Many will abandon faith in the end times.

reply to post by DISRAELI

I don't understand how this prophecy can be true when most of the world did not believe in this faith. There were very few followers of Jesus at the supposed time this was written. Christians try to use this to say prophecy is true, but there are more Christians than at any other time in history. There are more people converting to Christianity than in any other time. How can it be true? This is a verse Christians try to use on people who disbelieve.

reply to post by BillfromCovina

Good point. I've just checked the text, and the thread title is actually a slight misquotation. The word should be "some", not "many". And that means "some of those now Christians". So the proportion of the church of the time to the world at large doesn't affect the issue. The comment becomes true if there are "some" people who were Christians and then give it up.
Surely the comment is beginning to come true in terms of what proportion of society is professing the Christian faith?
There was a time when western society was at least nominally 100% Christian. Now a large proportion of that society are outright atheists and agnostics, and another large proportion are followers of other kinds of faith. In comparison with the previous appearance of 100%, that represents a "falling away" of society from commitment to the Christian religion.
A lot of people on ATS would probably say "Yes, the modern world is giving up on Christianity, and so they should". I wonder how many would support the theory that the modern world is not abandoning the church?

reply to post by DISRAELI
DISRAELI,

This reply is not so much to Disraeli but to those who have been following this thread, there have been a lot of interesting replies.. I want to add that there is an apparent reason for "the falling away". It is of a laxity of following the Word and a want to be saved in ones own way. We don't make the Way, He has made it and we must walk in it to be saved. Some verses, KJV.

2Ti 4:3 For the time will come when they will not endure sound doctrine; but after their own lusts shall they heap to themselves teachers, having itching ears;

Men have gotten what they have asked for, worthless parasites "living high on the hog" and not bringing salvation to any. It has caused the following instead.

2Ti 4:4 And they shall turn away their ears from the truth, and shall be turned unto fables.

The watering down of the Way has been getting further out all the time. We are now in the days spoken of in the next verse.

Am 8:11 ¶ Behold, the days come, saith the Lord GOD, that I will send a famine in the land, not a famine of bread, nor a thirst for water, but of hearing the words of the LORD:

Those days are here now!

Truthiron.

reply to post by DISRAELI


Good point. This also could include a watering down of religious teachings with overacceptance of competing philosophies.

*addendum* Looks like truthiron got to this before me

reply to post by truthiron

How could they fall away from the word when the word or belief was not even decided upon yet. Definitely not a bible and no gospel when this letter was supposedly written. Many inconsistencies about Timothy that modern scholars believe it a forgery. Forgeries and made up books were rife at the time. Eusebius mentions that it is undisputed which, to me, means it is a made up letter attributed to Paul. Eusebius was known to promote fiction.

Originally posted by BillfromCovina
How could they fall away from the word when the word or belief was not even decided upon yet. Definitely not a bible and no gospel when this letter was supposedly written.

Before the gospels were written down, the teaching was conveyed by word of mouth.
"The word" is the content of what was being taught.
That was how they became Christians in the first place. People talked to them.

reply to post by DISRAELI

Some would always fall away as has been the case throughout history. This has been constantly happening. Have we always been in end times? Some would always question their beliefs as happens with all faiths and beliefs.

reply to post by BillfromCovina

I, personally, have never specified that the current times are the end times, in the "it's all coming in our lifetime" sense that some people are using. You have to admit that what is happening in western society at the moment looks like an accelerating movement away from Christian belief. I don't draw any conclusions about how long the process would take.

reply to post by DISRAELI

I don't draw this conclusion at all. Look at all the people trying to promote Creationism and its teaching in the schools. When Obama was running for president he had to prove he believed and had a debate at Rick Warren's church. I do believe that more people have access to information that was being kept from them throughout history. Once people have this information they will naturally question the bible and blind faith. The problem is that there are still alot of people who are afraid to ask the questions. It is hard undo a lifetime of brainwashing. Once you lose your fear you will start asking questions. God would never put the answers to this world in a book. He would make them available to all just by living your life and discovering them yourself.

reply to post by BillfromCovina

I'm resident on the eastern side of the Atlantic, where the "falling away" is more obvious.
But even in the States, the dominance of the Christian faith is surely not as great as it was in the past.
That debate about Creationism- that's the attitude of people who feel they're in a backs-to-the wall struggle, a fighting retreat.
Your standpoint is evidently that the Christian faith has a stronger hold on society than it should have.
The premise of this thread is that the Christian faith's hold on society is not a strong as it used to be.
I don't quite see why your standpoint should force you to disagree with that premise.

reply to post by BillfromCovina
BillfromCovina,

Bill the falling away was a prophecy given way back yonder coming true now. Future history.

Here's a few, 2 Thes. 2:3, 1 Tim. 4:1-3, 2 Tim. 3:1-3 and 2 Tim. 4:3-4

Truthiron.

What is humanism? Specifically.

It is the belief that man can be, for all practical purposes, equivalent to the Creator Himself.

And what is man?

Man is the consciousness of the "self" and the consciousness of the 'thinker'; which is the 'fallen' consciousness.

And what is the origin of theology?

Although theology purports to originate in Revelations; ultimately, it consists of re-interpretations of the Revelations in accordance with the psychological requirements of the consciousness of the 'thinker' or the 'fallen' consciousness.

Theology consists of the belief that man, unaided by Revelation, can access Revealed Truth; in other words, that Revelation is not really necessary.

So, the issue has come down to a conflict over the meaning of the Revelation and Doctrine of "resurrection".

The Egyptian religion, which does not at all depend upon Revelation, but nothing more than the consciousness of the 'thinker', asserted the doctrine of the physical raising of a dead body from the grave. This was the whole rationale for mummification: to preserve that dead body for its eventual re-animation by the returning metaphysical 'soul'.

All of these doctrines or beliefs originate in the consciousness of the 'thinker', which is based upon the consciousness of the "self". No Revelation is required for any of these beliefs.

And what is the origin of the consciousness of the 'thinker'?

The fear of death and the desire for pleasure.

In other words, the 'thinker' really does not care about Truth, per se. What it cares about is intellectual pleasure and validation that it is fully capable of accessing and understanding Revealed Truth without Revelation.

So, along comes a theologian who says that the Doctrine of "resurrection" taught by Isaiah, Daniel, Jesus and Mohammed is no different than the pagan Egyptian doctrine of "resurrection". But this theologian claims, instead, that this is not any human thought at all, but a Revelation which has been received from God.

My objections to this are quite simple: What is the need for any such Revelation? The Egyptians already have precisely the same doctrine: that the metaphysical 'soul' separates from the body at death and will eventually return to the body thus raising that dead body from the grave (the monotheistic religionists have merely 'tweaked' the doctrine in such a way that mummification is no longer considered to be necessary since the entire re-animation process will be completely Miraculous.) For a theologian to now say that this is, instead, a Revelation is to say that the pagan Egyptian religion taught Revelation, when all it taught was doctrines concocted by men. It is also to say that man does not really need any Revelations in the first place, since the consciousness of the 'thinker' is fully capable of accessing Revealed Truth unaided by any such Revelations.

So, now, there are millions and hundreds of millions of monotheistic religionists who believe that the pagan doctrine of "resurrection" expropriated from the Egyptian religion is fully equivalent to the Revelation of the "resurrection" received from God; religionists who, of course, are quite concerned that people will no longer believe that such a doctrine is a Revelation at all; but will finally understand that the Revelation of the "resurrection" must, necessarily, be different than a doctrine which has been concocted exclusively by the unaided consciousness of the 'thinker'.

And the reason that there are millions and hundreds of millions of people who believe this doctrine is not because this doctrine is a Revealed Truth; but, rather, because believing this doctrine is quite pleasurable and conforms to the desires and fears of the consciousness of the 'thinker'.

So, on this basis, all statements by Jesus that 'the road to life is narrow and there are few who follow that road' are simply to be utterly disregarded.

Now, the number hundreds of millions must be considered as what is meant by the word "few".

Meanwhile, these hundreds of millions of people believing that this doctrine is a Revealed Truth have exterminated millions upon millions upon millions of people over the past 2000 years.

The Gnostics were exterminated for teaching a Doctrine of 'Rebirth'.

Tens of thousands of Albigensians were exterminated for teaching a Doctrine of 'Rebirth'; because the theologians who were sent to debate them on the Doctrine were regularly trounced and ridiculed by the people.

So, someone comes along and says "You are wrong about the Doctrine of "resurrection". It is based upon the Revelation of the Memory of the Creation and the revelation of the memories of previous lives. Man is not God and the doctrines of the theologians are not Revealed Truth.

And what is he accused of?

He is accused of claiming that man is precisely God; when, in fact, he is directly challenging the assertion of the theologians that their doctrines are Revelations; which is to challenge the assertion that man, for all practical purposes, is, in fact, equivalent to the Creator.

But the train has been picking up speed for thousands of years. It has attained such a momentum that it is simply no longer possible to either stop it or divert it from its appointed destiny: a train wreck which will destroy human civilization as we know it.

The Jewish, Christian and Muslim religionists categorically refuse to acknowledge that their theologies have been completely wrong for hundreds or thousands of years.

And even when the prophet Daniel writes a Prophecy, in relation to the Revelation and Doctrine of the "resurrection", which states: "These words will remain secret and Sealed until the time of the End", that Prophecy is, of course, completely disregarded or universally considered as referring to anything BUT the Revelation and Doctrine of "resurrection".

Mi cha el

Originally posted by truthiron
Here's a few, 2 Thes. 2:3,

Yes, this reference is particularly important, because it shows that the Timothy letters are not the only source of this concept.

Originally posted by BillfromCovina
reply to post by DISRAELI

 

I don't draw this conclusion at all. Look at all the people trying to promote Creationism and its teaching in the schools. When Obama was running for president he had to prove he believed and had a debate at Rick Warren's church. I do believe that more people have access to information that was being kept from them throughout history. Once people have this information they will naturally question the bible and blind faith. The problem is that there are still alot of people who are afraid to ask the questions. It is hard undo a lifetime of brainwashing. Once you lose your fear you will start asking questions. God would never put the answers to this world in a book. He would make them available to all just by living your life and discovering them yourself.

How do you know God would not insist his words and commandments be recorded? Some revelations one might come to on their own, but the whole idea that man can find all the answers without divine guidance is somewhat irresponsible. One day you might come to the conclusion that stealing is bad and hurts people's livelyhoods, you might come across the commandment "Thou shalt not covet thy neighbor's goods" through rationalization. However, through rationalization you may justify killing someone you don't like because he wasn't very nice. The word of Yahweh is very unyielding in this respect "Thou shalt not commit murder". Man is not God. If there is a God, his word would be powerful and unyielding to iniquities and the hollow justifications man makes for his behavior.

Originally posted by DISRAELI
reply to post by BillfromCovina

 

I'm resident on the eastern side of the Atlantic, where the "falling away" is more obvious.
But even in the States, the dominance of the Christian faith is surely not as great as it was in the past.
That debate about Creationism- that's the attitude of people who feel they're in a backs-to-the wall struggle, a fighting retreat.
Your standpoint is evidently that the Christian faith has a stronger hold on society than it should have.
The premise of this thread is that the Christian faith's hold on society is not a strong as it used to be.
I don't quite see why your standpoint should force you to disagree with that premise.

edit on 30-10-2010 by DISRAELI because: (no reason given)

That is not the premise of this thread. The premise of this thread is that many would fall way at the end times. I countered it by saying it could not be many and you agreed. I countered it by saying it could not fulfill prophecy and you agreed that we were not in end times. The premise of this article is not that faith is not as strong as may be the 1500's or the 1950's. Your premise is that maybe faith is not as strong in Europe. Not the premise of this post.

Originally posted by truthiron
reply to post by BillfromCovina

 

BillfromCovina,

Bill the falling away was a prophecy given way back yonder coming true now. Future history.

Here's a few, 2 Thes. 2:3, 1 Tim. 4:1-3, 2 Tim. 3:1-3 and 2 Tim. 4:3-4

Truthiron.

Truthiron if you read my earlier posts you will see why it does not fulfill prophecy or describe what is happening. In a nutshell, there are more Christians today than at any other time in history. Many people believe because they are afraid of death and hell. They use scripture to try and reinforce their beliefs. This is one of the prophecies they try and use on themselves when they come across an ex-christian.

Originally posted by kallisti36

How do you know God would not insist his words and commandments be recorded? Some revelations one might come to on their own, but the whole idea that man can find all the answers without divine guidance is somewhat irresponsible. One day you might come to the conclusion that stealing is bad and hurts people's livelyhoods, you might come across the commandment "Thou shalt not covet thy neighbor's goods" through rationalization. However, through rationalization you may justify killing someone you don't like because he wasn't very nice. The word of Yahweh is very unyielding in this respect "Thou shalt not commit murder". Man is not God. If there is a God, his word would be powerful and unyielding to iniquities and the hollow justifications man makes for his behavior.

You talk about the commandments but again the Bible contradicts you. God also ordered his people to kill in the Bible and to rape and slaughter children. You say it is very unyielding but the whole Bible contradicts everything you post. The real message of the Bible is to fight and kill. It divides the world into two. The good and the evil, and you need to fight against the evil. In fact the god of the bible continually contradicts himself and his word. Go into a mental hospital or a prison and see how many are reading the bible and have one. It just reinforces the craziness.

reply to post by BillfromCovina


Often times these supposed unreasonable genocides which Anti-religious people use as proof that God is ebil are taken out of context. Seriously go to apologistspress.com , most claims you've heard they have refuted. If you actually take the time to read the Bible back to front (an admittedly daunting task) you gain context. Meaning you gain understanding of why the god of the Bible may have ordered the conquest of other tribes, why he would destroy entire cities, and create the deluge. You can't write off an entire set of beliefs as 'crazy' because people in mental asylums may follow such beliefs. This is called the 'poisoning the well' logical fallacy tactic. It's where you attack an aspect of the character of your opponent to diminish credibility, in a formal debate it might go something like this, "Ok, now that I've presented my opinion, I'm going to yield the floor to my opponent Bob. Rumor has it that Bob is unfaithful to his wife and believes in geocentricism. They're all yours Bob". For that matter, how many 'insane' people are truly insane? Judging sanity and mental condition is a highly inaccurate 'science'. Infact the medical community is pretty much split on whether ADD even exists. There's no objective way to test for it. A doctor who is standing to make quite a bit of money off of a positive diagnosis submits an inattentive child to whatever test they see fit and then feeds them whatever pill they like best. So, saying that religious people are deluded and crazy is just a copout argument.

Originally posted by BillfromCovina

Originally posted by truthiron
reply to post by BillfromCovina

 

BillfromCovina,

Bill the falling away was a prophecy given way back yonder coming true now. Future history.

Here's a few, 2 Thes. 2:3, 1 Tim. 4:1-3, 2 Tim. 3:1-3 and 2 Tim. 4:3-4

Truthiron.

Truthiron if you read my earlier posts you will see why it does not fulfill prophecy or describe what is happening. In a nutshell, there are more Christians today than at any other time in history. Many people believe because they are afraid of death and hell. They use scripture to try and reinforce their beliefs. This is one of the prophecies they try and use on themselves when they come across an ex-christian.

By "there are more Christians today than there ever have been", do you mean percentage-wise because I'm inclined to believe that has something to do with globalization and the enormous jumps in population the world has undergone in the past 50 years alone. The statistics I'm looking at show that there are 2.1 billion christians in the world and 1.1 billion atheist/secular/agnostic/non religious people www.adherents.com... . Still a minority and not really capable of 'oppressing' Christians, but still the highest it's ever been.

reply to post by kallisti36

Kallisti, you posted how that a man without the Bible could rationalize killing and that the Bible or word was very definitive. I responded and told you how it wasn't. You then tried to rationalize killing and why it was okay. Don't you see the irony and how you proved yourself wrong. The reason I brought up prisons and mental institutions is not to name call. It is to show you that you do not need this book and that it is not making the world a better place. You also tried to send me to a web site so I could rationalize killing.