Obama Strips the 'Creator' from Declaration of Independence -- Again, page 3
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reply posted on 20-10-2010 @ 03:52 PM by Elsek
reply to post by Becoming



Of course it was good enough to jump start America in 1776! When they still thought the earth was created 6000 years ago. With time change must come. If you dont change you cant adapt to what is coming next. (my use of change is not used to promote Obama).

You may be offended that he took out creator because you believe in a creator.
What if I dont believe in a creator?
Should I still stand up for something I dont believe in?


reply posted on 20-10-2010 @ 03:53 PM by jibeho
Let's take a breather for a brief moment. Plenty of debate already about the Christian meaning of creator. Many have already asserted the use of the word in the Declaration is benign and can be applied to any belief. I agree.

Let's now look to the Chelan Indians and other Native Americans and their beliefs.

Long, long ago, the Creator, the Great Chief Above, made the world. Then he made the animals and the birds and gave them their names -- Coyote, Grizzly Bear, Deer, Fox, Eagle, the four Wolf Brothers, Magpie, Bluejay, Hummingbird, and all the others. When he had finished his work, the Creator called the animal people to him. "I am going to leave you," he said. "But I will come back. When I come again, I will make human beings. They will be in charge of you." The Great Chief returned to his home in the sky, and the animal people scattered to all parts of the world.

After twelve moons, the animal people gathered to meet the Creator as he had directed. Some of them had complaints. Bluejay, Meadowlark, and Coyote did not like their names. Each of them asked to be some other creature. "No," said the Creator. "I have given you your names. There is no change. My word is law.


Chinook
Talapas (Creator) gave life to the surface of the Earth. It grew in abundance. Later, he placed the animal forms of all the Totem Spirits on the surface of the Earth Mother, and they prospered. Talapas then instructed T'soona (Thunderbird) to carry these special eggs from the other place, and place them on the top of Kaheese, a mountain near the Yakaitl-Wimakl (Columbia River). T'soona did so.


Chippewa
When the Earth was young it had a family. The moon, or Grandmother and the sun, called Grandfather. The Earth was a woman - Mother Earth - because from her came all living things. Mother Earth was given four directions - East, South, West, and North, each with physical and spiritual powers.When Mother Earth was young Creator, or Gichi-Manidoo as Ojibwe people call him, filled her with beauty. He sent singers in the form of birds and swimmers in the water. He placed plants, trees, insects, crawlers and four-legged animals on the land.Gichi-Manidoo then blew into four parts of Mother Earth using the sacred megis shell. From the union of these four and his breath, two-leggeds or man, was born. Thus, man was the last form of life to be put on Earth. From this original man came the Anishinaabe - or The Original People.


www.crystalinks.com...

Creator certainly means many things to many people. Hence the power of the word and why it was used.
edit on 20-10-2010 by jibeho because: content



reply posted on 20-10-2010 @ 03:54 PM by Becoming
reply to post by sheepslayer247



Nobody said anything about Christianity.

It says "their creator" not "their christian creator".



reply posted on 20-10-2010 @ 03:56 PM by getreadyalready
reply to post by sheepslayer247




I simply believe that it serves no purpose to call ourselves a Christian nation.


I agree with you on that point. I think we were founded as a Christian nation, and I think it is important that we are still a "religious" nation, but I do not think any single religion should be more important than another, and neither did our founding fathers.

You are right about the technological advancements, but don't you think the rapid technological advancement was because of "freedom" to explore and freedom to conspire and freedom to invent? Great Britain, France, Russia, Spain, China and all other nations had head starts and they all had more people and more infrastructure, so why didn't they spark all this innovative advancement?


reply posted on 20-10-2010 @ 03:58 PM by xuenchen
and here's a theory about MONEY being the "creator"!

maybe the D of I was a continuation of economics?

NOTE: no provocation intended here ... just an opinion of one person's studies.

////////////
General Notes taken from college lectures: subject was modern religion origins.
Suggests that modern religions (and languages) were “invented” for economic purposes!
These notes and lectures evolved into a 300-page book written by a friend of mine.
Many details are contained about nations (and continents) and economies past and present.
Too much to list here.

Babylonian / Hebrew / Roman “Money Funnel” Economies
– seek to control populations (wide-area banking systems).

Dates are based on “modern” calendar system
B.C. and A.D. did not exist until middle ages

Phoenicians were “pre-Hebrew”, Semitic (language) society groups that dominated and “governed” trade and finance
(3000 b.c. – 1000 b.c.) (Multi-nation influence) (Entire Mediterranean coastal areas)
“Banking and finance” was based on Babylonian code systems.

1000 B.C. to year 0:

Hebrew / Jewish “Faiths” and “Laws” were created by “elitist” financial and trade group scholars.
(from various Semite (language) “ruling class” Phoenician influenced nations, and some Greek)
(some “Babylonian” beliefs were “borrowed”) (especially financial)
(no “national” borders or boundaries, no genuine single “ethnicities”)
(creates “Judaism”)
(calendar adopted from Chinese trade partnerships)

Scholars from these groups “create” the Hebrew language (from Phoenician-Canaanite) and create a pre-Latin language (from Greek).

Latin to be used primarily by the trade and financial sub-groups (from different ethnic populations), and military forces.
Latin to be used to consolidate many Italic languages (mostly “spoken” languages, not “written” at major trade junctions, city of Rome, etc.).
Hebrew to be used by “elite” educated scholar groups (consolidated Semitic language).
Latin / Hebrew accounting systems to be used by merchants and scribes.


“Old Testament” created and written by Hebrew “scholars and scribes”.

Attempt to control all other beliefs and consolidate into one belief - for trade and financial control (universal banking).
Consolidates different Semite languages.
Anti-Paganism.
Used (and enhanced) many exaggerated “Pagan” stories and myths and folk lore to fit agenda and spread “Jewish” influence (“religious” and financial).
Creates mythical characters.
Jewish “expulsions” and “exiles” created (with ruling governments) to allow Jewish “colonizing” in “open” territories (infiltration of economies).
Creates “historical” “records” to fit the “Jewish” agendas, based on fears and legends
Hebrew “envoys” and “scouts” (well-educated and multi-lingual) contact “target” territories
– attempt “Judea” conversions (religious and economic goals) prior to military invasions (some success).
Calendar manipulations begin to coincide with “religious” “historical” events.


“New Testament” created and written by Hebrew “scholars and scribes” - 1st century by secret Roman agreements.

Hebrew Anti-Pagan efforts were failures.
Hebrew beliefs were not widely accepted by general (conquered) populations.
Hebrews create “anti-Jewish” (anti-Semitic) rivalries to set stage for a “new”, more popular “religions”.
Hebrews create un-provable “history” from mythical events and stories and fictional characters.
Roman govt and Hebrew Scholars “align” and “invent” the appearance of being “rivals” (includes military expeditions).
Roman govt accepts and begins codification of “Jewish” financial influences (banking systems).
Hebrew scholars consolidate and re-invent a Latin alphabet, for common use by populations (west).
“New Testament” written in more than one “language” to “accommodate” conquered populations.

Paganism was the predominant belief at the time.

Latin became predominant language (easily understood by conquered populations) in Roman Empire (west).

Greek, Hebrew, and Aramaic were widely spoken (east and west).


Roman efforts to control society with a “new” belief (Christianity") – 2nd thru 5th century.

False flag “Laws” enacted to promote “Christianity” and demote “Judaism”.
“Historical” Myths of “Hebrew” slavery and mass discrimination created to enhance the “anti-Semitism” agendas.
“news” and “events” are created of Jewish massacres, expulsions, etc. (some truth) (as sacrificial “investments”).
Allows for more “Jewish Expansion” into new territories (established new trade routes and merchant groups).

Christianity rejected by Arab factions - Roman East.
Christianity generally accepted - Roman West.
Hebrew scholars “create” and write Islam beliefs to counter Christian (and Judea) beliefs.
Arab factions accept Islam and eventually adapt to “Jewish” financial systems.



Sub-Latin languages and “spin-off” Hebrew languages (and some Cyrillic) created and enhanced,
to allow better (religious and economic) “manipulation” of localized populations,
- 6th century thru Middle Ages to present day 21st century.

Establishes strong “ethnic” groups (new nationalities and languages) through local inbreeding after intermingling.
Continuation of “culture – counter-cultures” agendas (religious and economic) among “financially conquered” territories.
Continuation of “Hebrew suppression” myths and Jewish “suffering” to further the financial and power agendas.
Continuation of “governments’” public anti-Semitism agendas and
furthering of “Jewish” privately controlled economies and expansions.
Continuation of Jewish “migrations” and dominance of financial systems.
Continuation of attempted “Judea” conversions (religious and economic goals) prior to military invasions
(some disguised as “Islam” or “Christian”) (some non-military success).
“Dark Ages” (history blackout) created to mask solidification efforts of major “religions” (the ‘Big Three’),
and to backdate, modify and solidify “historical” records and illusions.
Continuation of language and calendar manipulation for economic (and legal) control agendas.
Establishment of “higher learning” institutions for further development of economic agendas and “illusional maintenance”
(economic and political dominance through “education”).

...anything look familiar here?


reply posted on 20-10-2010 @ 03:59 PM by sheepslayer247
reply to post by getreadyalready


I think we are created at conception. Some people may have a different idea. As long as they do not impede the freedoms of other than believe what you like. The abortion issue is more about politics than anything else. The fact that abortion happens is not about religion or politics, it's about the value we put on human life.

It also does not matter "who" created us, just that we are here...and alive. Who or why we are here does not change the fact that I am free, and there's nothing anyone can do about. According to the constitution anyway.


reply posted on 20-10-2010 @ 03:59 PM by Becoming
Originally posted by Elsek
reply to
post by Becoming



Of course it was good enough to jump start America in 1776! When they still thought the earth was created 6000 years ago. With time change must come. If you dont change you cant adapt to what is coming next. (my use of change is not used to promote Obama).

You may be offended that he took out creator because you believe in a creator.
What if I dont believe in a creator?
Should I still stand up for something I dont believe in?


I'm not religous, if you wasn't so thick headed you would see that I have a problem with him changing it period. It doesn't matter if it was written over 200 years ago, it is the foundation that this country was built on. When you start changing the foundation the rest of the building will need to be changed also.


reply posted on 20-10-2010 @ 04:01 PM by sheepslayer247
reply to post by IAMIAM


I am glad that you have found your beliefs. That is important, but we all have the same rights, whether we believe in the same creator or not.


reply posted on 20-10-2010 @ 04:03 PM by getreadyalready
reply to post by sheepslayer247



I am free, and there's nothing anyone can do about. According to the constitution anyway.


You can be kidnapped....murdered.....prosecuted.....imprisoned.......driven out of business.......clerically deleted......or persecuted out of the town/state/country.

You are only free if you believe you are free. Nelson Mandela was free, you and I are slaves.

Even according to our sacred constitution, there are plenty of ways to take your freedom. You have as much or as little freedom as the government allows you to have. Therefore, every single syllable out of the President's mouth is important and historic.


reply posted on 20-10-2010 @ 04:03 PM by sheepslayer247
reply to post by Becoming


If you look in the past posts, the phrase "christian nation" has been mentioned many times. If their is a particular statement that I misunderstood, please point me to it and I will clarify.


reply posted on 20-10-2010 @ 04:03 PM by Mactire
Originally posted by IAMIAM
Originally posted by Mactire
So while those who say that Obama has insulted their beliefs by omitting the word "creator" from his version of the D.O.I, he is protected under Freedom of Speech, and the fact that Religion is to be kept separate from governmental matters (an ideal that wasn't considered upon the Declaration's creation, but should have been changed upon the birth of the first Amendment thirteen years later).


My friend,

Religion is what our state is to be separate from. Religion is dogma, structure of belief, and tradition of practice of faith. Yes, we need to keep our government separate from this. Which is why the term "Creator" was used in "The Declaration of Independence". It is dogma neutral.

Our country is founded on a belief in a creator, it just does not define what that creator is. A creator is where we derive our rights, our FREEDOM. Without it, where would those rights come from?

This is a very IMPORTANT omission. Had it happened once, maybe an accidental misstep, twice, perhaps lack of sleep, repeatedly, something is foul.

He is an elected representative of our rights. Failing to acknowledge the source of those rights is denial. Denying the source of those rights is setting us up to have them taken away.

Believe what you will, just remember I told you so.

With Love,

Your Brother


Oh... I get it. You think he was "elected" into his position. His position is an illusion, as are our "rights" I'm wasn't saying I'm on Obama's side, but the word "creator" implies a Higher Power. I don't think they were talking about single celled organisms when they wrote the Declaration of Independence. Its a silly term that can be as insulting as it is comforting, depending on the person. I don't care if the word is present or not. Personally, I couldn't imagine God wanting to be affiliated with America any longer. He may not want his "title" used as a brand stamped all over money, buildings, in the tattoos of gang members, in the speeches of musicians and MMA fighters, and as a method of dividing people instead of unifying them.
This entire thread is the kind of affiliation that I would image makes "God" look over his shoulder at the little red button on the wall, and makes him wonder "Is it time?".



reply posted on 20-10-2010 @ 04:03 PM by Elsek
reply to post by jibeho



Thank you for posting that first off.

I believe that most people see Creator as a God even if they dont believe in such Creator or God.

This is why it is ok for Obama to remove it.

Now if everyone in the world saw the word Creator (in that context) to be: Someone that started the Nation, then creator would be perfectly acceptable right there. But thats just not the case as it is widely seen to represent a God.


reply posted on 20-10-2010 @ 04:05 PM by sheepslayer247
reply to post by getreadyalready


Exactly! Freedom perpetuates all things. Religion does not. So this entire issue about Obama's speech means nothing, unless our freedoms are taken from us.


reply posted on 20-10-2010 @ 04:06 PM by Elsek
reply to post by Becoming



And theres something wrong with changing the "rest of the building"? I dont see anything wrong in changing the fact that we are at war. The fact that unemployment is over 10% and that oil is so expensive.


reply posted on 20-10-2010 @ 04:12 PM by Becoming
Originally posted by sheepslayer247
reply to
post by Becoming


If you look in the past posts, the phrase "christian nation" has been mentioned many times. If their is a particular statement that I misunderstood, please point me to it and I will clarify.



Its not my job to defend those that wish to say that we are a christian country. I am merely pointing out that this document doesn't say anything about that.

I am against any change made to this document, that includes those who point to it and say that it says that we are a christian nation.


reply posted on 20-10-2010 @ 04:12 PM by sheepslayer247
Originally posted by getreadyalready
reply to
post by sheepslayer247



I am free, and there's nothing anyone can do about. According to the constitution anyway.


You can be kidnapped....murdered.....prosecuted.....imprisoned.......driven out of business.......clerically deleted......or persecuted out of the town/state/country.

You are only free if you believe you are free. Nelson Mandela was free, you and I are slaves.

Even according to our sacred constitution, there are plenty of ways to take your freedom. You have as much or as little freedom as the government allows you to have. Therefore, every single syllable out of the President's mouth is important and historic.


You are right, these things can happen to anyone. This is what we get when we use political or religious bias' against others we disagree with to inhibit their freedoms for our own personal gratification. That is the fault of Man, not the system its self.


reply posted on 20-10-2010 @ 04:16 PM by IAMIAM
Originally posted by sheepslayer247
reply to
post by IAMIAM


I am glad that you have found your beliefs. That is important, but we all have the same rights, whether we believe in the same creator or not.


Exactly my friend,

We do not need to have the same concept of a creator. But, it must be acknowledged that there is something greater than us which created us and endowed us with rights. Without this, where do our rights come from?

The answer is the State.

Without an outside creative force, rights are by endowed by the State as the State sees fit. Haven't we seen this in Atheistic societies already? China, Russia, Cuba, South America, etc.

Rights are only protected as unalienable if it is acknowledged that they come from a source that is beyond the reach of Man.

Look at what is going on this country. Rights are being stripped daily because WE allow them to be because WE do not acknowledge where they come from any more. We are being conditioned to think that they come from the state. Speech is being impeded(hate speech), our right to assemble is being impeded(protests requiring permits), our right to religion is being impeded(I believe it is my religious right to smoke weed), our right to press is being impeded (wikileaks), our right to bear arms is being impeded(numerous fire arms laws), every right we had protected is now mandated and controlled by the State.

And we continue to bicker over small religious differences rather than acknowledge the enslavement creeping up on us. We are being divided along partisan lines, race lines, religious lines, cultural lines, and every other line they can find to divide us. Why is this? To give them the control. We cannot UNITE and control ourselves long enough to protect each other from our own enslavement.

They playing the game like masters and are eating it up.

If you do not believe in a Creator, do not complain when you do not have the freedom you once thought you had. You have nothing other than your self to hang those rights on.

As for me, my rights come from my Creator, and I will stand up for them, and yours while I am at it.

With Love,

Your Brother


reply posted on 20-10-2010 @ 04:16 PM by Becoming
Originally posted by Elsek
reply to
post by Becoming



And theres something wrong with changing the "rest of the building"? I dont see anything wrong in changing the fact that we are at war. The fact that unemployment is over 10% and that oil is so expensive.


Just because you have a few shingles loose doesn't mean you rip up the foundation and start over. I feel I am talking in circles with you, whatever you are going to post I am sure you can find the answer in another one of my post in this thread.


reply posted on 20-10-2010 @ 04:20 PM by Sestias
Originally posted by jibeho
By omitting "creator" Obama is actually creating an issue out of thin air. An issue that never really existed to begin with. We can't change the way the document was written. Obama seems to think that he can.

I suppose the man will apologize for this text in his next speech. The man has got some deep rooted personal demons that he must deal with in private. Check them at the door to the Oval Office.


There is a whole lot more of the Declaration of Independence that Obama did not quote. Does that mean he doesn't believe in it? Surprising and dismaying as it might seem, Obama just might be a person who doesn't broadcast his religious beliefs every time he opens his mouth. Unusual in the poiltical climate of today, I admit.

And some of you might be surprised to learn that many of the founders of the United States were of religions other than Christian and some who had no religion at all. Thomas Jefferson was particularly outspoken in favor of religious tolerance. He wrote of atheists, "They neither pick my pocket nor break my leg."

Here's a link from the Library of Congress regarding the attitudes of the founders toward religious tolerance. The article is specifically about their willingness to accept Muslims but it covers the whole gamut as well:

Library of Congress

You have to remember that most of the founders came from countries where people were killing each other over religion. In light of that the attitude of tolerance embraced by the new nation was truly revolutionary.

Some among us would undoubtedly like to go back to killing each other over religion again. That's where some of this thread is trending.
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