A Question for Skeptics and Critical Thinkers

I'm addressing both skeptics and critical-thinking believers because though they may disagree over what the evidence says, they share more in common in terms of outlook and approach towards the UFO phenomenon than they do with cynics and true-believers.

Taking ATS as a microcosm of the wider UFO field, we can see disheartening behaviors and patterns. There is a distrust of and disinterest in science (certainly not something endemic to UFO believers but symptomatic of a larger societal problem), a willingness to accept any claim, complete dismissal of critical thought or any prosaic explanation, a reliance on outmoded and out-dated theories and data, a lack of any desire to explore beyond the face-value, the use of logical fallacy on top of logical fallacy, and belief for the sack of belief. Even on a forum that has a reputation for being skeptics and debunkers (personally, I think we should all wear that as a badge of honor), those who engage in such behaviors outnumber skeptics and critical thinkers.

It seems little ever changes. Question is, are we, as critical-thinkers, making any difference?

The problem with most skeptics is they only accept the probable answer based on current knowledge,some events are beyond what we know .Although their intention is to find a logical answer sometimes you have to look outside the box.Imagine explaining electricity to a old civilisation .Many freethinkers in the past were prosecuted for their "bizarre" ideas.

Originally posted by DoomsdayRex
Taking ATS as a microcosm of the wider UFO field, we can see disheartening behaviors and patterns. There is a distrust of and disinterest in science (certainly not something endemic to UFO believers but symptomatic of a larger societal problem), a willingness to accept any claim, complete dismissal of critical thought or any prosaic explanation, a reliance on outmoded and out-dated theories and data, a lack of any desire to explore beyond the face-value, the use of logical fallacy on top of logical fallacy, and belief for the sack of belief. Even on a forum that has a reputation for being skeptics and debunkers (personally, I think we should all wear that as a badge of honor), those who engage in such behaviors outnumber skeptics and critical thinkers.

It seems little ever changes. Question is, are we, as critical-thinkers, making any difference?

Id say the middle ground makes some difference, id like to think im a critical thinker, I guess I lean more to the believer side of that term, but I take everything with a grain of salt and will never outright say something is or isnt 100% fact.

The problem is, is currently we end up with an almost war like situation between the two extremes where the false skeptics (those who call themselves skeptics but in fact have no desire to learn since for them being a skeptic is to always flat out deny any and all possibility) and the over-believers (those who read something, even something that contradicts something else they pin their belief to and immediately expound it as reality) screaming at each other so loudly that any debate or logical discussion more or less gets drowned out after the 2nd or third page of most long standing threads. The false skeptics enjoy baiting the over-believers like laughing at the antic's of the mental patiences in a 18th century sanitarium and the over-believers are so fragile in their beliefs that they will defend anything to do with their belief from attack regardless of what that might actually mean to their credability...

Hopefully the two extremes will blow each other away in time, and for a time us middle grounders can get back to what it was like a few years back... everything runs in cycles, just gotta wait out the storm. Skeptics and Critical-Thinkers learn from each other... the two far extremes can do no such thing, and often than not simply dont want to any way.

Only thing we can do is give our opinion, fight our corners if required and hope someone gets something out of it.

All believers need to look at things with a Skeptic eye, and the reverse is true for skeptics, they need to look at things with at least a little imagination and 'what if' from time to time.

reply to post by DoomsdayRex


What sort of difference might we make?

I don't think that the thoughtless idiots are likely to be changed for the better by our clever arguments about flying saucers vs chinese lanterns. I also don't think that that's why anyone is here. Unfortunately the lowest form of human communication that you will find, you will find on internet forums. ATS is good because we somehow (with the help of the staff) maintain a decent percentage of people who are interested in, and capable of, having intelligent discussions.

I'm here because it's fun to talk about the stuff that people talk about on here. I like to debate and I like to put my thoughts into words and I like to hear what people think about topics that interest me. I also like learning about paranormal stuff. I'm certainly not here to make a difference. This isn't the place to be bringing about social change or inspiring the youth, and it's not likely that either side - believer or skeptic - will win over the other side one thread at a time on ATS.

Which brings me back to original question, what sort of difference-making do you have in mind? Deciding the battle of skeptics vs believers? Or promoting critical thinking over thoughtless belligerence?

That, is a very interesting question!

My answers can be summed up in this heartwarming little video:

www.youtube.com...


It changed my life ---- I hope that it can change yours!

Originally posted by DoomsdayRex
Question is, are we, as critical-thinkers, making any difference?

We used to but there's so much b$ here now that it's not worth it anymore. The idiots are taking over

reply to post by DoomsdayRex


After the numerous threads on the supposed New York city UFO's I would have to say a big no...

People who go into those threads and use critcal thinking and logic and try to explain what is being seen get ridiculed for being a debunker as I was one of those ppl...I do believe we are being visited as some of the UFO cases of the past are very interesting. But this New York city nonsense makes me believe that all critcal thinking has gone out the window lately here on ATS. Anyways nice thread though

reply to post by DoomsdayRex


I'm addressing both skeptics and critical-thinking believers





You forgot a category - the critical thinking skeptic...


As to the rest, you're spot on as usual - though wearing the skeptic badge isn't something everyone should wear, but rather appreciate and incorporate that mindset into the formation of their own opinion...


Otherwise Doom, you may come off like you have an agenda...but hey, you gotta be you, right..?

Originally posted by DoomsdayRex

It seems little ever changes. Question is, are we, as critical-thinkers, making any difference?

This is why I limit myself to posts about ancient history, for the most part.

I long ago gave up trying to reason with people that see an airplane and cry "Disclosure!!!"

Harte

The trouble with skeptics is NOT that they are closed minded or won't accept the logical answers.

Skeptics want to see undeniable proof before they will admit that something is true. They are generally very open minded to new ideas, they just want proof.

Some skeptics are skeptical about everything, others are only skeptical about certain topics. In all cases however, skeptics want to see proof and refuse to believe based on questionable science or faith alone.

Once you've found multiple proofs from multiple sources, skeptics will generally buy in to whatever idea you're trying to sell.

Sadly, I doubt skeptics/critical thinkers are making a huge dent.


Case in point: This thread

Originally posted by cripmeister

Originally posted by DoomsdayRex
Question is, are we, as critical-thinkers, making any difference?

We used to but there's so much b$ here now that it's not worth it anymore. The idiots are taking over

Does that just mean we give up?

Originally posted by facelift
You forgot a category - the critical thinking skeptic...

I didn't forget. Critical thinking skeptic is redundant. If they deny for the sake of denying they are a cynic or a denialist, not a skeptic.

Originally posted by facelift
As to the rest, you're spot on as usual - though wearing the skeptic badge isn't something everyone should wear, but rather appreciate and incorporate that mindset into the formation of their own opinion...

It wasn't the skeptical badge I said we should wear proudly, per se, but rather the reputation we have for critical thinking.

Originally posted by facelift
Otherwise Doom, you may come off like you have an agenda...but hey, you gotta be you, right..?

I have no problem with people having an agenda or others thinking I have one. If anything, we should all have an agenda to find the truth. And having an agenda does not automatically equate to being wrong.

reply to post by DoomsdayRex


Critical thinkers, yeah that is what makes us such targets by TPTB.

Originally posted by Mr. D
Critical thinkers, yeah that is what makes us such targets by TPTB.

Could you be a bit more specific?

reply to post by DoomsdayRex


I heard in my youth someone say (I can't honestly remember from where I got it) that Ufology is the modern society religion. The reasons are actually very simple.

In religion, people believe in a being that you can't see or even prove his existence. You have stories, ancient books, some events here and there, and people blindly believing in the people who take profit from religion, the ones that control what kind of information is given, their social image, and so on...

In Ufology, people believe in beings that we don't even know if they exist (and I'm not talking about the possibility of their existence, just the possibility of them visiting us), using ships and technology that we have never seen (and if someone points out that we are using theirs...well...There is no proof, is it?).

Again, like religion, we are "forced" to believe (or at least contemplate) stories of people who talk to "them", who saw "them", and so forth... And the "proof" or evidence that so many post around here, claiming it as the truth, is as useful as a video of a buddhist statue crying milk or blood.

More and more, the feeling that I have looking at "proof" labelled as such in ufology, is the same one that I get when I see one of those pictures where Jesus shows his face in a toast, or the Virgin Mary in the reflexion of a window. Usually a facepalm and laughter follows.

To me, Ufology is becoming a sort of religion. The escape that some people use to run away from mundane ways of living, dreaming and hoping, and wishing for something better. I seriously count the days until people start praying to the aliens, and looking at some cults, I don't even have to anymore.

For instance, why do new religions rise and fall? Because they appear, they gather people, and then someone shows up and starts changing the collective mentality. "You must think this", "you must do that", "you must believe in this, or you're a fool", "open your eyes", etc...etc...

Usually, a new mass religion rises, spiting in the religion that it wishes to replace in society. It happened numerous times along History, and it's so obvious that I'm sure someone like you understands what I'm saying with this.

So, I answer your question with another. Has reason, logic and true knowledge ever stood a chance against religion? I know this guy, named Galileu, that doesn't think so.

If Ufology is becoming some sort of modern religion, replacing religion in an age where people stopped believing in a big guy with white beard, will we (those who actually want to find the truth, and not a "truth" that satisfy us) stand a chance? Sadly, I don't think so.

I think that what you see here on ATS is people's beliefs get reinforced by certain posts. If you're predisposed to believe something, and another report comes in that affirms your belief, then people will support that report with little evidence.

Critical thinking is necessary for this site to exits. It reigns in the way out ideas and keeps some speculation within reasonable limits.

Keep being a critical thinker.

Originally posted by DoomsdayRex
It seems little ever changes. Question is, are we, as critical-thinkers, making any difference?

I, for one, like to find the truth behind everything.. while common sense says one thing, sometimes is impossible to use it because the situation is uncommon. Using logic and common sense in some situations is irrational due to the fact that the event or occurrence is so unbelievably improbable that logic and common sense don't apply. Let's talk about numbers: Using logic and common sense applies to almost everything, making the usage of both a "most probable" response, using them gives us the advantage on probability (I'm just throwing a guess here, but about 90% I would say) but the sum of different improbable occurrences, makes the usage of common sense and logic less than 50%, making the "most improbable thing" become the "most probable thing" (Referring to the supernatural particularly). I believe is important to have an open mind, and realize that sometimes, it doesn't matter how far fetched the idea is (unknown/supernatural/etc), there's a moment where IT COULD happen. I believe being a close minded person, deny everything, even if they are facts, and apply logic and common sense to everything is wrong. History has showed us and proved us in the past that the overuse of common sense and logic stupify us. (World is not the center of the universe, world is not flat, etc etc.)


OFFTOPIC NOTE:
stupify is not a word? wow


EDIT: I just noticed I replied with a (rant?) and never actually answered your question, LOL

"Question is, are we, as critical-thinkers, making any difference?"
I don't think much, because the not critical thinkers most often see a wall of text, and don't read it... they mostly read the posts that have just 1 or 2 sentences on them.

I think critical thinkers and skeptics are making a difference.
i joined this site a year ago to post on a topic in this forum about a ufo that opened a portal over mexico and released spheres. it was very similar to a dream i had previously and when i saw the video i had to join and post. i had been following the crop circle threads as a lurker for a while. in that thread i was so certain this was a UFO, but through the critical thinking and rational explanations of people like the most detested and hated Phage i was able to see that i was acting irrational and just really wanted to see another ufo like one i saw some 5 years ago. I know what i saw, and i know what happened before and after i sighted the UFO. but since then ive been searching for some proof since all i have is my word and confirmation that a helicopter was flying alongside our car afterwards from a friend. If it wasnt for phage and the others like him i would prolly be in that "UFO's over NYC" thread as one of the believers and not as a voice of reason. If phage could help me see what i was becoming then im sure i can help someone else see that they are going over the deep end and need to dial it back some and think hard about it.

I dont agree with whoever said that religion makes people willing to believe anything and that "UFO'-ology?" is becoming a religion. I think this is just a first step to an awakening. You have to take what you know and challenge it, find whats real, only when will you make your way out of the darkness and into the light of reality. Sure some religious people are indeed crazy, they claim to see and hear things from god. there is a god, but he cant be seen, or heard. he does communicate with you, but not in words. some people are actually getting messages from god but dont know what they are yet because they arent using their logic to weed out whats false. others are just pretending so that they can either fit in or gain leverage over the ones who dont know god is talking to them. people who truly know god are not fooled so easily.

The only real, true problem I see here these days is that no one is willing to simply say...

"I don't know."

Everyone has their beliefs and ideologies, but no one wants to compromise anymore.
We've lost any and all objectivity these days, be it skeptic, believer, debunker, critical thinker or what have you.