration of Independence. After that, there began a lot of quibbling over what these rights consisted of and from whence they derived. Fair enough. What disturbs me is what I perceive as a modern tendency to say: No, no, you've got it all wrong. There is no such thing as a natural right. Furthermore, the State is an end unto itself. Therefore, any action that the State may take in order to perpetuate itself is considered moral by definition. You see, there is a tautology: Ethical behavior is equivalent to anything that tends to perpetuate the State.

I object to this rationale. The inevitable result is torture, rape, murder, and other acts of barbarism being regarded as morally justifiable.

Maybe I am wrong, but I have faith that we can together produce a more satisfactory world than that.

reply to post by HunkaHunka

Care to provide a link to that report? And no not an Al Jazzera video either. The actual report?

Originally posted by Reign02
reply to post by Subjective1

 

Ohhh god not the "killing civilians" speech agan..... WHAT THE HELL DO YOU THINK THEY ARE DOING EVERYDAY? I suggest you look into these terrorists organizations like you have investigated our US forces..... But none of you have because you all think that war is wrong.... Well guess what? War is here and it will be here for a LONG LONG time...
They don't care if you are a woman or a child. They want EVERYONE that is not a Muslim DEAD.... How is it so damn hard for you people to realize that? I suggest you look up known middle eastern terrorist attacks across the globe, and look at the horrible things that they have done.... Beheadings, stonings, rape, torture, blowing up civilians, strapping bombs to kids and using them a suicide bombers, and there is a million more things these people do.
And what do the US Forces do? We provide aid and security to the people that have been too scarred to stand up to these organizations that have been instilling fear and ruling that region since forever.... So what, we kill a few innocent people... ITS WAR... over half of the innocent people killed in these 2 wars have been from the terrorists themselves not from us.... The polls and stats you read online aren't only American kills, they are kills from the terrorists too.... All of you need to realize that THEY WANT YOU DEAD JUST AS MUCH AS AMERICAN SOLDIERS!!!!!!!

Hell not even a month ago they kidnapped a Scottish woman (I think she was a Scot) and strapped a bomb to her and when we came to rescue her, they blew her up!!! I guarantee that they probably beat, raped, and tortured her the entire time she was captive as well.... And what about all the people that are NOT military that go to the region to supply aid that get attacked and killed each year? My main point is, it doesn't matter who's side you are on. If you are not Muslim they are going to do whatever it takes to kill you.... WAKE THE HELL UP!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

This post deserves a repost, what I was saying only better said.

Originally posted by WoodEye
reply to post by HunkaHunka

 

Care to provide a link to that report? And no not an Al Jazzera video either. The actual report?

You are new to this aren't you?


www....__._/search/?q=Rape

Its on there on the wikileaks site

All 400k documents.... I just gave you a link that searches on rape... Its not hard to find

Originally posted by Reign02
and when war crimes such as rape or the accidental or malicious killing of civilians is done. Once it is discovered it is immediatley investigated and if it is deemed that they did so on purpose they are put on trail and may face 25-life or even the death penalty.... I know there are quite a few war criminals that are locked up right now... But the terrorist groups do MUCH MUCH worse things to our troops and even civilians..

This too is an EXCELLENT point! Show me a report of discipline against a terrorist for being a terrorist?

Originally posted by Reign02

Hell not even a month ago they kidnapped a Scottish woman (I think she was a Scot) and strapped a bomb to her and when we came to rescue her, they blew her up!!!

A US special forces soldier is reportedly facing disciplinary action for throwing the fragmentation grenade believed to have killed her.



Read more: www.pressandjournal.co.uk...

Just sayin'

I believe way worse things are probaly happening also, like using innocent civilians for weapon testing and other such ideas.

This threads title is very deceptive WikiLeaks Iraq files reveal torture [VIDEO] FRAGO 242
there is NO TOUTURE VIDEO some re-hashed you tube video with older news we already know about! Don't you see what Assange has done HE gave us the DOG FOOD while he eats all the CAVIER.. He keeps the good information from you and keeps it for himself sounds like a gov. operation right there.

Don't be surprised if this insuance file never gets released and his WHOLE RECON5 was a big gig to get big numbers to wikileaks. It got me more interested in it. I guesse one way or the other at some point we give into the system. Just don't give them your soul folks. Don't trust EVERY word Assange feeds you, don't trust EVERY word the government gives you, and DON'T put all your faith in a bag of "secret" documents.

Why did they have to break this story on FRIDAY? Why so late in the day?

It would have been more effective if broken on a MONDAY during a new news cycle.

I don't understand that. Anyone got any insight?

reply to post by pazcat


You are just sayin' huh... Well let me just say.. I am SURE that special forces soldier enlisted and trained in hopes of going to some god forsaken land on a mission to rescue a kidnapped woman with the intent to kill her with a grenade. But thats just my point... he is on trial for this mistake. I hope you do not need specially trained forces to try and save your daughter someday because if this is how our troops are going to be rewarded for putting themselves in harms way I'm no sure to many are going to want to sign up.

reply to post by HunkaHunka


No I know where the report was dumped. I wanted a link to the ACTUAL report of a senseless rape occurring while Americans stood by and did nothing... ohh I mean stood by and reported the event to superiors as ordered. As documented by these STOLEN secret documents. How about reports of Americans beheading innocents?

reply to post by Spectral Norm


I agree with most of what you have said but morality has no place in war, only strategy. Fortunately at least as far as FID is concerned, good strategy is often in line with good morality. People are arguing about whether or not it is morally justifiable to torture people but that’s irrelevant because it’s a matter of opinion.

What people should be considering is whether or not torturing people on a huge scale is a good strategic decision. They will then realise that it is not a clever decision and that if those in charge knew how to conduct a war properly then we wouldn't be having this conversation.

In my opinion, people's emotions took over and the torture thing is largely about taking vengeance on those who they perceive as their enemy. Soldiers who have only been trained to kill become very frustrated at the thought of being surrounded by their enemy and being unable to use their weapons. This is why we see acts of wanton destruction and the death of innocents, because soldiers who are not trained for the job want to relieve stress by firing their weapons and they want to do it as soon as possible.

Well....ok, I see our soldiers as having been victims in this.

I mean - it is torture to have to stand by and watch someone being tortured and not do anything about it.

They were TRYING to report it - they did or we would not HAVE the wikileaks documents.
Bradley Manning or whoever leaked it was trying to report it probably because he KNEW no one was listening to the soldiers and doing anything about it.

I don't feel anything but rage on behalf of the American troops that were caught in this stone wall labyrinth of denial and inaction. No wonder we are seeing PTSD like we are!

Rumsfeld might as well have castrated them when he said don't intervene, just report it - but they knew reporting it was doing NOTHING.

You say morality has no place in war?

Sun Tzu talked a lot about morality's role in war.
He wrote a pretty good book on it.

reply to post by hadriana


He talked about morality's role in war or morality's role in military strategy?

Originally posted by Soshh
reply to post by hadriana

 

He talked about morality's role in war or morality's role in military strategy?

They aren't all that separate, and if you try to separate them, I think you're bound to lose both....which might be what has happened...but anyway....

The book was, THE ART OF WAR and it was about strategy. It is still taught today. Perhaps not in public schools, but in military academies.
www.chinapage.com...

Guys the truth of the matter is that we had this kind of abuse in Iraq since I was a kid living there. This wasn't a big surprise I have known about this kind of abuse since even before I was born.

These guys have no contact with the outside world and get treated like rag dolls in jail. A lot of times you get innocent prisoners in jail the only wrong they did was crossing someone who holds a position of power. A lot of times people will abuse their power in Iraq.

I am glad to see this is seeing air time because only God knows how long people would suffered in those jails. The whole time the invasion was taking place I knew there wasn't going to be any liberation for the people. The only liberation that underwent was removal of one government with more of a puppeteer. But these abuses still go on everyday of the year. There is no human rights workers.

I am not in any way condoning torture but I can understand where in some situations it would be crucial to find out some information to stop a threat to national security, foreign interests or local interests. I don't see why torture has to come into it? If its absolutely necessary to get some information out of someone why not just spike them with '___' (Or some of the other MANY drugs you can use) and then use reverse hypnotherapy or just interrogate them again. I really don't believe in violence or any form of invasion of a persons space INCLUDING the spiking of drinks. But I do think that if people are going to be committing these sinful acts of attack, the latter would definitely be the more humane option..