Nazi Atomic weapons in 1943

Originally posted by spooky24
he flatly refused to load exploding canisters of sarin gas into V-2 rockets which would have turned Europe into a graveyard.

Not really, during the entire war only about 3,000 V2's were fired, much more explosives were dropped on bomber raids on Dresden in 2 days.... also the allies also had gas, and Germany knew if they used it in V2's they would also get their own towns gassed.

Originally posted by spooky24
Incorrect. The Fuhrer wanted no kind of Armageddon as it would have stained his legacy that he had so careful constructed-and he said as much in his final political testament.

Despite continued urging from Bormann and diehard Schorner he flatly refused to load exploding canisters of sarin gas into V-2 rockets which would have turned Europe into a graveyard.
This was discussed in a private meeting with Schorner and Donitz after the Furher's explosion on April 21st when he discovered he had been lied to about the Steiner counter attack-and declared "the war is lost"

Both Linge and Gunsche told this to their Russian interrogators and the Americans twisted it around to say that he feared the Russians had a secret gas-they didn't. Saying the Fuhrer had any kind of reasonable compassion would not fit the mold so this part of history, as reported in America, is a lie.

Legacy? Carefully constructed? What? Eh? The man's political testament was a rant about communism, Jews and how weak the West was. His legacy was a German that was utterly broken and which hasn't been a threat since then.

It's well known that the Nazis were working on a atom bomb. The allied attack (with huge help from Norwegian resistance) on their heavy water facility pretty much scuttled their entire plan. Most of the scientists that would have helped with the successful development of a Nazi nuclear bomb actually moved to the USA due to the Nazi persecution of the Jews, and ended up working on the American nuclear program instead. German scientists in the 1930's and 1940's were DECADES ahead of their counterparts both in the USA and the UK.

It's also been widely speculated that the Japanese successfully test detonated a nuclear device AFTER their Government surrendered to the allies, just to show that they could, in what is now a remote area of North Korea.

Originally posted by CAPT PROTON
The infamous russian RPG still uses the conical copper cup for its warhead.

Crafty germans, where did they come up with all of this stuff in the first place? I have a squirrely suspicion and it doesn't involve aliens.

Almost the entire AMERICAN nuclear and rocket programs were headed by German scientists, who were decades ahead of their time both in terms of nuclear technology and rocket science.

Many of the principle doctrines of physics that we still use today come from physicists who were trained in German Universities in the first couple of decades of the 20th century.

"But our Germans are better than their (the Russians) Germans" - The Right Stuff.

Originally posted by Lawgiver
this post and the replies are like a freaking physics lesson. i had a few years of physics in college but nothing like this. in the realm of possibility, most people would believe that towards the end of wwii, germany was able to make some headway into a fission based nuclear weapon, a dirty weapon of sorts. wouldn't an experimental explosion be able to be tracked and documented? but back on point. is the issue whether they had or not? or is the real issue that another country with the initials usa provide the technical info to the germans? and the horrific concept of that truth? just saying.

There are a lot of hugely intelligent posters on this site. If you can't understand some of the posts, I'm sure they'd explain them to you in layman's terms. However, I get the impression that much of this thread is ALREADY in layman's terms.

You're correct in one assumption though, an experimental explosion would be pretty easy to detect, even now.

Originally posted by babybunnies

Originally posted by CAPT PROTON
The infamous russian RPG still uses the conical copper cup for its warhead.

Crafty germans, where did they come up with all of this stuff in the first place? I have a squirrely suspicion and it doesn't involve aliens.

Almost the entire AMERICAN nuclear and rocket programs were headed by German scientists, who were decades ahead of their time both in terms of nuclear technology and rocket science.

Many of the principle doctrines of physics that we still use today come from physicists who were trained in German Universities in the first couple of decades of the 20th century.

"But our Germans are better than their (the Russians) Germans" - The Right Stuff.

If you had bothered to read my post earlier in this topic you would have seen that The Germans where not "Decades Ahead" in nuclear technology. The lead country during that time was Great Britain. The Americans could not have built the bomb without the aid of Britain (and also Canada)
I will post the information again so you can read it this time:-

en.wikipedia.org...

Originally posted by AngryCymraeg

Originally posted by spooky24
Incorrect. The Fuhrer wanted no kind of Armageddon as it would have stained his legacy that he had so careful constructed-and he said as much in his final political testament.

Despite continued urging from Bormann and diehard Schorner he flatly refused to load exploding canisters of sarin gas into V-2 rockets which would have turned Europe into a graveyard.
This was discussed in a private meeting with Schorner and Donitz after the Furher's explosion on April 21st when he discovered he had been lied to about the Steiner counter attack-and declared "the war is lost"

Both Linge and Gunsche told this to their Russian interrogators and the Americans twisted it around to say that he feared the Russians had a secret gas-they didn't. Saying the Fuhrer had any kind of reasonable compassion would not fit the mold so this part of history, as reported in America, is a lie.

Legacy? Carefully constructed? What? Eh? The man's political testament was a rant about communism, Jews and how weak the West was. His legacy was a German that was utterly broken and which hasn't been a threat since then.

True, of course. But still, there was a reason it was called the "Third Reich". Hitler had the delusion he would be emperor of the third German (and conveniently Judenrein) empire (Holy Roman Empire, Second Empire 1871-1918).

An interesting thread. Some comments:

1. An undisputed breaking of the Allied Myth occurs in the repeated telegraph records of Japanese requests of war materiel made to Germany in the latter half of 1944 (Ultra #1443).

Things like large quantities (hundreds if not thousands of kilos) of thalium, zirconium, beryllium, lithium and neon gas. Give that Beryllium is both a reflector and a moderator and even as a radiosource, depending on the type application you are dealing with and the U.S. had virtually none of it because we couldn't make the stuff while embarked on a major breeder program, does this mean that the Hanford site didn't exist? The stuff is incredibly toxic and brittle, virtually useless outside the nuclear industry yet the U-873 had 1,402 bars of the stuff onboard when it surrendered on 11 May, 1945.

Other references include Diamond Dies and 'Haspe Kerne' which, properly translated, means Core Clamps. Diamond dies are exactly what they sound like: sub-gem quality stones with holes drilled in them to draw extremely precise diameter wiring through for instrumentation samplers so that you know within a few milliamps how much juice is being passed along them in a radiation intensive environment. These were so valuable that the Germans sent Ju-290/390 aircraft all the way to South Africa to get more.

Similarly, the Core Clamps are used like twist ties to bunch high pressure lines and control cabling in a pressurized water reactor. What the heck are they doing on a 1945 submarine headed from one country to another where neither has a historical functioning reactor program at all?

2. And of course 560 kilos of Uranium 235 on U-234. I say U235 because Uranium Oxide is shipped in paper bags, not gold lined casks and 560 kilos of yellow cake only translates to 3-4 kilos of metallizeable U235.

Whatever it was, Oppenheimer, likely primed by Ultra decrypts, arrived to see the containers opened and promptly hid behind a thick lead shield while the USN ensign who was assigned to 'help' Pfaff, the U-234 executive officer, all but begged him not to kill them all at this point in the war. And Pfaff who should have certainly known better showed no fear as he simply levered open the containers.

Even if you believe in the sub-critical trick to tickle the dragon's tail, the implication that only 560 kilos is somehow useful to Japan when Germany took nearly 3,000 _tons_ of Uranium out of occupied Europe and less than what, 1,200 tons? was recovered, specifically from the rich Belgian Congo mining company holdings is ridiculous, if what was shipped was in fact U-238, then where is the rest of the it?

It's not Thorium or Ionium decay derived U-233 because neither of those substances requires the shielding.

It's interesting to me that people keep comparing and contrasting the validity of the historical contexts between the Bletchley Park effort and the A-waffen/R-waffen efforts as a function of hidden or missing proof of program existence.

We know for a fact that the Allies were so terrified of nuclear weapons on both Japanese and German cargo subs that, from mid 1944 onwards we were actively hunting as many as twenty of them using profoundly 'public' ASW resources ranging from full HK groups to other submarines.

If we knew everything about everyone including Hitler's dining preferences care of the Ultra Enigma and JN27 decrypts, if indeed we -permitted- the Japanese and German telecoms cables to remain uncut so that we could monitor their diplomatic traffic as well, why were we afraid of a non existent nuclear program migrating Eastwards on a non-existent, Abwehr controlled, U-Boat fleet?

I would suggest that the secrecy compromising urgency of the cargo UBoat hunting effort. The huge amount of nuclear materials generated (and still unaccounted for in some cases) and fact that there was a logistical trade in nuclear materials when Japan supplied so little (beyond Korea as a safe final refuge) is your proof.

Hitler had tacnukes by mid 1944. Operation Valkyrie was the proof that Germany Army wanted them as a means to bargain with the Allies -after- DDay. Not as a matter of moral redemption but as tools of real politick. These weapons were not intended to be used on cities, their yields were too low. They were the first stage whose secondary was to be plutonium being bred in wine barrels in Jonastahl.

After his science and engineering advisor Todt told him what they meant, Hitler decided nukes were uncontainable, bound to be abused and thus politically useless. This, according to no less a source than Otto Skorzeny who asked him about them in 1942. It was not until 1943 when Spanish Intelligence started passing data back about the extent of the Manhattan Project and the bombers to carry the weapons, that Hitler changed his mind, too late.

By 1945, with armies on German soil, he did not use the 5-20 weapons he had because they couldn't contain the Allies. He acted with restraint. We didn't.

reply to post by Mists


Nazi Germany had no nuclear weapons.

www.spiegel.de...

reply to post by Mists


I'm sorry? Acted with restraint? Hitler? You don't know much about him do you? As for these 5-20 tactical nukes please provide a scintilla of evidence for their very existence.

Originally posted by Mists
Give that Beryllium is both a reflector and a moderator and even as a radiosource, depending on the type application you are dealing with and the U.S. had virtually none of it because we couldn't make the stuff

What a lot of nonsense -

Between 1942 and 1943, Brush Beryllium Corp. increased production by 45 percent, manufacturing nearly 1.3 million pounds (590,000kgs) of commercial beryllium alloys as US involvement in the war escalated.

metals.about.com...

We know for a fact that the Allies were so terrified of nuclear weapons on both Japanese and German cargo subs that, from mid 1944 onwards we were actively hunting as many as twenty of them using profoundly 'public' ASW resources ranging from full HK groups to other submarines.

Your source for that is....

why were we afraid of a non existent nuclear program migrating Eastwards on a non-existent, Abwehr controlled, U-Boat fleet?

We were not.

Hitler had tacnukes by mid 1944

No he did not - if he did why didnt he use them?

Operation Valkyrie was the proof that Germany Army wanted them as a means to bargain with the Allies -after- DDay.

No, wrong again.

Operation Valkyrie was a German World War II emergency continuity of government operations plan issued to the Territorial Reserve Army of Germany to execute and implement in case of a general breakdown in civil order of the nation. Failure of the government to maintain control of civil affairs could be caused by the Allied bombing of German cities, or a rising of millions of foreign forced laborers working in German factories

.

Nothing to do with mythical German nuclear weapons at all.

By 1945, with armies on German soil, he did not use the 5-20 weapons he had because they couldn't contain the Allie

No, he did not use them as they never existed.

He acted with restraint. We didn't.

Now we know you are just trolling - claiming Hitler acted with restraint!

Too much power!

Hitler And Nuclear Weapons
www.youtube.com...

Hitler's War
www.youtube.com...

Oppenheimer himself said that the bomb was of 'German provenance'. Given the amount of work he put into it, I doubt if this would have been something he would have concluded if it weren't true.

At Farm Hall, 'The Idiot' Heisenberg stated some incredible amount of Uranium based on a simple miscalculation in the radii of distances between nuclei (not all neutrons need to strike all atoms to start an RCR) and Paul Harteck, father of the Centrifuge and one of the few with the insight to attempt a cold reaction so the Uranium Club could go to Hitler and state: "Sir, we have sustained a critical reaction, nukes are possible." -before- Heisenberg all but accused him of treason to strip away his Uranium, came back with a simple formula.

This formula was closer to correct than the one we were using and would remain so until the 1960s and computers.

The translators manning the recorders were flabbergasted.

Nobody has ever explained what the Germans spent 800 million RM on at the Auschwitz Buna 102 plant that didn't produce a pound of synthetic rubber in an industry which Germany led the world in. Paul Harteck would know, he was the chief advisor to the IG Farben efforts there.

No one has ever explained how the Soviets came to hold the keys to the _fusion_ nuclear process, so quickly. In fact, the Soviet observer at Ivy Mike laughed and congratulated us on building the world's first exploding meat packing plant. Manfred Von Ardenne, along with Fritz Houtermans, would know. Since their lab was the one which published the data which first showed the stepped energy conversions necessary to make boosted and then true fusion nukes possible. In 1941. The Russians were so impressed with Von Ardenne's lab outside Berlin that they took him home with them, gave him not one but TWO Stalin prizes for his work in radiomicroscopy and the fusion program, and sent him home where he became head of the largest industrial conglomerate (which basically held together Germany industrial competence in the East) in the state of East Germany. His last wartime project? Experiments on refining Lithium Deuteride from pitchblende.

Patton risked escalation of the war to run some 150nm past the agreed lines of demarcation at the Elbe, all the way to Pilsen to pick up -something- which was then carted away on a lowloader under tarps while U.S. troops stood before the windows of the village and a loudspeaker blared: "People of the Sudetan, your sacrifice has redeemed Germany." General Kammler, 'died' somewhere between Pilsen and Prague, after coming some 300nm from Munich where he was supposed to be in charge of the rocket and jet programs. Pilsen was the home of the Skodawerke 'Black Projects' group which the SS ran as a closed shop in their Reichs Protectorate and which was conveniently close to sources of pitchblende and uranium and of course the Jonastahl and Ohrdruf regions of the Last Redoubt.

Given Hitler did visit this region, very late in the war, for no apparent reason -other than- the weapons test and given that he went back to Berlin when the city was known to be undefendable, something happened.

Bornholm is the reason for his beliefs. Interviews with one of his SS Bodyguards specifically highlights there being 5 bombs stationed on an island in the Baltic Sea.

According to this reference-

WW2 German Hitler's Miracle Weapons Nuclear Third Reich Reference Book
www.ebay.ca...
There were between 20 and 50.

And with the Schuman Trinks approach to sub critical masses, it is doable.

The question then becomes /why/. And the answer lies in the strategic reasoning behind kicking the Western Allies in the teeth when the Germans were terrified of the Eastern Menace during the Operation Watch On Rhine (Bulge) actions and the cryptic statements that Hitler made about 'five minutes past midnight'. As well as their insistence on a 'Northern Redoubt' in Norway.

Because you see, once it became clear that the Germans needed six months to cook up enough plutonium to make city killers work, the Western Allies became the greater strategic threat for the simple reason that, tactically, once they cleared the Rhine and the Western Forests, the North German Plain offered next to no defensible barriers.

While limited battlefield nuclear devices used against maneuver elements in the field simply don't have enough target massing to be viable. Indeed, the most likely response would be 'take no prisoners' as the German population, locked up in Festung cities, were murdered in place by fire raids and artillery.

OTOH, if you ship your heavy strategic nuclear industry overseas to Korea and you parcel out suitcase nuke sized tacticals to Werewolves, now a suicide bomber with a backpack can run into the middle of an Allied occupational garrison and vaporize the threat where it sits in an occupied Germany.

While Japan can hold off the Americans long enough to achieve a 'negotiated' final outcome which (by Hitler's misplaced sense of loyalties) includes an evacuation of German territory.

Which leaves only the Russians to be stopped, not at Berlin's gates, but in Austria, Hitler's homeland. Where 10 tacticals and 2 SS divisions were waiting.

The problem being that SS General Hans Kammler or Werner Voss, head of the Pilsen division, had told the Dulles brothers in Switzerland what was going on and at that point, they had bribed one or both to derail the effort. Kammler was never tried as a war criminal, despite his blatant conspiracy in the Warsaw Ghetto and Auschwitz Expansion as well as Rocket/Jet slave efforts. Voss gave two separate interrogation briefings to the Allies and was told 'Yes, yes. we know, now shut up about it and nothing bad will happen to you.".

The bombs in question were recovered (sent to a different airfield with the same name) and Hitler went nuts, ordering the arrests of Kammler, Himmler and Goering. But it was too late.

You honestly don't have to believe this but it explains why Hitler did not use weapons he knew (160 IQ compared to the bumbing 90 something of the drunkard Churchill) would not save his Reich.

OTOH, the sum of the negative proofs are damning:

1. None of the material related to Jonastahl, Ohrdruf or Pilsen will be declassified for at least another 30 years. Which is pointless if there were only empty tunnels as there were at the Riesse installations further East.

2. The U.S. used nuclear weapons when they didn't have to. Hitler didn't use nuclear weapons when no one would have blamed him if he had.

This atop all the nuclear-only materials openly listed on the lading manifests of the UBoats and in the available Ultra Decrypts (which Groves' _And Now The Story Can Be Told_ makes ZERO accounting for in his 'barely off the ground' explanation of the KWI reactor experiments at Hagerloch...) as well as the extreme measures to which the Allies went to contain them, makes it very clear that we are being lied to.

And the reason is obvious.

If Hitler had the bomb and didn't use it. While the Americans did in flagrant violation of the Hague Conventions on the Laws Of Land Warfare (no civilian targets, no dual use targets without direct, 24hr, warning), the moral equations will flip and it will become obvious that _evil_ in fact won WWII. Which will set The West's self-righteousness hypocrisy back on it's heels as 'Leader Of The Free World'.

Originally posted by Mists
While the Americans did in flagrant violation of the Hague Conventions on the Laws Of Land Warfare (no civilian targets, no dual use targets without direct, 24hr, warning), the moral equations will flip and it will become obvious that _evil_ in fact won WWII. Which will set The West's self-righteousness hypocrisy back on it's heels as 'Leader Of The Free World'.

So all you have is a anti USA rant not based on any facts. The good peace loving Germans and Hitler had nukes but would not use them, but the nasty Americans had them and used them.

Care to state the exact part of the "Hague Conventions on the Laws Of Land Warfare" you claim the bad USA violated?

reply to post by Mists


Who won the war? Mr 160 IQ Hitler, or the drunkard Churchill?

Originally posted by alldaylong
reply to post by Mists

 

Who won the war? Mr 160 IQ Hitler, or the drunkard Churchill?

Are you so sure about that?
Who is in control of Europe and to a large extent the UK?
Many would say Germany, even with-in the UK.
Certainly, it is Germany that appears to have survived the recent financial crisis the best.

Regarding atomic weapons, I wonder what effect the fact that a few if not a lot of the workers were basically slaves and the scientists were working under duress, many being Jewish and some maybe even Russian Jews.

No wonder the Russians were pushing hard to over-run as much of Germany as possible. No doubt they were aware of what might be, as were the US and UK, with people drafted in to mop up the research carried out by the Germans. That, in itself, points to there being some information not then generally known. (This was the starting point of "James Bonds" creators career!)

I have a nasty feeling that Germany was very close to producing some sort of super explosive device, maybe a combination of atomic and fuel air bomb?

The UK certainly had supplies of "Gas" bombs ready for use.

"Towards the end of the war stacks of large bombs were stored at the side of the road on top of the hill. We were told that they were gas bombs."

(People's War site by Helen Avey of the BBC London Team on behalf of Jennifer de Villers.) Unfortunately I have lost the link to the page on the BBC's Peoples War site, I just have a copy of what was written.

Why was that, if not as a retaliation against something? Bear in mind this was to the end of the war, probably when we were on the ground in Europe and the bombs had just been delivered. Germany only had V2's as an offensive weapon and they had very limited success, especially as we were miss informing the Germans of where they were landing and their effect.

Something was happening towards the end of the war, and at that time their were rumors about atomic bombs. Where did that come from? (No provenience, just 2nd hand memories.)

_The Nuclear Axis_, Phillip Henshal:

Pg.51
"It is very expensive and in the 1940s, it was also very rare. In Hansen's definitive book, _U.S. Nuclear Weapons_, he says that the USA would have liked to use more beryllium in its weapons programme, but its scarcity in the USA meant that not until 1946 was Los Alamos able to us beryllium on a large scale in its nuclear weapons and reactor work. We now know where the U.S. beryllium came from in 1945/6..."

_The Nuclear Axis_, Phillip Henshall

pg.163
"The cargo-submarine traffic between Germany and Japan from 1944 to 1945 had become well established, and we know from a German report that for 1944 nineteen boats were dispatched, of which four were missing, five had to return to port and and three had arrived at the time the report was written, 5 January, 1945."

Hitler didn't use his nuclear devices because even a 600m wide blast crater is nothing on the scale of the Bagration and Cobra level breakouts (See: Davey Crocket reports on effectiveness vs. T-55 tanks). He needed weapons which could be made to stopper the output of entire cities and as the video I posted states, he knew that if forces brought such weapons to the battlefield, there would be no end of the destruction imposed across whole countries.

Since his entire aim was to again unite Europe as a nation rather than collective of city states, he could not afford to desolate it.

The /western/ lie about Operation Valkyrie is based upon the absurd notion that 'if the Generals were in charge' someone would negotiate with them and they could then turn their entire war effort to the East. Given that unconditional surrender was already an Allied imperative and had been since January 1943, these generals had no reason to expect better treatment than Hitler had been given at the outset of the war when he offered to return Poland's sovereignity in trade for assured access to Danzig and the security of the German ethnic groups then being persecuted.

It is utterly irrational to assume that, given all that had happened since 1939, that Germany would be allowed to negotiate a surrender or that, knowing what had eventuated from Versailles, they would want to. Nuclear weapons in the hands of German generals as 'demonstration' devices would have changed this, utterly.

Because they would not have hesitated to annihilate London and Antwerp.

In this, it is worth noting that one of the witnesses at the East German tribunal which investigated the Ohrdruf events in 1986 mentioned that his work in the construction of the Hitler Bunker there had allowed him to come in contact with the SS officer there who had stated to him that the nuclear weapons had been available since 'mid 1944' and that this date matches that given by Austrian nuclear physicist Lachner when describing his work with Mache in Vienna.

Here, the lie which is the Allied Myth is not complete because the German Nuke was not built in a bombed out Germany. It was built in Poland, Czecholslovakia and Austria as areas of the Greater Reich no yet subject to constant bombardment. When the Allies twigged to what was happening they shifted to Shuttle Bombing as Operation Frantic Joe and this was so intolerable that, for once, the Germans fought back and utterly obliterated the Allied bomber force by X-Gerate precision night attack.

Hitler did many things, early on in the war which the mad drunkard in England refused to acknowledge. Hitler didn't want England because England and her Navy sat at the heart of a trading Empire Hitler knew he had to have access to if he was to build a nation state. He wanted an opposition, a balance, to set against the growing power of the bankers in America. He also saw that the war in Europe was not a war to defeat Germany but rather, much as it had been in 1914, was an attempt to obliterate the power of a colonial system based on aristocracy and class rule. Class rule collapsed in Europe alright. And it nearly left her in tatters as the drive to a OWG began by eliminating the first of the three super powers. It didn't quite work the first time and so another annihilative extinguishment was necessary. Yet if you want to simply /defeat/ an industrial threat, you turn off the lights, starve the resources and blow the transport. Winning Winnie and Bomber Harris instead began a campaign of grotesque mass destruction. And the result of their evil was that Europe was a U.S. dependent for 5 decades before reunification and the Soviets collapse left just one superpower.

Hitler wanted _none_ of this. Was looking to broker power between nations as continental mass congregates.

And from the way the world looks now, in my country, he was right.

Now you answer my questions:
1. Where are the 2000+ tons of missing Uranium and what about the hundred thousand barrels of waste found
in a German salt mine?
2. Why did Germany need nuclear materials if she didn't have an active program?
3. Why the big ASW effort from '44>?

reply to post by Mists


What are you smoking?

There is not one single grain of evidence that Nazi Germany had any atomic weapons capability. If you think they did then produce the authentic documentation to prove so.

There is not one reason why a nation that had effectively no nuclear weapons program would hide 2,000 tons of uranium ore upon her defeat. Nor have -or spare- several tons of key alloys and high end reactor equipment which they could send onto their one time ally.

I ask -you- to tell me why our government has nothing to say about these obviously nuclear specific materials, the implied Ultra decrypts which would discuss their use, earlier in the war, and the MASSIVE hunt for U-Boats at the end of the campaign in Europe.

If you don't know, at least have the dignity to say so. But ignorance is not evidence.

And if we continue to lie about this, after all this time, it can only be because something _we did_ was so nefarious that we don't want it dredged up.

No government deserves respect that is not willing to be as open about it's own failings as it is insistent upon criticizing others and America is an incredibly judgmental nation.