Did Jesjuah stage his own death in order to escape from it all?

Originally posted by The Djin
reply to post by adjensen

 

Regardless of the nature of Father and Son, Jesus was killed. Killed, dead and buried, despite your ignorant claim otherwise. He was subsequently resurrected in body, as Christians believe we all will be.

Ignorant ?really ? For your information the allegation is that jesus son of joseph was "Entombed" not buried coincidentally one jesus son of joseph was residing "entombed" at Talpiot , not your jesus I bet ?

So the best you can muster at this point is to argue semantics? Yes, you are clearly ignorant in your claims about who killed Jesus and whether he died or not.

There is no shame in saying you are wrong about a point, or that you don't understand it. Saying that you're wrong about who killed Jesus isn't saying you believe Jesus existed, or that he was killed, but to continue to say "he did it" or "he gets some Romans to kill him" is to continue to profess your own ignorance and biased view.

And he was killed by men,

Men acting according to the big plan because if they didn't we wouldn't be having this conversation and as yahwhe / jesus is the alleged creator of everything there is ,was or will ever be then no event could take place outside of that plan (design).

So you're a believer in predestination and intelligent design? Would not have guessed that. Knowing something will happen is rather different than causing it to happen. Men "acted according to the big plan" because of their own choices, not because they were forced to.

apparently jesus (god/yahweh) is still around alive and well according to xtians a "living god" so he did not die and there was no sacrifice the god did not lose a son, how is it possible for an omniscient being to lose anything ?

Okay, so you don't know what "omniscience" means, either. Or "resurrected." Not surprising, I guess.

"xtians"? Are you so afraid of him that you can't spell out his title?

reply to post by adjensen

Saying that you're wrong about who killed Jesus isn't saying you believe Jesus existed, or that he was killed, but to continue to say "he did it" or "he gets some Romans to kill him" is to continue to profess your own ignorance and biased view.

Of course I believe a jesus existed there were plenty of jesus hanging in the first century dude as I mentioned one such jesus "jesus son of joseph" was "entombed at Talpiot .

As for your jesus ? The one that appears in the bibles ? Well as we are both aware the historical record didn't mention this guy .

Tell me something big boy, how can the creator (your yawhe/jesus godman thing) of "everything" that is was or will ever be, not be aware of something ?


And while we're at it you still have not accounted for the lack of sacrifice

reply to post by Neo Christian Mystic


I take Jesus died for our sins literally. The sinful world around Jesus ultimately resulted in his murder.

How can people come back from the dead?

From a sci-fi futuristic perspective...

Suppose humankind or any species in the galaxy for that matter evolves into the Q from Star Trek TNG and that the Q have the power to go back in time. The Q continuum could choose to go back in time transforming those who are worthy into Q like themselves bringing them back from the dead so they may live for eternity.

If the Q can go back in time, in a sense they have always existed and have always been with us and could have resurrected Jesus 3 days after his death.

reply to post by adjensen


You should realize the futilty of trying to even debate this with Djin.
He enters religious threads merely to attack and ridicule the veracity of
the Bible and Jesus Christ, always antagonizing the posters who are
"believers".

It is an exercise in futility. Don't rise to the bait, it is a waste of time and
engineered to get people upset.

When asked reasonable questions or when confronted with something that he
cannot explain, he just attacks and ridicules with his assertation that everything
is fake, the Bible is a fairy tale.... etc. How convenient.

Originally posted by The Djin
Tell me something big boy, how can the creator (your yawhe/jesus godman thing) of "everything" that is was or will ever be, not be aware of something ?

Who said that he was? You again seem to be confusing knowing about something with causing it. I can see the wind blowing outside my window, I'm not causing the wind. I am aware of your ignorance, I'm not the cause of it.

And while we're at it you still have not accounted for the lack of sacrifice

Since you don't believe that he suffered enough, and you think that he killed himself, and you don't believe that he died, why should I keep explaining it over and over? Think if I explain it for the fifth time, you'll understand it more than the first four?

No, by your way of thinking, there is no sacrifice. But there is no basis, in theology, or in the facts as depicted in scripture, for your way of thinking, so your claim is invalid. Simply saying "Christ didn't die" doesn't make it so, any more than saying "The Djin understands theology" makes it so.

Atheists with little, no or a faulty understanding of theology make crappy debaters, because all they're left with is "I don't believe!" which is fine, but is a lousy point of argument for anyone other than yourself.

My friends,

The kingdom of God is within you. Thus Jesus had no reason to fear dying on the cross. By his death, he gained the heavenly kingdom, and demonstrated to us his lessons of how to bring that kingdom about on earth. Without his death on the cross, his message would have been transparent and corrupted. It was what he had to do to teach mankind a lesson. Jesus did not teach medicine. The OP failed in anyway to demonstrate anything that would even remotely hint that Jesus' lessons were talking about medicine or science.

Jesus presented a clear message that each and everyone of us are part and parcel, completely and truly, without a doubt and undeniably, one with God. God is the whole of this existence. We are not separate from him. What blinds us to this fact is fear and doubt caused by this fear.

When you come to accept the fact that God is within you and ALL Man, then you will realise that when you transgress against another, you transgress against God. Thus:

Luke 8:16-17 "No one, when he has lit a lamp, covers it with a container, or puts it under a bed; but puts it on a stand, that those who enter in may see the light. For nothing is hidden, that will not be revealed; nor anything secret, that will not be known and come to light."

Luke 11:33-36 "No man, when he has lit a lamp, puts it in a cellar, nor under a basket, but on a stand, that those who enter in may see the light. The lamp of the body is the eye. Therefore when your eye is good, your whole body is also full of light; but when it is evil, your body also is full of darkness. Therefore see whether the light that is in you isn’t darkness. If therefore your whole body is full of light, having no part dark, it will be wholly full of light, as when the lamp with its bright shining gives you light."

This realisation should lead one to the conclusion that the only way to truly live in peace with all these manifestations of God walking around, you must love them. This must be the foundation for your belief for others to be as free as you wish to be. Accepting this realisation, you must then build up within you a new system of belief that accepts all for who they are. Thus:

Luke 6:47-49 Everyone who comes to me, and hears my words, and does them, I will show you who he is like. He is like a man building a house, who dug and went deep, and laid a foundation on the rock. When a flood arose, the stream broke against that house, and could not shake it, because it was founded on the rock. But he who hears, and doesn’t do, is like a man who built a house on the earth without a foundation, against which the stream broke, and immediately it fell, and the ruin of that house was great."

One cannot simply cover his old belief with a new belief of love. The hate contained in the old belief will only diminish the perceived love in the new. Thus:

Luke 5:36 He also told a parable to them. "No one puts a piece from a new garment on an old garment, or else he will tear the new, and also the piece from the new will not match the old."

And...

Luke 5:37,38 No one puts new wine into old wineskins, or else the new wine will burst the skins, and it will be spilled, and the skins will be destroyed. But new wine must be put into fresh wineskins, and both are preserved. No man having drunk old wine immediately desires new, for he says, ‘The old is better.’"

Now not everyone is ready and prepared to divest themselves of their old hatreds. It is not your place to change them, they must change themselves. All you can do is plant the seeds of Love. The seeds of love is the word of God. It is the only way we can live together peacefully being as different as we all are. Thus:

Luke 8:4-15 When a great multitude came together, and people from every city were coming to him, he spoke by a parable. "The farmer went out to sow his seed. As he sowed,

some fell along the road, and it was trampled under foot,

and the birds of the sky devoured it.

other seed fell on the rock, and as soon as it grew, it withered away, because it had no moisture.

Other fell amid the thorns, and the thorns grew with it, and choked it.

Other fell into the good ground, and grew, and brought forth fruit one hundred times."

As he said these things, he called out, "He who has ears to hear, let him hear!" Then his disciples asked him, "What does this parable mean?" He said, "To you it is given to know the mysteries of the Kingdom of God, but to the rest in parables; that ‘seeing they may not see, and hearing they may not understand.’ Now the parable is this: The seed is the word of God.

Those along the road are those who hear, then the devil comes, and takes away the word from their heart, that they may not believe and be saved. Those on the rock are they who, when they hear, receive the word with joy but these have no root, who believe for a while, then fall away in time of temptation. That which fell among the thorns, these are those who have heard, and as they go on their way they are choked with cares, riches, and pleasures of life, and bring no fruit to maturity. That in the good ground, these are such as in an honest and good heart, having heard the word, hold it tightly, and bring forth fruit with patience.

The understanding that God is within you is difficult to accept for some because of their own sense of unworthiness. Their own shame or cultural upbringing buries this truth deep inside them. But, when you get beyond this disbelief and accept it, the joy rises within. Thus:

Luke 13:20,210 Again he said, "To what shall I compare the Kingdom of God? It is like yeast, which a woman took and hid in three measures of flour, until it was all leavened."

And that none will take it from you...

Matt 13:44 "Again, the Kingdom of Heaven is like a treasure hidden in the field, which a man found, and hid. In his joy, he goes and sells all that he has, and buys that field."

Matt 13:45,46 "Again, the Kingdom of Heaven is like a man who is a merchant seeking fine pearls, who having found one pearl of great price, he went and sold all that he had, and bought it."

Each and everyone of you is a manifestation of God. You have your own connection to him that we can all learn from. Trust in it, build on it, and share it with all. You possess treasure the rest of us do not have, just as we have that which you do not. We are not here to judge one another, but to love one another. Thus:

Matt 13:52 He said to them, "Therefore, every scribe who has been made a disciple in the Kingdom of Heaven is like a man who is a householder, who brings out of his treasure new and old things."

No Man's testimony is worth more or less to God. He weighs us all as equal and pays us all the same price. It does not matter who came to understand him with in them first, or who came to understand him within them last. Each is worth the same to God for each is a manifestation of God. Thus

Matt 20:1-16 "For the Kingdom of Heaven is like a man who was the master of a household, who went out early in the morning to hire laborers for his vineyard. When he had agreed with the laborers for a denarius a day, he sent them into his vineyard. He went out about the third hour, and saw others standing idle in the marketplace. To them he said, ‘You also go into the vineyard, and whatever is right I will give you.’ So they went their way. Again he went out about the sixth and the ninth hour, and did likewise. About the eleventh hour he went out, and found others standing idle. He said to them, ‘Why do you stand here all day idle?’ "They said to him, ‘Because no one has hired us.’ "He said to them, ‘You also go into the vineyard, and you will receive whatever is right.’ When evening had come, the lord of the vineyard said to his steward, ‘Call the laborers and pay them their wages, beginning from the last to the first.’ "When those who were hired at about the eleventh hour came, they each received a denarius. When the first came, they supposed that they would receive more; and they likewise each received a denarius. When they received it, they murmured against the master of the household, saying, ‘These last have spent one hour, and you have made them equal to us, who have borne the burden of the day and the scorching heat!’ "But he answered one of them, ‘Friend, I am doing you no wrong. Didn’t you agree with me for a denarius? Take that which is yours, and go your way. It is my desire to give to this last just as much as to you. Isn’t it lawful for me to do what I want to with what I own? Or is your eye evil, because I am good?’ So the last will be first, and the first last. For many are called, but few are chosen."

Love is the word of God my friends. Love God (this whole existence) with all your being and love your neighbor as yourself. If you call yourself Christian but do not love all equally, are you doing your fathers work more than the Man who calls himself Atheist but does Love all equally? HHhhhhmmmm....

Matt 21:28-32 But what do you think? A man had two sons, and he came to the first, and said, ‘Son, go work today in my vineyard.’ He answered, ‘I will not,’ but afterward he changed his mind, and went. He came to the second, and said the same thing. He answered, ‘I go, sir,’ but he didn’t go. Which of the two did the will of his father?" They said to him, "The first." Jesus said to them, "Most assuredly I tell you that the tax collectors and the prostitutes are entering into the Kingdom of God before you. For John came to you in the way of righteousness, and you didn’t believe him, but the tax collectors and the prostitutes believed him. When you saw it, you didn’t even repent afterward, that you might believe him.

Please my friends, avoid at all cost the thought that you are more righteous to God than your non-believing neighbor. This is a trap, for one holds himself up over others rather than sharing abundantly in the love they have inside, is a fool who thinks he has the wealth of God but does not.

Luke 12:16-21 He spoke a parable to them, saying, "The ground of a certain rich man brought forth abundantly. He reasoned within himself, saying, ‘What will I do, because I don’t have room to store my crops?’ He said, ‘This is what I will do. I will pull down my barns, and build bigger ones, and there I will store all my grain and my goods. I will tell my soul, "Soul, you have many goods laid up for many years. Take your ease, eat, drink, be merry."‘ "But God said to him, ‘You foolish one, tonight your soul is required of you. The things which you have prepared—whose will they be?’ So is he who lays up treasure for himself, and is not rich toward God."

Lastly, we all have a different view of this wonderful creation. None of us will be able to see it completely. We do not have the longevity of life to take such a journey. Our view is much more complete when we share with our Brothers and Sisters though. They have seen things we may never get the chance to. So, share abundantly and with love. To do otherwise is the only sin before God. He created us all in his image, perfectly the way he wanted us for this life.

Luke 15:8-10 Or what woman, if she had ten drachma coins, if she lost one drachma coin, wouldn’t light a lamp, sweep the house, and seek diligently until she found it? When she has found it, she calls together her friends and neighbors, saying, ‘Rejoice with me, for I have found the drachma which I had lost.’ Even so, I tell you, there is joy in the presence of the angels of God over one sinner repenting."

Some Christians do make it hard to want to get to know Jesus Christ. Still others want to make him something that he was not. It is unfortunate. His lessons were lessons of true unconditional Love. He was the Son of God and the Son of Man, and he was your Brother. Thus, you too are the Sons and Daughters of God and of Man with a heavenly kingdom within each and everyone of you. The sooner we understand Christs message, the sooner we can live it. His death on the cross was his last testament to mankind of the greatness of his love and devotion to us all.

Creating hate, discontent, and controversy around his death only shows a lack of belief in the immortality of the soul, that divine spark within us, which no Man has power to destroy.

Judge not, Love all, be at peace.

With Love,

Your Brother

Originally posted by thegoodearth
reply to post by adjensen

 

You should realize the futilty of trying to even debate this with Djin.
He enters religious threads merely to attack and ridicule the veracity of
the Bible and Jesus Christ, always antagonizing the posters who are
"believers".

It is an exercise in futility. Don't rise to the bait, it is a waste of time and
engineered to get people upset.

When asked reasonable questions or when confronted with something that he
cannot explain, he just attacks and ridicules with his assertation that everything
is fake, the Bible is a fairy tale.... etc. How convenient.

lol, thanks, but so far all he's managed to do is demonstrate his own cruelty, indifference to suffering, ignorance and apparent frustration at having it pointed out. I'm not really debating anything, as he's yet to raise a point which doesn't use "I don't believe" as its sole basis.

Based on your experience with the troll, how long before he starts insulting my mother or the dog avatar?

reply to post by adjensen


I suppose you know where he was during the three days, do you find fault with his "killers" ? Why would you care who killed him, it was his life's goal according to Christians, yet they are in amazement that he did it.

If you tell your buddies your plans, then pull it off, you have done it all to yourself, this is better than any science fiction...the god who had to send himself to repair his own failed experiments...i do find it interesting that only christians believe he was without sin,,

Just what is sin ?? It is the insideous part of religion, the "controller" tell everyone they are inferior , warped, unworthy and fit to be destroyed, then offer them a ridiculous solution to completely stop any actual spirituality.... and have them believe that a battle has been won while it is still raging on,

Have you not noticed adjensen, that your defense of this religion is all based on FEAR.

Your entire religion is fear based, while making it appear to be based on "Victory" over some unknown enemy,

You have FAITH, that there will always be attackers, FAITH that the devils only goal in history is to "take you down" FAITH that people will try to change your mind, which is why you will dig your heels in and basically go to your destruction....

The group of people who are in for the biggest shock , is YOUR group,

If said Jesus returned, you would kill him far faster than happened in that biblical account, you would all think he is the devil incarnate, as none of what you guys believe comes from his mouth, and again you couldn't handle that so you wouldn't even believe it was him.

I feel that he is going to scourge the church, if anything, and i tell you what, your beliefs are about to be forgotten , and never returned to .

Originally posted by adjensen
Based on your experience with the troll, how long before he starts insulting my mother or the dog avatar?

Well, he usually works in tandem with a couple other haters.
I have been "cursed" by smiting from my many appendaged
God, by that crew.

Seriously, I don't understand why these virulently anti-God
posters come into these threads. Seem to me that one could
just "laugh" and pass it by, thinking how stupid people who believe are...

That would be the mature response.

Originally posted by GrinchNoMore
reply to post by adjensen

 

I suppose you know where he was during the three days

Nope. Catholics (and some Protestants) believe that he went to Sheol and preached the Gospel to those who had died prior to him, but I'm not Catholic, so I have no opinion. He was dead. Lots of people are dead. I don't claim to know exactly where there are, either.

do you find fault with his "killers" ? Why would you care who killed him, it was his life's goal according to Christians, yet they are in amazement that he did it.

Do I find fault with the people who killed him? Of course I do. Who killed him? We all did. That's the Christian belief. Didn't "pull the switch", didn't physically nail him up, but we're the ones who spiritually put him there. Save the righteous indignation at that -- you're not a Christian, so you don't agree. Whoop-dee-doo. You also don't agree that he died, so what do you care what the reasoning is?

Have you not noticed adjensen, that your defense of this religion is all based on FEAR.

I challenge you to demonstrate that. Show me where I have defended Christianity out of FEAR. It's common for non-believers to paint all Christians with the fundamentalist "turn or burn" bent, but that is not me.

My faith is based on the positive aspects that it has in my current life, not premised on avoiding punishment in the future.

You have FAITH, that there will always be attackers, FAITH that the devils only goal in history is to "take you down" FAITH that people will try to change your mind, which is why you will dig your heels in and basically go to your destruction....

Not sure what you're going on about here, but I don't really care whether you attack me or not. I'll respond, of course, but the likelihood that your insults will have any effect is on a par with the OP's claim that Jesus wore a disguise to "get away from it all".

Well, apart from making you feeling good about yourself by trying to make someone else feel bad about themselves for their beliefs.

What joy there is in that, I don't know.

I've come back to this thread a hundred times. . .and I am intrigued by the implications here. Absolutely amazed. What amazes me is just how simple this concept is, yet its complexitites are astounding. I love it when someone actually makes me think.

Originally posted by thegoodearth

Originally posted by adjensen
Based on your experience with the troll, how long before he starts insulting my mother or the dog avatar?

Well, he usually works in tandem with a couple other haters.
I have been "cursed" by smiting from my many appendaged
God, by that crew.

Seriously, I don't understand why these virulently anti-God
posters come into these threads. Seem to me that one could
just "laugh" and pass it by, thinking how stupid people who believe are...

That would be the mature response.

Your last sentence should explain it all, lol.

Actually, from my experience, there are different types of atheists. Most, they just don't believe, and that's the end of it. If you ask them about their position, or it comes up, they're pretty rational about it, but you wouldn't know they were atheists without asking. Then there are those who have a reasoned position and defend it, but who accept that others are entitled to their own opinions.

But there are also "anti-theists", who don't have a disbelief in God, they have a hatred of God. Something has obviously happened to them in the past that has had a psychological affect on them that makes them every bit as evangelical as some Christians, though they want to tear down, not build up. They are as bigoted as any racist, and truly believe that it's well and good to hate Christians.

I don't know what their problem is, though I suspect that some have egos that are so out of whack (to the positive or negative) that the very notion of God is repugnant, because of the impact that it would have on them.

It seems pathological to hate something this much, if one truly believed it to be fictional.

I don't believe in Satan, myself.

In this reality once you get past the Elohim (duality) back to the Singularity, all of this matters little anyhow, this is something the human mind is incapable of comprehending.

The male, female, yin and yang nolonger exist past the Elohim, Chokmah, wisdom and Biamah, understanding.

Originally posted by adjensen

I don't know what their problem is, though I suspect that some have egos that are so out of whack (to the positive or negative) that the very notion of God is repugnant, because of the impact that it would have on them.

It seems pathological to hate something this much, if one truly believed it to be fictional.

Well, I really hate the book Great Expectations. However, I wouldn't try to enter conversations with people who love the book, just to tell them how psychotic they were to love the book.

Very good observation. Hatred of something that you feel is fictional is a paradox of sorts, wouldn't you say? Indifference, certainly, but virulent hatred seems to acknowledge its existence. How can one hate that which doesn't exist and attack others who have no beef with your indifference, based solely on their belief?

I'm still waiting for Djin to discuss points I made in another thread weeks ago, concerning the existence of the Bible.

Originally posted by thegoodearth
Hatred of something that you feel is fictional is a paradox of sorts, wouldn't you say?

not really when it affects the lives of others and controls through fear and never lets one grow to whoever they can be with all their potential because of shame and guilt from a book is pretty sad and just not human at all.

we need more understanding and love that we are all the same and yet different

Originally posted by MurderCityDevil

Originally posted by thegoodearth
Hatred of something that you feel is fictional is a paradox of sorts, wouldn't you say?

not really when it affects the lives of others and controls through fear and never lets one grow to whoever they can be with all their potential because of shame and guilt from a book is pretty sad and just not human at all.

we need more understanding and love that we are all the same and yet different

There is nothing in Christianity that dictates this, regardless of what you may believe. When I look back at my life, I fail to see where I have not grown to my full potential, as most who practice Christ's real teaching of loving God and loving others find.

You're trapped in the same mire as the fundamentalists that you decry, except on the opposite side. You've become boxed in by rigid beliefs that reflect your biases, not reality.

To claim that the faith which sustains me and brings me joy, as it does to millions of others, is somehow "sad and just not human at all" demonstrates your complete indifference to those who don't believe as you do, regardless of what you think being "humanistic" is.

I understand and support your disbelief, you seem to feel the need to criticize and belittle my faith. Do you see this as your path to "understanding and love"?

reply to post by adjensen

Who said that he was? You again seem to be confusing knowing about something with causing it

Are you claiming that there is something which your god cannot know ?

Likewise are you claiming there has been/is/or will be, something your god is not the creator of ?

not really when it affects the lives of others and controls through fear and never lets one grow to whoever they can be with all their potential because of shame and guilt from a book is pretty sad and just not human at all.

No. Take a breath.

If there is some person or institution who has psychologically abused people, then by all means oppose that misbehavior. That person or institution needs to be opposed.

Opposition does not consist of asking the malefactor what books he likes to read, or whom he would nominate as the fall guy for his misdeeds. "Oh, I read the Bible, and God told me to do these things."

If that line affects your attitude about God, then congratulations, sucker, because the bad guy has just succeeded in distracting you from effectively opposing him, and instead sent you off on a wild goose chase.

Now, what I don't understand is why an atheist would tell me that I should oppose God, rather than tell me I should focus on the people and institutions that do bad things. Surely people so self conscious of their devotion to logic couldn't have been fooled by some pious pretender who told them "God made me do it."

reply to post by thegoodearth

When asked reasonable questions

I've yet to be asked a reasonable question but feel free to fire away.

Originally posted by The Djin
reply to post by adjensen

 

Who said that he was? You again seem to be confusing knowing about something with causing it

Are you claiming that there is something which your god cannot know ?

Yes, apologies, I meant "wasn't", not "was", as the rest of the paragraph would indicate.

I shall go edit, thank you for the correction. (No, I guess that I shall not, there is now a four hour time limit on edits.)