WikiLeaks Iraq files reveal torture [VIDEO] FRAGO 242

I also like it how the american government has the cheek to say wikileaks are putting american soldiers at risk?? hahaha.... mr amerca who put those soldiers there in the first place??? who is ultimately responsible for the safety of the american soldier in iraq?? the only people with blood on their hands is the american government!

Originally posted by Spectral Norm
Then there are those here who appear to feel that such activities are justified because anyone who was tortured or murdered was probably up to no good anyway and probably deserved it, which is a fancy way of saying that the end really does justify the means.

Can you explain why the end does not justify the means?

It is easy to say that here because the main reason for going to war quickly evaporated and we were then inevitably left with an “end” that wasn’t needed in the first place and therefore any “means” are unjustified. For the end to justify the means, the end must be a wholly desirable one and if it is then it certainly justifies the means.

reply to post by HunkaHunka


It never ceases to amaze me how US militia groups end up being portrayed as gung-ho and violent when in fact the US Army, US Navy, and US Air Force can legitimately be classified as terrorist organizations at this point given their record of torture and murder. Whereas the US militia groups would hardly kill a fly and are easily among the most peaceful military groups around the world judging by the actual death count and torture records. The SPLC founders are much more likely to rape a 15 year old side by side with the US Army officer who did it than properly report the truth about who are the terrorists and who are not, yet get some sort of leadership position in the matter amazingly. Hopefully with the internet, people will get a better grip on reality over time.

Its so funny how friends and family will so strongly urge you to pay extortion money from the government yet at the same time thing its so good that it works that way. Its exactly like the wife-beating husband where the wife just thinks its so good because of all that safety provided by the abusive husband. Don't be the stupid wife, people.

The shock in this thread needs to be balanced by the hypocrisy in this thread.
WHAT, should have been expected by a nation and its citizens that have sat on their hands collectively for decades?
Was there suppose to be a different outcome from what we've got?
We, have allowed this to happen by our silence for many administrations.
The evil in action has fed nicely on a distracted and silent apathetic US populace for a century.
The yelling and flailing at the watercooler will be entertained or spun by the controlled media until this event,
like many other events to follow, will fade into the memory as a nothing.
The sound of wasted freedom, wasted energy is the roaring of dreaming sheep.

Originally posted by schrodingers dog
I'm looking at The Guardian coverage and I can't even muster enough sadness and outrage to allow for all these crimes against humanity ... and the totality of the info isn't even fully read yet.

What a sad and vicious species we are.

All this cost?
And for what?
For nothing!

And so it goes ...

Dog,

I don't believe it IS our species. I believe it's the lizard hearted who promote and allow this. We, some of us, are twisted by their money/energy/power grid, but as a species, like you, we are horrified.

It is not the human heart that has pulled the strings on these incidents.

Originally posted by Amaterasu

Dog,

I don't believe it IS our species. I believe it's the lizard hearted who promote and allow this. We, some of us, are twisted by their money/energy/power grid, but as a species, like you, we are horrified.

It is not the human heart that has pulled the strings on these incidents.

Lizard people? Really?

The only thing worse than those in power who use their influence for personal gain are those who are delusional enough to think that human beings can't stoop that low and that it has to be an 'alien' species.

Get a grip.

reply to post by Soshh


While this is not the forum to engage in a debate of the efficacy of a utilitarian conception of ethics, suffice it to say that I take it as axiomatic that human life is valuable and that human suffering is to be regarded as negative.

reply to post by serbsta


LOL! Well. You believe as you wish. I have Terra Papers and Sumerian tablets to work with.

Originally posted by Spectral Norm
reply to post by Soshh

 

While this is not the forum to engage in a debate of the efficacy of a utilitarian conception of ethics, suffice it to say that I take it as axiomatic that human life is valuable and that human suffering is to be regarded as negative.

Well said, I would say that extends to all forms of life really.

Originally posted by HunkaHunka

Sodomy by water bottle, jabbed with screwdrivers? Struck with cables, electrocuted, sodomized with a hose, beaten to death...

That kinda sounds like my idea of a great first date!

reply to post by Spectral Norm


So you're assuming that it is always the case that the amount of people who benefit from the "end" is disproportionate to those who were harmed in the process?

reply to post by HunkaHunka
I may be wrong but have we been fighting men in uniform over there or insurgents who wear no identifying insignia? How are they identifying civilian and combatant deaths? Just saying some of these civilian deaths could have been pushing a button on an IED. War is Hell

reply to post by WoodEye


Uh, anyone with fingers can be pushing a button on an IED. Is that what you think war should be then?
Kill em all?

(But rape em with hoses first)

Originally posted by Itop1
I also like it how the american government has the cheek to say wikileaks are putting american soldiers at risk?? hahaha.... mr amerca who put those soldiers there in the first place??? who is ultimately responsible for the safety of the american soldier in iraq?? the only people with blood on their hands is the american government!

Exactly.... The people who put american lives at risk are those who signed off on FRAGO 242....

That's like blaming your accuser for he horrible acts you yourself did....


Silly CIA

Originally posted by WoodEye
reply to post by HunkaHunka

 

I may be wrong but have we been fighting men in uniform over there or insurgents who wear no identifying insignia? How are they identifying civilian and combatant deaths? Just saying some of these civilian deaths could have been pushing a button on an IED. War is Hell

And war is even worse when the administration codifies the condoning of torture as was done in this case...

Appaling!

reply to post by hadriana

Has anyone broken down how many of these so called civilian deaths are due to coalition forces? I have been clicking through the map and most seem to be due to enemy action. I presume since we started the war all the blood is on our hands?

reply to post by HunkaHunka
And what would you have them do. Start fighting against the Iraqis who were on your 'side' I'm sure that would have gone over well. I do not think torture should be condoned but its a part of war, its a part of life. How many women are raped in this world every day? How many people are being held against their will? War is Hell and not a video game.

reply to post by hadriana

And to answer you more directly... Kill them before they kill you. You don't want to die, than don't try to kill me. Work to end the violence rather than add to it. This war could have been over a long time ago. And I don't think it should come to much surprise this war dragged on because the Muslim extremist wanted to engage our military and KILL. Oh and the rape with the hose comment.... how many reports of that crap were there? Who was doing it? Why? War is Hell and life sucks sometimes.

Originally posted by WoodEye
reply to post by HunkaHunka

 

And what would you have them do. Start fighting against the Iraqis who were on your 'side' I'm sure that would have gone over well. I do not think torture should be condoned but its a part of war, its a part of life. How many women are raped in this world every day? How many people are being held against their will? War is Hell and not a video game.

Dude, you really think that fighting against the Iraqis was the only other way?

You have a very narrow mind if that is the case and I pity your future.

We were in charge.... We had the obligation to stand up for democracy as we were spreading it...

Always start with te end in mind.... And this is not what happened, but its understandable given the fact that most americans are rather stupid comparatively speaking when it comes to being educated or even having respect for education.

Originally posted by Itop1

Originally posted by CanuckCoder
reply to post by Itop1

 

Again id like to see where anyone has declared it officially an illegal war. No one of an official status in any world government has declared it as such except enemies of the USA.

If the US people are convinced this is illegal why dont they impeach their president, or demand justice?

The US people are also complicit, they believe their own leaders are wrong and will not stand up for it except in forums such as these hidden by anonymity. To me that's courageless behaviour.

The day the US people do something about their leaders wrong-doings is the day this world will become a better one. Until then, they are as much part of the problem as the leaders themselves.

Again this has not been declared illegal by any official body, its not supported by all, but also not condemned.

So you need an "official" person to tell you that the war is illegal? your incapable of using your own common sence and see for yourself that its wrong? the reason why these things happen is because of that, people cant see for themselves, unless somebody official says its illegal, then it must be ok? i disagree.... but i agree with you when you say the american people are just as much to blame for this as the government because they are like sheep and too afraid to stand up for whats right.

The fact is im no lawyer. I don't know if what was done is truly illegal. They lied about WMD's but they invaded and no communities stood against it not even the US people. People post on a forum and make decisions but their not lawyers, or people even able to judge on this.
How do you know anything about this war except what your fed? You cannot know the full truth of why because it is buried by the government and its people will not fight to find it out.

So until you find the truth about why, the real truth...don't speak against it. For all you know they were nuclear capable and were training extremist and were on a warpath, it could not be proven but a lot of times you know where evil is and evil does a lot to hide any proof they are indeed that.

Saddam was evil, he has been taken down and now its people torture each other. The US being there is the only good thing right now for those who want a decent life, if left to their own demise they wld be ruled by extremist. You can deny that all you wish but its truth. Get your head out of your butt for a change and see the black and white and stop believing in the grey's.

You want the truth, go and get it, otherwise don't pretend to know it based on observations that are mostly spoon fed to you to either mislead you or have you thinking on the wrong track.

Deny ignorance...remember?