Religion. Verifying Your Sources.

This thread is sort of a continuation of a previous thread that I wrote, and then it got bounced around by the mods and eventually closed.

I think that this is a very serious situation, that keeps the divide between the religious and non-religious. That is usually overlooked. Here is a quote from the other thread.

Now this isn't about debating religion. Due to its many different aspects. But to actually discuss the "act" of translating and using the words from the bible as a legitimate source. As it has 100's of different translations, sources, and its validity has been in question for countless years.

While it divided our people and our world, we never truly question or debate those who choose to use it as if it were 100% proven to be true. And those that question its validity are debated. If you were to actually use the words of the bible in a court of law it would be considered hearsay.

I think that those that choose to use this form of proof for their religion, should be required to link more sources. Other versions, and can and should be called on it, due to the many inconsistencies that have been proven about these particular source/sources.

I was given an answer to the question by a mod and this is what was said by greeneyedleo.

Going forward, if you post something that is not 100% your own writing or work you must use the EX TAG, post NO MORE THAN 15% of the original (or three paragraphs, whichever is least), and GIVE A LINK TO THE SOURCE MATERIAL. If the work you are posting is not on the internet, from a book for example, you MUST give a credit for that Book ( the title), its Author and Publisher.
Very clear. All text that does not belong to the member must be put within EX tags and properly sourced. This includes religious text.

Now with that said. My question based on the posts that I received at the original post, is why would someone get offended by being asked to give such information. I would assume that everyone who reads and owns a bible knows that it has a publisher, the books have authors, and due to different versions by different denominations sometimes the title is different.

Now based on the bible that you own, of course these publishers may change, but in all fairness, there are hundreds, possibly thousands of articles and books that say that the bible is either false, or misinterpreted. Now just stating that the bible is based, or inspired by god, does not mean that he is the author.
Basing a belief system on a book, words, or message is one thing, but not having "self " interpretation is something completely different.

This is not a thread based on who's religion is right or wrong, or whether or not religion is right or wrong, but on the book that represents those who choose to follow the words of man, inspired by god.

Rupert Murdoch currently owns the publishing rights to the New International Version Bible, and also the Satanic Bible.

In 1988, Zondervan became a division of HarperCollins. If you visit online at Harpercollins.com, you will find some very evil books for sale that is published by this company. For example many pro homosexual titles. And amidst these evil books, we find the Satanic Bible. The foregoing is excerpted from 'Satanic Bible' by Anton La Vey. All rights reserved. "No part of this book may be used or reproduced without written permission from HarperCollins Publishers, 10 East 53rd Street, New York, NY 10022". Notice that HarperCollins not only publishes homosexual books, they publish the Satanic Bible. Zondervan is a subsidiary of HarperCollins, which is owned by News Corp, which is owned by Rupert Murdoch. He is one of the biggest producers of worldwide pornography on the planet. And his company, Zondervan, holds the exclusive publishing rights to the New International Version Bible. Although the NIV copyright is held by the International Bible Society, Zondervan has exclusive publishing rights. No one can publish more than 200 words of the NIV Bible legally without first getting permission from Rupert Murdoch. Rupert Murdoch also owns 20th Century Fox, all Fox channels including Fox News, Simpson cartoon Show and Direct Tv. He also owns much more than I list here.

One of the Other Divisions of Harper Collins is a company called Samuel Weiser. The occult publishing company Samuel Weiser are the copyright holders (along with some of OTO) of many of the writings of the Satanist and Demon-possessed Aleister Crowley.

cantontruth2.blogspot.com...

The reason that I brought up the NIV, is because it is currently one of the best selling books, especially to those that have a hard time understanding the older translations, and is mostly brought by young adults looking for an easier version.

Alot of the time, religious discussions are often fought over, based on validity, and authorship, its kind of difficult to argue over such things when this type of information is known. With the above said, I feel that is fair to ask someone who quotes the bible both, if they are aware of who published what they preach, and if they are aware that it may not be correct.

Though this is a sensitive subject, it is also of awareness of ones learning and teaching to others and being aware of who and what you represent. We live in a world of falsehoods, and misinformation, and opening ones mind to this type of information can be both upsetting and scary.

Please there is no reason for bashing, for those who choose to look into this or not. But there has to be an equal stance on this. Not everyone that disputes the bible is disrespectful or a ill informed, but it may be someone that is aware of the business part of the religious industry.


Peace, NRE.

Its not a sensitive subject.

The trouble with religion is that the people following it expect the the rest of us to believe their nonsense straight of the bat without any actual proof.

I always ask Christians this. the whole bible and the whole of their religion focuses around one event. Christ rising from the dead.

IF Christ never rose from the dead then everything is false. EVERYTHING. So I ask them this.

Prove tome Christ rose from the dead. Guess what? They throw a mass s***fit and go all red in the face. Still after the dust settles. NO proof. And I go on with my life happier in the knowledge I am not easily manipulated, and that I am not bound by the limitations of society and their mumbo jumbo.

One of the rights accorded to the owner of copyright is the right to reproduce or to authorize others to reproduce the work in copies or phonorecords. This right is subject to certain limitations found in sections 107 through 118 of the copyright law (title 17, U. S. Code). One of the more important limitations is the doctrine of “fair use.” The doctrine of fair use has developed through a substantial number of court decisions over the years and has been codified in section 107 of the copyright law.

Section 107 contains a list of the various purposes for which the reproduction of a particular work may be considered fair, such as criticism, comment, news reporting, teaching, scholarship, and research. Section 107 also sets out four factors to be considered in determining whether or not a particular use is fair:

1. The purpose and character of the use, including whether such use is of commercial nature or is for nonprofit educational purposes
2. The nature of the copyrighted work
3. The amount and substantiality of the portion used in relation to the copyrighted work as a whole
4. The effect of the use upon the potential market for, or value of, the copyrighted work

The distinction between fair use and infringement may be unclear and not easily defined. There is no specific number of words, lines, or notes that may safely be taken without permission. Acknowledging the source of the copyrighted material does not substitute for obtaining permission.

U.S. Copyright Office - Fair Use

On Topic:

My question based on the posts that I received at the original post, is why would someone get offended by being asked to give such information.

More than likely, if they did so, (eg; quote from Mormon bible) they are afraid being linked to, or getting negative comment about their chosen path.

For some faiths, there should also be an agreed upon acceptance of the 'Most Valid' translations.
Eg; A lot of anti-islamic threads throw quotes from english translations of the Quran which are NOT valid, and are not considered valid translations by those of the faith..

I* think most muslims would agree that the #1 English translation of the Qur'an would be:
1. "The Message of the Qur'an" by Muhammad Asad**.
2. 'The Qur'an' by Yusuf Ali.
3. ...
nn. ALL muslims who can read Arabic, ALL read the ONE Version of the Qur'an.

The Jewish Tanach has pretty much the One Version as well. Each letter is checked and counted.

Perhaps if ATS ran some threads (in the religious forums) to get a majority consensus on accepted references which could be referred to in the very heated threads..... (ATS Reference Library?? ATS Reference Links).


*I am not a muslim BTW. Have read NT and various translations of the Tanach & Qur'an. - The closer to the original source the better.

**Muhammad Asad was a Jewish Journalist who traveled and wrote extensively in the ME. Became a muslim, and went on to aid in the foundation of Pakistan, he also worked in the UN.
His autobiography is a great read.

question?-if I heard an audible invisible voice as if sitting beside me one night that said -"I am Jesus, I died for your sins believe in me and you will never perish" when I had just begun to open the cover (before reading anything) of a small green (pocket size) Gideon NT that a woman had left on the kitchen bar a few days earlier, whose words would you say those are? do you find Jesus scary? if so why?

you definately come across more sincere in this thread as in a quest for truth and can appreciate that and the info

I don't see why this is an issue. One is allowed to quote from books, whether or not they are "factual" or not. Being "factual" or "accurate" or "proven" is not a REQUIREMENT for posting something from a book on ATS.

What IS a requirement, as mentioned before, is posting it in EX tags, and perhaps, referencing it with a book and verse number. If you want to be really nice, you could also post the name of the translation (KJV, NIV, etc).

reply to post by babloyi


not so sure-what if I said my name's Johnny and it might be a sin? it's just a memory from a song

if I typed from memory-
the time is coming and has now come when the dead will hear the voice of the Son of God and they who hear will never perish-now I know those words originally are attributed to Jesus from John and pretty much is verbatum across the board in many different English translations, so would'nt it just be a courtesy to reference and if not someone could always just ask if interested where that came to mind from? or who told you or said that originally? was it a preacher? TBN? Daystar? brother? neighbor?

reply to post by Rustami

Hey Rusty! Fancy seeing you here!

Well, personally, when someone quotes a verse from the Bible, I like to go check it myself, so a reference is always helpful. Otherwise I have to go to google or biblegateway and type in the words you said, and then look for it. If I remember correctly, in our previous conversations, the most you did was post the name of the book and the chapter? More would definitely be helpful, and result in smoother communications.


PS: Memorising such a large amount of the Bible is really an amazing feat!

reply to post by NoRegretsEver
NoRegretsEver,

Man thinks he is so smart but he still has not created life or anything, all he can do is work with the "scratch" that exists. It was said by the high tech boys more than 10 yrs. ago that they would be able to create life from scratch in two yrs., well it hasn't happened yet and it never will. Life is Spirit and that is something that they can't create or put together even from the scratch that exists. When they come up with their own scratch then I'll pay attention. It is not rational that everything come about by happenstance. The brain of man, woman is beyond just happening as a starter to think about. Is there a master intellegence behind all of it? All I got to say it is like the saying says, "To soon old and too late smart". If we are going to have no regrets we need to get it straight right now or we will have real heavy regrets.

That Old Bible proves it is True and it proves the God who put out the prophecies and the Redeemer He gave because of those prophecies which prove it. The KJV came from the best manuscripts if you ever become interrested.

It is the foundation and fountain to man for Truth, and He declares "My Word is Truth"

Truthiron

reply to post by babloyi


hey babloyi, I normally try to reference as much as possible to speed up anyone wanting to verify but it is generally pretty easy to tell if the pasted or typed memory which matches generally or exactly some scriptures somewhere if I should fail to reference (hey I know-I'll just start typing and say "it is written" a little leg work never hurt anybody, lol), for instance in these two does'nt the NLT paint a clearer picture even though they're the same?


And that because of false brethren unawares brought in, who came in privily to spy out our liberty which we have in Christ Jesus, that they might bring us into bondage: 5To whom we gave place by subjection, no, not for an hour; that the truth of the gospel might continue with you. -Galatians2.4 King James Version

Even that question came up only because of some so-called Christians there—false ones, really—who were secretly brought in. They sneaked in to spy on us and take away the freedom we have in Christ Jesus. They wanted to enslave us and force us to follow their Jewish regulations. 5 But we refused to give in to them for a single moment. We wanted to preserve the truth of the gospel message for you.-New Living Translation

is it Jewish blood that's the concern here or the difference between good and bad news?-

But there rose up certain of the sect of the Pharisees which believed, saying, That it was needful to circumcise them, and to command them to keep the law of Moses. And the apostles and elders came together for to consider of this matter. And when there had been much disputing, Peter rose up, and said unto them, Men and brethren, ye know how that a good while ago God made choice among us, that the Gentiles by my mouth should hear the word of the gospel, and believe. And God, which knoweth the hearts, bare them witness, giving them the Holy Ghost, even as he did unto us; And put no difference between us and them, purifying their hearts by faith. Now therefore why tempt ye God, to put a yoke upon the neck of the disciples, which neither our fathers nor we were able to bear? But we believe that through the grace of the LORD Jesus Christ we shall be saved, even as they. -Acts15

I have a few different versions I pick up now and again but I really dig my Net Bible . bible.org... It seems to be a good translation with good foot notes ..anyone familiar ? peace

just to make clear since motivations are difficult to express via net, when I say scriptures come to mind, sometimes it may be only a word so I search for phrases with those words, example- yesterday there was a ring of fire in the Sun thread and the first thing that came to mind was Ring Of Fire by Johnny Cash so I posted song just for grins instead of information and funny enough turns out as somone else mentioned it was from Sun Records-lol

later went and looked through alot of scriptures to find anything, due to the subject being interesting and did find some scriptures that kinda relate in some way with a few being a little too close for comfort and seeing how (best I can determine) somewhere in the 55-70% (not sure of other nations % but surely a good portion of Europeon and quite a few others) of America profess a belief in Jesus as The Messiah/Son/King/Ruler/Master/Lord/Christ and firstborn from the dead from among many brothers so it just seems like beneficial information amongst family to me

For God did not send his Son into the world to condemn the world, but to save the world through him.-John3.17