Merkel says German multicultural society has failed

reply to post by Esrom Escutcheon Esquire


Yes...I've heard that lagel inmigrant get the change visit a german courses for free (government pays) and in many cases is even mandotory in order to extend visas... so I think it's for their own good...

unless the inmigrants also speak english, in that case there is no need german *lol

reply to post by Maslo

No. Do you believe Europe does not exist?

I see you are too young of mind to understand what I am saying, carry on.

Yes, they are responsible for many damages, even for multiculti and immigration damage, because they are the ones who make laws. I dont blame immigrants - they simply follow the path of least resistance, and if I was an immigrant, I would porbably do the same. I blame politicians too.

It is not just THEM who make laws. Or did you think sovereign nations actually exist? Just as with Europe? Do you realize you are dividing yourself from immigrants once again? It's called a conditioned mind and you have it.

Yes, they are the ones responsible for immigration problems and failure of multi-culti.

No. The ones responsible for the failure of anything are the people who decide to remain ignorant. The ones who won't treat their brother or sister the same because they are from another part of the world. They are as much responsible as you are.

No, its simple economy and statistics. Ratio of educated people above immigrants is lower than in general populace of Europe, therefore the net effect of immigration is lowering average education level, which is national socioeconomic suicide in current conditions - we already have excess number of underqualified people on the job market, even without the immigrants. More uneployment, falling of price of underqualified work, strain on social system.. You name it. I know it may sound harsh for the immigrants, but thats what logic and reality says - net effect of immigration on domestic economy and society is negative.

Again, this argument you offer is the result of a conditioned mind. It holds no ground as you don't posses the skill to relativate far enough, only to the point that you have been taught. It is your good right to be as ignorant as you choose, and it is your good right to have a superiority complex. It doesn't mean you are right and it sure as heck shows your subjectivity.

reply to post by The Revenant


Everything is polarized over the ramifications of 911. If this issue is solved regarding these so-called Islamic terrorist [ whom BTW, as a Muslim, I believe they are dangerous, ignorant, and anti-human, though a miniscule minority in the Islamic world] and the US neo-cons and their international allies aren’t allowed to make it a permanent war, then things may calm down if the dark forces don’t pour any more gasoline on the fire.

Of course that’s a big if since this war on terrorism is a tool of certain interests in the world.

Also, if the Republicans get back in power in the US expect worse to occur in the world for those are dangerous people as dangerous as any terrorist.

reply to post by loveseeker


But if their contributing to German society at a later date i.e. Through taxes, becoming a perminant citizen or taking a Skilled and in-demand job like a doctor etc then its more of an investment on that person, behalf of the goverment.



And what also comes to mind (although unrelated and probably could make a good topic for the ATS skunk works) is how Germany's museums have now started showing collections of Hitler's propagander etc, which is seen as a Taboo subject in their history.
Plus with these storys thats on the BBC's website could strike the cords of certain people in a tune that they may not like or want to hear.

eee.

All this far right BS rising across europe.

Lets hope it doesn't get to a stage where bosnia will become a new reality.

Civil war + genocide will break europe apart.

Originally posted by CaseCloser
The germans should send all useless immigrants back to their home countries,
step out of the EU, so they become independent again and won't be forced to bail out parasitic countries anymore,
and then build up a new strong and glorious world leading nation again, in a peaceful way as a spiritualy evolved nation.
The germans (still) got the potential for that, but they need to rely and focus primarily on themelfs and on their own values in regards to their national matters.

CaseCloser

edit on 16-10-2010 by CaseCloser because: (no reason given)

you know...many people in germany would agree with you here...

problem is...we even not allowed to be proud of our country...we learn in school to be ashamed
and as soon you say: hey people...immigration is a joke..you get a slap and everyone calls you
a nazi...This country going down the drain last years.And all we allowed to do is watching..

reply to post by The Revenant


There is a fundamental obstacle to a successful multicultural society..in any Western country.

And it is simply inequality.

If every nation was more or less equal in terms of wealth, opportunity, social standards, infrastructure levels and a whole host of other socioeconomic criteria, it would work and nobody would think anything of it.

The fact that people migrate from poorer, lower socioeconomic nations to higher status nations is the root of the problem.

It is perceived by Westerners that the worlds poor are swamping their borders in search of a better life.

Nothing wrong with that, if i were in a poor country, i'd probably want to migrate to a wealthy one, where my kids would have greater opportunities for a happy life...but what people would want for themselves and their families, does not always extend to others.

This is where the problems come from.

The wealthy, always view the poor with disdain and suspicion and rally to protect what they see as theft of what is rightfully theirs, by thieving and opportunistic 'lower' status people.

If every immigrant was originating from an equally wealthy country, very few problems would exist with it.

I'm not saying it's the right way to view the world, only that i think it's the psychology behind the resentment of immigration from poor nations.

reply to post by spikey


Spot on!

People blame immigrants yet they don't want to know about the root cause of the problems.

Globalization and capitalism grows stronger in today’s global economic system which successfully transfers wealth from poor countries to rich ones.Plus the deliberate interference by West in poorer nations politically and millitarily to make themselves strong economically.

We can mostly agree to the fact that people migrate due to economic reasons.

reply to post by spikey


Spikey mate - have you been reading "The Spirit Level"?

You're spot on with your analysis - inequality is the bane of humanity. But the crazy right-wingers amongst us would not have the message of the Spirit Level get out there.

Rev.

reply to post by FlyInTheOintment


Your tale of what some Muslims want is not news. Its been widely postulated before, and it is not wrong; except that it is flawed.

From a North American perspective, every group of immigrants has always tended to have large families, when they first get here; and then reality sinks in. No matter their cultural and religious allegiances, almost every parent's prime concern is for their children. The cold hard facts dictate that it is easier to provide the means to success to one child than to ten. Family size decreases with each new generation, as a rule.

I don't think the strategy for world domination by Islam is a realistic plan at all. Selfish wants will outweigh allegiance to the larger cause. It is just human nature. Muslims aren't any different. Their humanness is no less than others.

reply to post by spikey

Originally posted by spikey
There is a fundamental obstacle to a successful multicultural society in any Western country.

And it is simply inequality.

A very valid point. But you can not deny there is also a willful component for many with respect to a refusal to participate in such a society.

I know of many successful immigrants as well who loath this country.

reply to post by FBI 33

Good for Frau Merkel for actually having enough guts to admit what everyone, including myself, are thinking. I know I will get a lot of flak for this, but it's true. The impossible concept of "multiculture" is something that is the root at many violent occurences.

If "everyone" was indeed thinking the same as you, then you wouldn't be getting any flak, now would you?

Obviously not everyone thinks that way. I don't. I moved from a pretty much all white, midddle of the road suburb into the heart of a Middle Eastern area of town. I love it. Its been three years and still I see everyone being nice to each other and getting along (including all the other ethnic and religious minorities here).

What you say is impossible is in fact working just fine here. If it can work here, I would say, why not everywhere? Could it just be that Germans and English are just the most prejudiced and self rightious peoples on Earth; or would that be the Japanese?

Well, sorry for dropping off into negative territory there, but multiculturalism does work sometimes, and when it does it is fantastic!

reply to post by The Revenant

There wouldn't be a problem in Europe if the mohammedans would assimilate into the societies where they choose to live.
I am also wondering where all of this "Islamic solution" talk has come from. This guy is the first person I've heard say anything like that. But if they can't behave like civilised westerners..............

reply to post by SLAYER69

Nor does it mean they can force upon others their former country's laws and traditions simply because they refuse and or are too lazy to adapt.

They can't force their laws or traditons on you, but if they believe through experience that those ways are better than yours they have every right to try and convince you. You might not like it any more than they like your traditions, but the dialogue is legitimate.

They probably immigrated for a better life in terms of higher wages and other material things. That does not mean they have to wipe out any and all of their cherished beliefs that happen to be different from the American norm.

reply to post by The Revenant


If Islam should be allowed in Europe, they should adapt to the culture of the Europeans. No more Burqa. You can not expect to be treated equally with your peculiar religious ritual in plain view. You can not accommodate people who are isolating themselves with the hostile concept of Infidel for anyone who don’t believe in their religion. It is just not compatible.

Why? Because the feelings are mutual. I think Jews had this self righteous attitude also while living in Europe which was basically the reason they isolated themselves and treated as such.

This old religions Judaism, Islam etc which don't make any rational sense should be abolished in the world before we get real peace in this planet.

Multicultural society isn't whats failed. What's failed is community in society.

When you have a community of 10 people, each a different race or religion (though still able to speak the same language), your society won't 'fail' because of the divide. Each person will communicate and deal with each other on a daily basis to keep the society prosperous and functioning. Even if your threw someone with a different language into the mix, if you depend on that person to accomplish a task in the society, you will overcome the language barrier. There is a modicum of respect in smaller communities that you do not find in larger ones.

When the population is exponentially increased, the 'bond' people have with one another is a cultural one of appearance and language only. They do not love their neighbors, or consider the people around them part of their community. The only thing that makes the other person familiar to them is the way they look and talk.

The problem is people are too disconnected from one another. People are not friendly these days, and quick to judge.

Originally posted by tiger5
reply to post by The Revenant

 

Well how much of an effort did th Germans make to have multiculturalism? I know that Britain has tried very hard and is a good example of how ell it can work. It does not mean that there are not a few idiots but they are hell bent on trouble. as a one-time immigrant I now how hard I tried to fit in and how I was blocked by a handfull of biggots but britain is a great place to live for decenthardworking people who wish to obey the laws of the land!

I live in northern England and I do not have any issue with economic migrants, whatever their religion, provided they are not a burden on the State. But I'm surprised that you would say Britain is a good example of how it can work well - in the north west we have 'handed over' whole geographic areas to different religious groups - ie. the local, previously resident population has been 'forced out'. I do not see much integration in the cities and towns I travel to in the north west!

reply to post by DSSONE


You say: " I do not see much integration in the cities and towns I travel to in the north west! "

I am going to be blunt about this. I live in Canada and have bumped shoulders with plenty of ex-pat Brits of every stripe and demeanor. Even the nicest of them seem to have this inbred distaste for people from the Middle East and to a lesser degree, people of other cultures.

That is an observation consistently repeated in my 62 years of life here. I have no explanation for it. It is just so. I completely believe that multiculturism is a difficult thing to accept for most of you there other than a quaint curiosity or source of ethnic "take-away".

Something I am tempted to tell all the Americans on the anti-immigration bandwagon, perhaps YOU should consider returning to wherever it was your ancestors came from. Leave America to the natives and new immigrants who don't have problem with it.

Originally posted by The Revenant


In every country in Europe, we have this debate - is Islam welcome? Can Islam be allowed to co-exist with other religions or cultural dispositions?

To hear it coming from Germany, once again, is just dumb-founding.

We cannot allow the Jewish question to become the Islamic question - let alone the Islamic Solution.

Islam should be welcome wherever and whenever. It should be allowed to co-exist and cohabit in any given free and democratic society.

I'm not aware of the Jewish faith ever promulgating the massacre of all those who don't share their beliefs. Not in the last several thousand years anyway, give or take a millennia.

So can Islam co-exist with other religions or cultural dispositions? Good question, but one you'd have to ask Islam, not those they choose to co-habit around.

Another thing i would like to add before i leave for London.

Some people claim they are only against extremist muslims and their ideoligy, but when you actually look into them properly they are against all the coloured people.The right wingers and nationalists in UK know that they can't openly mouth against coloured people or 'iimigrants' so they are using the islamic extremist card to play their game by changing their approach.BNP and EDL are prime example in UK.