Nazi Atomic weapons in 1943

Originally posted by Pervius
Lucky they did go through our military bases in Germany before the Russians came through....Nazi nuclear stuff was still being found in the mid 1990's. Almost caused us 'problems' with the START Treaty.

And your source for that claim is....

Germany built the bomb first. They feared the world backlash if they used it.

And they feared no world backlash from invading most of Europe? no backlash for invading Russia? no backlash for the holocaust?

Germany did not build a atomic bomb.

Originally posted by HattoriHanzou
reply to post by alldaylong

 

Wikipedia has "good facts" but not real facts.

However Wiki facts are more accurate than some of the nonsense i have read on this thread. However if you are still not convinced then you can read the documents from the British National Archives relating to The Tube Alloys Nuclear Bomb development :-

discovery.nationalarchives.gov.uk...

reply to post by alldaylong


I was wrong about Churchill not knowing.

I still believe it to be preposterous that Nazi Germany successfully tested a weapon or even any substantial fission chain reaction. I haven't even heard of evidence for a sustained reactor of any magnitude.

Originally posted by mbkennel
I still believe it to be preposterous that Nazi Germany successfully tested a weapon or even any substantial fission chain reaction.

Very true, it is very preposterous.

I haven't even heard of evidence for a sustained reactor of any magnitude.

That is because the Germans and Japanese never built a reactor that could sustain a reaction.

reply to post by mbkennel


British scientists were instrumental in the Manhattan project, The British government pulled resources with the US to speed the building of a bomb.
Under the deal we were supposed to be given access to the research when finished but our good 'friends' refused to give it.
Just how you think Churchill wouldn't of been aware of this I don't know. .

Originally posted by mbkennel
reply to post by alldaylong

 

I was wrong about Churchill not knowing.

I still believe it to be preposterous that Nazi Germany successfully tested a weapon or even any substantial fission chain reaction. I haven't even heard of evidence for a sustained reactor of any magnitude.

Not to split hair, but being able to sustain a chain reaction in a reactor is technically not necessary for building a nuke. It could be an extremely valuable tool to get crucial parameters for the theory, and a way to produce plutonium. However, purely on principle, if one has a way to measure the cross section of nuclear fission under neutron bombardment in the relevant energy range (not saying it's easy, it's the opposite), one can construct a uranium fission bomb w/o having a reactor.

Just saying

reply to post by thumper76

there are a few TV special out there about the latter part of WWII and one has to wonder if the war had went on another year if there would have been a different outcome? The Germans were on the cutting edge of several things and it seems that time and money just ran out.

I seem to recall one such special mentioning they were just two barrels of heavy water shy, in creating their own A-Bomb first, largely due to a team of British special forces sinking a transport ferry from the production facility.

reply to post by sy.gunson

I have not researched further than I did in 1984-5 a story in a BYU US History class told by the son of an OSS officer leading a battalion after D-Day across the Low Countries. It was said the unit captured in probably Antwerp or Bremenhaven 7 German ships each with 2 V-2 rockets. They swept aboard and stopped the Germans from destroying documents. Those indicated targets on every major Atlantic seaboard city with 2 on NYC. They had an expert with dynamite who was trained to defuse V-2 warheads; however the contraption inside their nose cones required sending a message to the US Army HQ for instructions. They got a reply from someone of rank that referenced the Manhattan Project (openly stated) they thought was in NYC that ordered him to quarantine both the Germans and his men, prevent further destruction of papers or devices, detach from his men and move on without them. The son said his Dad thought he would be much less useful but followed orders. It wasn't until the A-home dropped in August 1945 that he realized what he was looking at.
In Washington DC in 1985, I went to the National Archives to inquire about the story. The historian there looked like Thomas Edison and explained he was the foremost historian on atomic history. He dismissed the idea, and showed me a large oversized map book that had every place a part was manufactured for nazi atomic research on it. It looked like the stubble of a man's beard across the map except for a clean shaven lack of dots within 75 miles of the Baltic and North Sea coastline. I innocently asked if the nazis had some rule about not manufacturing anything for atomic efforts within a certain distance of the sea coast. He stood there with hands on hips, jaw hanging down, staring at the map with new eyes, then got irritated saying: They all lied to me, Groves, Oppenheimer, I even have books autographed to me by them, but this means they lied to me. The nazis must have had something in the works and likely did have something being put in readiness along the seacoast.
He asked me to follow-up on the story. I got a list of students of Professor Fox but never made all the calls necessary to re-identify the storyteller as I got into more real time projects. I thanked him and felt bad that I had so disturbed his reliance on those that wanted Americans or Soviets not to know how lucky we have been. Pardon me for only satisfying my own curiosity. From what I learned I conclude that applied technology was nearly completed awaiting parts that were not forthcoming because of the human wave assault on Germany by ground and air to finish them off. Were the National Socialists willing? Yes. We're they ready? Almost. We're they able? This thread seems to debate that but hardware in final assembly is hardware. Better OSS historians and atomic physicists than I, will have to track this lead and cover-up down.
Yes, it's important because our foreheads are targeted today by the Chinese Communists. Americans should not count on the US government continuing to be lucky while it is angering currency manipulators in Beijing by out-manipulating them in DC. The thread's awareness of Japanese atomic development and testing almost not noticed by historians except the Russians, shows how Americans should not underestimate shoestring budgets or seething opponents will to terror. I guess I better go through my storage and find some names. Glad to know some folks find it worthwhile to learn lessons from not telling your own side the long or short odds.

reply to post by Spartacusall


The only problem with that is that neither Antwerp nor Bremerhaven were captured by US forces in 1945. Both were captured by British forces. Oh and there's still 0% proof that the Nazis manufactured atomic weapons.
By the way, why on earth would they have been putting V2s on ships? Hardly the best place to launch from (chances are you'd sink your ship) and why not just launch at London anyway?

Originally posted by AngryCymraeg
reply to post by Spartacusall

 

The only problem with that is that neither Antwerp nor Bremerhaven were captured by US forces in 1945. Both were captured by British forces.

Come on, why spoil a fairy story with facts?

I just wonder why some people want the Nazi's to have built a atomic weapon....

Originally posted by hellobruce

Come on, why spoil a fairy story with facts?

I just wonder why some people want the Nazi's to have built a atomic weapon....

They're probably the same people who claim that the Nazis made flying saucers and were building a moon base...

reply to post by CAPT PROTON


It like ... you never saw a human...

Humans when educated and given the right incentives are capable of fantastic things... well... just look around... notice also the other things that we also think that no human would be capable of and see how easy we also do that kind of thing... There is no need for aliens and gods to justify what we are truly capable of...

Freaking ancient aliens propaganda is getting to my nerves, bunch of loser, liers and defeatist scum with no... well faith... and sense of recognition, responsibility, expectation and admiration for what we are capable of achieving on our own...

reply to post by hellobruce


Actually Bruce yes that story does make quite a bit of sense and is a frighteningly realistic scenario in truth.

I say this because it is well known and ACKNOWLEDGED by mainstream sources that the german navy had successfully tested a towed V2 launch array that could be used by their submarines...

Now setting aside the nukes or no nukes scenario for a minute think about this.

During the last year of the war the Allies had a pretty serious death grip on portions of the altantic. So if you were a german navy desperately trying to score a blow to the United States Homeland what could you do?

Well you could load V2's and the submarine launch pods onto a neutral or even captured Allied flagged vessel and then dispatch several Uboats from disparate ports all with instructions to run the allied sub hunting lines and meet up at a predesignated rendezvous point just outside of the american coastal defensive zone. At which point whichever subs that survived the run could meet up with your trojan horse cargo ship and be loaded with V2 pods!

At this point they could make runs at the coast and do as much damage as possible before getting caught or sunk!

This also makes sense from a strategic standpoint in that if you could substantially damage enough east coast ports you could vastly slow the flow of materiel and men that ALL of the Allied nations depended on! Combine this with some other strategic moves and you could even be in a position to sue for peace!

So yes it does make alot of sense and it's arguments you pose like these that are based in your own ignorance and lack of strategic mindset that make your argument look weak!

Originally posted by roguetechie
Well you could load V2's and the submarine launch pods onto a neutral or even captured Allied flagged vessel and then dispatch several Uboats from disparate ports all with instructions to run the allied sub hunting lines and meet up at a predesignated rendezvous point just outside of the american coastal defensive zone. At which point whichever subs that survived the run could meet up with your trojan horse cargo ship and be loaded with V2 pods!

At this point they could make runs at the coast and do as much damage as possible before getting caught or sunk!

The Germans tried that, and failed. en.wikipedia.org... resulted in the sinking of 5 U-boats.

This also makes sense from a strategic standpoint in that if you could substantially damage enough east coast ports you could vastly slow the flow of materiel and men that ALL of the Allied nations depended on! Combine this with some other strategic moves and you could even be in a position to sue for peace!

Garbage, even with all the V-2's launched against the UK no ports were closed,

An estimated 2,754 civilians were killed in London by V-2 attacks with another 6,523 injured,[37] which is two people killed per V-2 rocket

So yes it does make alot of sense

No, it makes no sense - in fact the V-2

The German V-weapons (V-1 and V-2) cost $3 billion (wartime dollars) and was more costly than the Manhattan Project that produced the atomic bomb ($1.9 billion).[13]:178 6,048 V-2s were built, at a cost of approximately 100,000 Reichsmarks (GB£2,370,000 (2011)) each; 3,225 were launched. SS General Hans Kammler, who as an engineer had constructed several concentration camps including Auschwitz, had a reputation for brutality and had originated the idea of using concentration camp prisoners as slave laborers in the rocket program. The V-2 is perhaps the only weapon system to have caused more deaths by its production than its deployment.[44] "… The V-2 consumed a third of Germany's fuel alcohol production and major portions of other critical technologies:[46] to distil the fuel alcohol for one V-2 launch required 30 tonnes of potatoes at a time when food was becoming scarce

also

those of us who were seriously engaged in the war were very grateful to Wernher von Braun. We knew that each V-2 cost as much to produce as a high-performance fighter airplane. We knew that German forces on the fighting fronts were in desperate need of airplanes, and that the V-2 rockets were doing us no military damage. From our point of view, the V-2 program was almost as good as if Hitler had adopted a policy of unilateral disarmament." (Freeman Dyson)[45]

if Hitler had tested atomic weapons with any success im sure he wouldve done so on a large scale & not held back whatsoever.

Originally posted by NamelessOne
if Hitler had tested atomic weapons with any success im sure he wouldve done so on a large scale & not held back whatsoever.

Yup. Absolutely correct.

Id imagine that with Hitler receiving large doses of Meth (as he is reported to have), that he wouldve bragged about and even exaggerated the hell out of any successfully tested nuclear technologies, which does not appear to be evident whatsoever unless there is something im missing.

It never happened, Hitler had the technology and know how but not the resources. . . Deuterium. Recent tests on Norwegian Deuterium (from intact barrels at the bottom of a lake bed) showed only miniscule amounts of the element and that it would of taken many years at 100% production to produce any viable amount. This never happened due to sabotage by the Norwegian resistance and RAF bombing raids upon the Hydro electric station were it was being made.

The problem I see is a historical one.

The "documents" used KM and Kg for units of distance and weight.
The US military did not begin to use these terms routinely until around the 1970's. During WW2 the US used Miles and Pounds while the Brits used British units predominately.
That being said; the metric system was in use by Europeans during the war so it IS possible that a person MAY have dispatch a message using metric units. But this would be highly unlikely. In order to verify you would have to gain access to other writings by that person and see if they had a habit of using non- US standard measurements in their daily life.

if Hitler had tested atomic weapons with any success im sure he would've done so on a large scale & not held back whatsoever.

Incorrect. The Fuhrer wanted no kind of Armageddon as it would have stained his legacy that he had so careful constructed-and he said as much in his final political testament.

Despite continued urging from Bormann and diehard Schorner he flatly refused to load exploding canisters of sarin gas into V-2 rockets which would have turned Europe into a graveyard.
This was discussed in a private meeting with Schorner and Donitz after the Furher's explosion on April 21st when he discovered he had been lied to about the Steiner counter attack-and declared "the war is lost"

Both Linge and Gunsche told this to their Russian interrogators and the Americans twisted it around to say that he feared the Russians had a secret gas-they didn't. Saying the Fuhrer had any kind of reasonable compassion would not fit the mold so this part of history, as reported in America, is a lie.