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John Titor: The cost and motive for a hoax

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posted on Jun, 27 2004 @ 02:45 AM
This forum is loaded with JT threads... So I figure it's best to get out every issue concerning JT while we still can.

Assuming that the JT story IS a hoax, how much would it cost to pull off? Also, what would be the motive of such a thing?

First, the visual evidence is said to indicate that JT's car is a 60s/70s era Corvette... which, in 2000, would be an expensive automobile to buy. Here are some price listings for vettes of this era. You'll find them to be more expensive than your average new sedan:

It's also been suggested that the vette pictured has had its interior modified, meaning that it has lost a considerable amount of its purchasing value. So, even if JT sold his vette after finishing his hoax, he lost money on it:

Another item we see in the photos is a shotgun which one ATSer has identified as a Mossberg 500:
What would this weapon sell for at a dealership?

We also have the machine itself, which one person (without providing links) claimed was an old chem weapon detector. How much would such a military device sell for at an auction/surplus store? How long would it take to modify (I assume it is medal, mostly, and would need to be welded to the point where it was less recognizeable). Are we even sure that this is what the machine was?

JT's story is also 'supported' with many diagrams and documents. He had to:
1.take the time to make professional quality drafts and
2.take the time to forge believable looking docs

On top of all this, he had to come up with a 'way' for his machine to work... and it had to be believable enough to keep even educated people guessing for awhile.

So, IF a hoax:

1.We have a man who bought and damaged an expensive automobile
2.Bought a gun with a registration that can probably be tracked
3. Scoured a military surplus store for something he could pass of as a time machine... then modified it to look more exotic
4.Took the time to draw up a variety of graphs, documents, cutaways, and create a unit badge/insignia
5.Took the time to 'invent' a method for time travel that requires an education to debunk

Now.... together.... all of this is expensive, and probably would have taken months to accomplish. The only way he could do this cheaply would be if he already owned all this stuff and had a basic understanding of physics. How many corvette driving hunters do you know who are aware of 'singularities'?

My guess is that if we calculated the cost of this hoax... it would go over $36,000

[edit on 27-6-2004 by onlyinmydreams]

[edit on 27-6-2004 by John bull 1]

posted on Jun, 27 2004 @ 04:13 AM
Interesting points, but yet, ...

Who sais he needed to buy the car? As you stated too, he could very well just own one. Then also, why would he have needed to sell it after the hoax?????

Modifying or creating a complicated looking piece of electronic machinery is a piece of cake and I can tell you right here and now, I could pull of a better looking job then what was shown in the pictures. I'm into modifying and costom building computer cases and its really cheap and rather easy to create wonderfull looking machines. Same goes for car modifications, its rather easy to make something look special, as you might understand, he only provided pictures, so it didn't actualy need to work ..., hence it could just be some mounted cases.

I can build you a 4 way cluster case(a computer case wich can hold 4 systems, with all fitings and guides for airflow and wiring) that looks exactly the same as "Data"'s pilot console in Star Trek Enterprise, and it would only cost about 100$ to build.

Also, most of the tech he explained and the history, documents and science came straight out of an RPG module that was like 10 years old and when you look on google, you can even find references to exactly what RPG module it was.(EDIT: found it RPG system called GURPS, the base of the module John Titor based his work on available here: )

I goto say, forging the documentation(that can't be found for or in relation to the RPG module) takes some time and handywork, but seeing its all digital imaging and no actual papers can be studied for authenticity, this gets a whole lot easyer too.
But overal its not that difficult, expencive or hard to do. People that pull hoaxes like this put massive amounts of time in it, just because thats the most fun of it. Preparation of a hoax is the work and then making it happen is the satisfaction to your work, if it works.
Same goes for elaborate website events like "The Hunt" and all those sites that organise RPG/Alternate Reality Games for their site participants.

Alot of organisation goes into it but the actual execution of the game, hoax or RPG is the payoff of the fun hard work you put into it.

Then, most interesting aspect(hole maybe) in your money issue, if its real, then how do you explain John Titor comming here with a 60's/70's corvette, while they are rare and rather expencive at this point in time already.
When you go on an undercover mission, you don't really go in style and with the hottest set of wheels ...

Then, the MOTIVE part, classic pen & paper RPG designer/players get the biggest kick out of their game if they can get it involving and captivating for the players. The biggest kick is when the players don't even know they are in a game, but actualy believe what is happening, when the person telling the story of the RPG is so good that he is absolutely convincing and believed. Thats the ultimate kick for a RPG player!!! No matter how much time it consumes, the more the better really, when the payoff is as great as what John Titor got from his then thats the absolute ultimate achievement and kick for an RPG designer/player.

[edit on 27-6-2004 by thematrix]

posted on Jun, 27 2004 @ 04:22 PM
I have to agree with TheMatrix,

Hoaxing something like this is not expensive, the car could be a friends or relatives, and yes sweet cherry'd out old vettes are worth alot, but you could find a piece of crap vette with no engine and so-so interior at a junkyard for close to bupkis.

I may be mistaken but we never do see a full picture of the car's exterior.

Remember we only see what JT and his friends want us to see. As for a mossberg new yes can run you some bucks, used or at a gun show probably not so much. This can also fall under the category of it was a friends or family members.

Plus the thing looked really new and shiny, not war weary and wouldn't you want a matte black shotgun for combat. That silver is oh so pretty but oh so reflective.

As for faking machines and diagrams this is not expensive and no one pulls off a successfull hoax alone.

There are a lot of people out there hoaxing from Montauk to Ong's hat (which seems to be finally admitting it was a "social experiment" which is a failry diplomatic way of saying, you caught us.

Nothing JT says, shows are does is beyond anyones means even four years ago this was easy to fake.

So many more holes in the titor thing, it's interesting but sorry it is a hoax. Though I've stated in the past that I think Hoax is a harsh word considering I don't know the players.

Just an opinion based on research, I don't consider my POV the only one.

Also forgot to mention and apologize for not having the link but there was a group out there that made a strong case for the John Titor story being based on a book called Alas Babylon, I believe that was the title of the book. It isn't what I would consider solid proof JT is hoaxing, but it's interesting none the less.

[edit on 6/27/2004 by Spiderj]

posted on Jun, 27 2004 @ 11:18 PM
Well, I brought up the buy/sell issue with the corvette because a poster mentioned, in the ATS thread I linked to, that there had been significant changes to the interior of the vette relating to where the stick and things like that should be. Surely someone wouldn't tear up a car they had rented for a hoax...

But, Ok, maybe he owns the thing. To that I have to say... any guy who owns a classic Vette and spends hundreds of hours reaserching and delivering a hoax is seriously misdirected. I mean, really -- you've got a mega chick magnet and you're writing a story about time travel you'll never make money from???

As for the availability of the corvette in 2036..
1.yes, the machine would, normally, be worth macro bucks by then... but we have to consider that in JT's storyline society is pretty damaged and might be willing to sacrifice a museum piece for the sake of preventing of his mission (both the one he mentioned and whatever else he might have been up to... ). Also, people are supposedly less self-centered, so a gas-guzzling, cool vette might not be as socially acceptable, and valuable, as an ethanol burning tractor.
2.Cars like Mustangs, Corvettes, and GTOs have a better chance of being preserved than Tauruses, Luminas, and Celicas.
3.We have to assume that (within JT's story) many auto museums were destroyed (the collections in Detroit, for instance). Now, JT needed a car that would fit INTO the 1970s without being noticed. So... what types of cars would exist in 2036 that had spent their lives in rural or suburban commmunities, that dated to the 60s/70s, and would still work? You're pretty much left with vintage Vettes, Mustangs, and the like. I don't really see people preserving some Pinto for 50 years.

posted on Jun, 28 2004 @ 12:00 AM
I'm with SpiderJ I think the whole thing wasn't just one person.
Maybe someone's idea, but I bet there was a group of people in on it. Probably some people on the boards where he posted too.
But damn, don't you hope for it? John Titor future? It sounds pretty good, after the battle crap.

posted on Jun, 28 2004 @ 12:07 AM

Originally posted by MrDead
I'm with SpiderJ I think the whole thing wasn't just one person.
Maybe someone's idea, but I bet there was a group of people in on it. Probably some people on the boards where he posted too.
But damn, don't you hope for it? John Titor future? It sounds pretty good, after the battle crap.

If it wasn't for the whole 'damaged corvette' issue I'd be open to this... simply because I don't see any owner of a classic vette allowing anyone to prance around his machine with this junk. My dad owns a classic malibu and he won't even let me walk near it. Car guys are like that... they're like museum guards. No touch.

posted on Jun, 28 2004 @ 12:12 AM
well maybe he had a vette himself.
Damn I hate when I can't touch stuff.

But I see your point.

A corvette though isn't something like having einsteins original papers. Lots of people have corvettes.

posted on Jun, 28 2004 @ 02:16 AM

If it wasn't for the whole 'damaged corvette' issue I'd be open to this... simply because I don't see any owner of a classic vette allowing anyone to prance around his machine with this junk. My dad owns a classic malibu and he won't even let me walk near it. Car guys are like that... they're like museum guards. No touch.

But we don't see the vette, we see the interior, it could be anything at all. Hell his family could own a junkyard for all we know. We never see the vette, we see a seat and what may be a console, that's all.

We see what he wants us to see. There are too many unanswered questions to give him the benefit of the doubt.


posted on Jun, 28 2004 @ 02:59 AM
Easier and cheaper ... Use Photoshop for the pix.

posted on Jun, 28 2004 @ 09:23 AM
As mentioned, we see very little of his car from his pics, it really could be in any condition. Or be any sort of imitation/similar vehicle.

Ditto the shotgun, but it strikes me that from what Titor is saying he is the type who would own quite a few guns. As far as his 'machine' it really could be made out of any sort of surplus junk. All we ever see of his gear is small images with enough resolution loss to make sure they are incomprehensible, (when they didn't really need to be).

As far as all his documents, photoshop pretty much hits the nail on the head.

I doubt he went about and set up his entire hoax beforehand. Although its really only a days work. He more likely built and added bits and pieces over the days as he found he was getting more and more attention.

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