Nazi Atomic weapons in 1943

Originally posted by HattoriHanzou
While you may be correct there, the fact that the Nazis had been cooking up and deploying lots of very highly advanced weapons which, while perhaps not staggeringly successful in terms of damage dealt, were very damaging to morale may have influenced Churchill and FDR.

The allies were aware of every development that the Germans produced, none of their weapons came as a surprise to the allies.

Originally posted by hellobruce

Originally posted by HattoriHanzou
While you may be correct there, the fact that the Nazis had been cooking up and deploying lots of very highly advanced weapons which, while perhaps not staggeringly successful in terms of damage dealt, were very damaging to morale may have influenced Churchill and FDR.

The allies were aware of every development that the Germans produced, none of their weapons came as a surprise to the allies.

This is a pretty bold statement to make without anything to back it up.

Here's an interesting documentary about Japan's atomic effort during the war, including a testament that they were able to conduct at least one test.

Originally posted by paraphi
Sorry to interrupt this love fest / fantasy about NAZI technological prowess, both real and imagined. To go back to the OP.

Originally posted by sy.gunson
It cites a declassified MAGIC decrypt from December 1944 referring to German use of nuclear weapons about August 1943. "Stockholm to Tokyo, No. 232.9" December 1944 (War Department), National Archives, RG 457, declassified October 1, 1978. The decrypt reads:

Trouble is that the above “official sounding” reference cannot be found in the US or UK National Archive. The reference and the subsequent quoted narrative are made up. If anyone can actually reference an official source then one can only conclude someone is trying to sell a book.

Regards

Wouldn't it have been more honest if you had simply stated that YOU could not find it?

First the image of a handwritten front page kindly supplied by my friend William J Pellas
(the original front page is too cluttered to make out properly thus he has hand transcribed the details):

Originally posted by HattoriHanzou
Here's an interesting documentary about Japan's atomic effort during the war, including a testament that they were able to conduct at least one test.

Thanks for that, of course the Norwegian Chief Engineer for Norsk Hydro at Vermork Heavy Water plant, Alf Larsen was spitrited away from Norway to England in February 1944 where he was debriefed by Eric Welsh and gave the Allies their first accurate information about Japan's Atomic bomb project at Konan in Korea.

Now if there was not such co-operation between Nazi Germany and Japan how did a Norwegian Heavy Water plant engineer come to know of this by early 1944?

reply to post by sy.gunson


Thank you for this document. I am glad you saved me the $$$ that it would have taken to get copies from the NARA.

Have you anything to add about the Japanese nuclear program? This information is a lot less widely circulated than Nazi nuclear program information.

reply to post by sy.gunson


I believe that Nazi and Japanese technological cooperation was a lot more widespread than the court historians and their lackeys will have us believe.

The hull shapes of the I-401 sub and the Weller submarines offers a big clue for those with eyes to see.

reply to post by sy.gunson


I haven't heard about activities at Konan, I was under the impression that the Japanese nuclear program was centered around the Riken facilities.

Could you please provide some further information about Konan so that I could read more about it?

I don't know about the credibility of the evidence, nor anything about how to build a nuke... however.. I know Germans are awesome engineers...





If this dude can build this in his back yard... then what can a team of scientists do with the resources of the third Reich behind them and the threat of death for failure?

Originally posted by bigdohbeatdown
If this dude can build this in his back yard... then what can a team of scientists do with the resources of the third Reich behind them and the threat of death for failure?

So what you do here is to present a really big slingshot made by a tinkerer, as a relevant fact to suggest that the Nazis built a nuclear weapon? Please tell me it ain't true...

As to resources... Resources were really scarce in Germany in the second half of the war. Just read up on history. They finally managed to produce synthetic gasoline out of coal, and that's indeed a major engineering feat. But it shows how bad things were. Shortage of spare parts for their tanks and other equipment played a role in their defeat. And then the Allies were quick to discover the synthetic fuel facilities and bombed the hell out of them.

reply to post by sy.gunson


Is it possible that the Soviets obtained some of their nuclear weapons technology from Konan? I am starting to suspect that Julius and Ethel Rosenberg may not have been such critical linchpins after all.

Originally posted by HattoriHanzou

Originally posted by hellobruce

Originally posted by HattoriHanzou
While you may be correct there, the fact that the Nazis had been cooking up and deploying lots of very highly advanced weapons which, while perhaps not staggeringly successful in terms of damage dealt, were very damaging to morale may have influenced Churchill and FDR.

The allies were aware of every development that the Germans produced, none of their weapons came as a surprise to the allies.

This is a pretty bold statement to make without anything to back it up.

Well, we knew about the V1 and V2 years ahead of time, we had a strong suspicion about the V3, we knew about the German jet programme, we worked out their radar systems (sight unseen in many cases I might add) we jammed their navigation beams, spoofed their radar systems and generally mucked them about at every turn. The last year of the war was, from a scientific standpoint, extremely one-sided.

reply to post by HattoriHanzou


Hattori yes but not that I can post today as I am on a public internet facility, but yes in the near future i will as you request post what I know. There is a document which i found for free by Googling but I no longer remember the website where I located this wartime USN Intelligence report asserting that Japan had not only acquired nuclear weapons technology from Japan in 1944 but also that it had commenced manufacture of the V-2 rocket at the Mukden Arsenal (Shenyang) in Manchuria:

German Technical Aid to Japan a Survey,” dated June 15 1945, currently held by Combined Arms Research Library, Fort Leavenworth, Kansas, USA (3-1695-00561-5885)

I would have a hunt for it with Google and you should after arduous hunting find a link to the PDF file. Please post the link here for all of us when you do. I have the PDF file myself but am unsure how to post that on this thread.

Also worth hunting for are the online references to the Soviet garrison commander of Konan, Korea (Hamnung), Maj Gen Shykov and his declassified letters to Stalin about the Japanese atomic bomb project.

Japan abandoned attempts to enrich Uranium 235 and instead switched to a project for the transmutation of Thorium to Uranium 233, using a particle accelerator (Cyclotron) at Konan. The Soviets in fact continued to harvest Uranium 233 there for at least three years after the war shipping it to Vladivostok by submarine.

Uranium 233 harvested the American way from breeder reactors becomes contaminated by dangerous Uranium 232 however when transmuted the Nazi way from Thorium in a cyclotron to Protactinium 233 and promptly chemically separated from Thorium, it is isotopically 99.8% pure and safer to handle than weapons grade Plutonium.

The Japanese feverishly started mining Monazite in Korea from about October 1944. Monazite contains phosphorous and about 7% Thorium and lesser amounts of Uranium. It is often found in black iron sands, which India has in abundance.

reply to post by AngryCymraeg


The fact is that whilst Allied intelligence gave some insights and hints about Nazi technology particularly the famous Oslo letter, the Allies often underestimated Nazi technologies until they were fielded.

The Me262 is a simple enough example that although the Allies were undoubtedly aware of it they were still taken aback by the speed of a swept wing axial flow jet engined fighter, versus the Meteor or the ineffectual Aircomet.

On the other hand they were also anxious about the prospect of submarine launched missiles fired at USA from intercepted intelligence. The fact is there were still surprises and the allies could not anticipate everything in the pipeline. The ALSOS team was sent in to investigate Nazi nuclear technology and did come across several surprises in particular an advanced particle accelerator at Bissingen and a beam weapon (developed by Seimens) evacuated from the burned out laboratory at Dresden, to Burggrub where Patton's Army located it.

Originally posted by buddhasystem

Originally posted by bigdohbeatdown
If this dude can build this in his back yard... then what can a team of scientists do with the resources of the third Reich behind them and the threat of death for failure?

As to resources... Resources were really scarce in Germany in the second half of the war. Just read up on history. They finally managed to produce synthetic gasoline out of coal, and that's indeed a major engineering feat. But it shows how bad things were. Shortage of spare parts for their tanks and other equipment played a role in their defeat. And then the Allies were quick to discover the synthetic fuel facilities and bombed the hell out of them.

So scarce in fact that they mass produced the incredible Me262 in tunnels under a mountain at Khala, an advanced particle accelerator at Bissingen, submarines so advanced (ie Type XXI and XXIII) that they directly inspired submarine development in USA and Russia for decades to come.

The synthetic fuel plant at Leuna was not bombed owing to some sort of gentleman's agreement according to the plant manager that it would not be attacked. The RAF were heavily engaged in the battle of Berlin and bombing cities, when the Americans suddenly changed tactics and went for synthetic fuel plants.

The Germans rebuilt their plants underground but the delay in production output was crucial to losing the war.

Originally posted by HattoriHanzou
reply to post by sy.gunson

 

I haven't heard about activities at Konan, I was under the impression that the Japanese nuclear program was centered around the Riken facilities.

Could you please provide some further information about Konan so that I could read more about it?

The best place to start is read the book "Japan's Secret War" by Robert K Wilcox. Otherwise just Google for a while and you will locate some information. Here is a website I created some years ago which is not updated very often. Probably a bit behind what I know now and hence inaccurate and overtaken by new information.

naziabomb

Originally posted by AngryCymraeg

Originally posted by HattoriHanzou

Originally posted by AngryCymraeg
reply to post by HattoriHanzou

 

Please stop cherry-picking quotes and using sources of dubious authenticity. Can I point out that no credible historian believes that the Nazis had any kind of viable nuclear weapon?

The authenticity of any of these listed sources is best determined by each individual. By making the claim that they are not authentic, without having even read them, you hurt your own credibility.

A convenient list of the evidence cited so far in this thread:www.abovetopsecret.com...

Your judgement of the usefulness of these records is noted, but I hope you have not mistaken your doubt of their veracity for proof that they do not exist at all, which was your claim a bit earlier.

You're repeating yourself now. It's not useful to the discussion.

You are the one hurting your own credibility by insisting that there is a viable historical truth that has somehow been concealed here. I will state this again - not one credible historian has backed this theory. Not one. There's a reason for this - there isn't any evidence apart from baseless speculation.

" - not one credible historian has backed this theory..."

Hahaha that was the same argument used to denegrate historians in the 1970s who pointed out growing evidence that the UK must have been intercepting German codes and cyphers during WW2. The Allies suppressed all evidence for ULTRA (MAGIC) traffic interceptions, until finally in 1978 the British were compelled to disclose the existence of Bletchley Park and GCHQ.

Those same credible historians who denied bletchley Park went very conspicuously silent after the disclosure of Bletchley park and perhaps they are still removing egg from their face.

I tell you what Angry Welshman, why not post your real name here for posterity as one of those credible historians so we can remember you when it is finally proven that Nazi Germany had nukes... Go on I dare you to put your name to your convictions.... Be a man.

I have the guts to post under my real name.

Originally posted by buddhasystem

Originally posted by HattoriHanzou
reply to post by buddhasystem

 

I don't find you to be credible any more. You don't know all the experiments at "CERN" because it is a huge organization with thousands of experiments and programs going on at any time.

a) there are no "thousands" of experiments at CERN. You have not a clue, not in the slightest, of what you are talking about, which does sound silly. Plenty silly.

b) It's indeed a big organization and I know plenty of people there, that covers a lot of ground. It's not so big that it's unfathomable.

c) somehow, you don't have a problem asserting that CERN is a weapons lab, all the while demonstrating ignorance of that organization

edit on 26-2-2013 by buddhasystem because: (no reason given)

CERN was used by scientists as part of a fellowship sponsored by Rand Corporation for the US Air Force to explore the use of antimatter for Fourth Generation nuclear weapons in 1983 and ever since has been collecting antimatter Positrons for use by Los Alamos:

What we were unaware of in 1985, was the fact that since the summer of 1983, the RAND Corporation had been carrying out a study for the U.S. Air Force “examining the possibilities for exploiting the high energy release from matter-antimatter annihilation” [288]. The RAND study was completed in 1984. The version published in 1985 constitutes a serious evaluation of the development possibilities for such an undertaking in view of military applications.

In the beginning of July 1986, we went to Madrid where a full session of the Fourth International Conference on Emerging Nuclear Systems was dedicated to antimatter energy concepts. Four presentations were scheduled by Los Alamos scientists on various aspects of antimatter science and technology. To everyone’s surprise, the Americans did not come. Ten days before the conference, they announced their withdrawal without giving any convincing explanation. The participants to the conference quickly realized that American Authorities had
reevaluated the military importance of antimatter and had probably prevented the Los Alamos scientists from coming to Madrid. This may have been due to the fact that at this same conference we were to present the point of view that the only realistic applications for annihilation energy technologies were in the military domain [290].

Cited from: “The physical principles of thermonuclear explosives, inertial confinement fusion, and the quest for fourth generation nuclear weapons,” INESAP Conference, Shanghai, China 1997, by Andre Gsponer and Jean-Pierre Hurni, Geneva-12, Switzerland (page 118)

Although the original LEAR accelerator was replaced on the same site by the LARGE HADRON COLLIDER power levels are being ever enlarged there and co-operation with Los Alamos continues.

The benefit of antimatter explosions is that they do not produce EMP. They can however be adapted for either Neutron bombs or for blast nuclear weapons.

Whilst a chain reaction in Uranium releases an average 2.5 neutrons per atom, when an antimatter particle impacts one atom of Uranium it releases 16 neutrons (even more so if the Uranium is compressed)

In the following ten years, from1986 to 1996, an enormous amount of research, both experimental and theoretical, was done on the many problems which directly or indirectly pertain to the practical applications of antimatter. In particular, a major issue is the development of simple and compact antimatter storage techniques. For this, two major approaches are being considered. The first consists of making anti-hydrogen by combining antiprotons with positrons. The first atoms of anti-hydrogen were synthesized at CERN in 1996 using a rather inefficient technique [314].21 Large scale production of anti-hydrogen requires the development of electromagnetic traps in which particles of opposite electric charges and very different mass can be stored in the same spatial region. The successful operation of such a trap was first demonstrated in 1995 at Garching in Germany [313]. The next step will be to form solid anti-hydrogen pellets [297] which could be stored and manipulated with the help of various electromagnetic and optical (Laser) levitation techniques. Very high storage densities would be obtained—but only in cryogenic enclosures and extremely good vacuums.

Cited from: “The physical principles of thermonuclear explosives, inertial confinement fusion, and the quest for
fourth generation nuclear weapons,” INESAP Conference, Shanghai, China 1997, by Andre Gsponer and Jean-Pierre Hurni, Geneva-12, Switzerland (pp. 120-121)

What taxpayers funding CERN and the Hadron Collider are unaware of is that this civil facility has an important use for developing nuclear weapons.

reply to post by sy.gunson


It was pretty easy. First result from Google!

German Technical Aid to Japan: A Survey

Originally posted by sy.gunson
CERN was used by scientists as part of a fellowship sponsored by Rand Corporation for the US Air Force to explore the use of antimatter for Fourth Generation nuclear weapons in 1983 and ever since has been collecting antimatter Positrons for use by Los Alamos

How exactly did they "collect positrons"? Why? What is the reason LANL could not produce their own positrons? It's fairly trivial. They are produced easily. I've done it.

Although the original LEAR accelerator was replaced on the same site by the LARGE HADRON COLLIDER power levels are being ever enlarged there and co-operation with Los Alamos continues.

This is incorrect. LEAR was never located in the same ring as LHC, that was LEP. LEAR was converted to serve as an ion injector to the LHC and is no longer serving the study of antiprotons. LHC was never a replacement for LEAR. To say that is plain false. You comment on "power levels" are pretty much word soup. What power? Where? LEAR and LHC are so different machines, there is no point in comparison at any rate.

The benefit of antimatter explosions is that they do not produce EMP.

Care to explain why?

The next step will be to form solid anti-hydrogen pellets [297] which could be stored and manipulated with the help of various electromagnetic and optical (Laser) levitation techniques. Very high storage densities would be obtained—but only in cryogenic enclosures and extremely good vacuums.

Cited from: “The physical principles of thermonuclear explosives, inertial confinement fusion, and the quest for
fourth generation nuclear weapons,” INESAP Conference, Shanghai, China 1997, by Andre Gsponer and Jean-Pierre Hurni, Geneva-12, Switzerland (pp. 120-121)

I looked through that source and didn't find that passage (probably my fault), but anyhow, the current level of anti-hydrogen atom production measures in dozens, maybe a hundred at a time. This is a miniscule number. Its significance for weapons development is zero. You can't call 38 atoms frozen together a "pellet".

What taxpayers funding CERN and the Hadron Collider are unaware of is that this civil facility has an important use for developing nuclear weapons.

You can't be aware of something that does not exist. CERN does not have such use.