Vet charged with theft for removing tattered American flag he found offensive

Vet charged with theft for removing tattered American flag he found offensive

www.orlandosentinel.com

Karl Edward Baldner didn't like what he saw, a tattered and torn American flag flying from a small business across from the Goldenrod Post Office just east of Winter Park.

The U.S. Army veteran strongly believes the flag should be displayed properly and in the summer of 2009, took it upon himself to let the business owner know the beat-up old flag ought to be taken down. When it was not, Baldner decided to remove it himself.

Baldner said he intended to replace the flag with another one that had been draped over a fallen soldier.

(visit the link for the full news article)

This makes me sick, America has truly become a police state. It is extremely disrespectful to fly a tattered American flag and this guy faces criminal charges for taking matters in is own hands I hope a good attorney takes this guy case. Mr Baldner is not backing down, ""Yes, I would go to jail for my flag!" he said. While he is not exactly a model citizen, I do respect the action he took.

www.orlandosentinel.com (visit the link for the full news article)

1. it wasn't his flag to remove
2. he didn't ask if he could remove it
3. he didn't replace it with a shiny new flag.

It's theft, plain and simple.

What is wrong with this country is all the jackholes that think they are entitled to take matters into their own hands, simply because something offends them.

my 2-cents

While I strongly agree with the soldier's stance on the tattered flag, namely that it should be taken down and replaced with a good flag (UNLESS it had some sort of significance, battle damage flag or whatever, but this wasn't), I do NOT agree with his actions. He does have to respect the property of another person.

What I think the best option is in fairy tale America: Take this matter to the local community meeting (if there is such a thing) and decide as a group. It's a small issue and shouldn't take long.

I firmly believe there has to be consent, either from the owner or through the majority vote of the community officials.

The soldier also could have returned with the flag he intended to replace the ragged one with and asked the shop owner once more.

America has gotten WAY too sensitive. Too many people haven't noticed that their society is not as immaculate and 'golden' as they believe it to be.

This issue can be seen in the majority of articles posted here on ATS. The problem's root finds itself in the government. (Which can be discussed in one of the many threads dealing with that particular point)

I agree that he should have replaced an new flag, he went about it the wrong way but have a little respect for your country's flag if you choose to fly it. It seems like him and the owner had a little history and neither backed down.

When I first read the title I thought it meant a Vetinarian...

Surely if he was that "offended" (He is supposedly a war veteran, so should have thicker skin), he should have simply brought a replacement flag to the shop and offered to hoist it for them. Beyond that, it wasn't his property to remove or otherwise interfere with.

I never understand this fixation with the flag that Americans seem to have. You get so wrapped up in "patriotism" that people end up being arseholes to each other.

If the shop in question wanted a tattered flag, that is their perogative, for crying out loud. What if they wanted to fly another flag, say a Russian one or Chinese? What would the moron done then? Or perhaps a tattered pair of Y-fronts! It's their shop, they can fly what they want (within reason)

It's a piece of cloth for heavens sake!

If you read the article is states the 'vet' is mentally unstable. This issue could have been handled better, but I think the man in question being charged with a crime is pushing the issue. The courts do not need this burden.

If we, as a people, have not yet moved past the attachment to a piece of colored cloth, well then, we've got a long road ahead of us.

I understand this man is a veteran and that the beat up flag is offensive, but come on man, it's a flag. We should really start to educate our children on what is truly important. Does a mass-produced, synthetic flag, made on an assembly line really represent who you and I are? That is an incredibly pathetic point of view.

With that being said, actually filing charges against the old man is stupid. A waste of our already overcrowded judicial system's time.

reply to post by jrod


Here's a link to United States Title 4 Chapter 1, the laws pertaining to the flag.

Specifically:

The flag, when it is in such condition that it is no longer a fitting emblem for display, should be destroyed in a dignified way, preferably by burning

~Heff

Originally posted by Hefficide
Here's a link to United States Title 4 Chapter 1, the laws pertaining to the flag.

...those are not laws... those are protocals... big difference...

...if someone wants to argue that those are indeed enforceable laws - they need to take it up with the bush/cheney regime, who are the ones that started this fly the flag no matter what fascist crap...

...as for the vet in question - what he did is a minor theft offense and shouldnt be treated as anything other than that...

...maybe the owner of the business will be the bigger person and just let it go - or - maybe he'll be the typical jerk and push it to the Nth degree for publicity's sake...

reply to post by Wyn Hawks


From my source, quoted directly:

The laws relating to the flag of the United States of America are found in detail in the United States Code. Title 4, Chapter 1 pertains to the flag; Title 18, Chapter 33, Section 700 regards criminal penalties for flag desecration; Title 36, Chapter 3 pertains to patriotic customs and observances. These laws were supplemented by Executive Orders and Presidential Proclamations.

Notice the word "laws".

~Heff

Originally posted by jrod


This makes me sick, America has truly become a police state. It is extremely disrespectful to fly a tattered American flag and this guy faces criminal charges for taking matters in is own hands I hope a good attorney takes this guy case. Mr Baldner is not backing down, ""Yes, I would go to jail for my flag!" he said. While he is not exactly a model citizen, I do respect the action he took.

www.orlandosentinel.com (visit the link for the full news article)

This makes me sick, America has truly become brainwashed by nationalism. It is extremely silly to worship colored cloth on a stick as if it was the prophet muhammad in distress.. lol

reply to post by jrod


When you refer to a 'Police State', do you refer to the disgruntled former service man who stole an American Flag from a store owner, or the store owner who didn't want to change the flag?

The police or system who is following through on the charges. At best this is a civil case, and like I said this case should not be a burden on the court system like it has become. The disgruntled Vet was out of line and could have found another way to get the flag replaced, but I too find it disrespectful that someone would continue to fly a tattered flag.

I have always heard the codes of conduct for the U.S. flag as laws although they do not appear to be inforced. It was wrong for them to display a symbol of our country in that way. To show disrespect to those who have given their lives for this country. I do agree he should of replaced it right there but the owner of the flag should of given it to an organization that retires flags. I was in the Boy Scouts and was a part of many flag retirings.

reply to post by Hefficide


Apparently (and this coming from a Brit so you really should know better) but these "laws" you quote not only lack penalties for violation of them, but are not actually enforceable because of a Supreme Court decision citing that it would be in violation of your First Amendment rights. There would have to be an amendment to the Constitution of the United States for it to be enforceable and punishable.

It really only appears to be protocol and etiquette that is governed by the US Flag Code.. Indeed, whilst you would probably be offending some upstart "veterans" by doing so, you could wipe your arse with the US Flag and no one could do a thing about it, legally.

EDIT: In fact, reading the flag code, Uncle Sam himself is in violation of it:

The flag should never be used as wearing apparel, bedding, or drapery.

Also, many companies are also in violation of the flag code:

The flag should never be used for advertising purposes in any manner whatsoever

I am sure I can find many more examples in your Flag Code that are routinely ignored, so selectively stating this business was in violation whilst ignoring all other violations kind of makes your whole point, well, pointless.

Originally posted by jrod
... but I too find it disrespectful that someone would continue to fly a tattered flag.

I dont see an image of the 'tattered flag' in the article.

Do you have an image of it?

I've seen a lot of old flags flying in business windows.


what else should the police have done when he admitted to committing a (petty) crime? It's their job to enforce the law, right?

Originally posted by stumason

Apparently (and this coming from a Brit so you really should know better) but these "laws" you quote not only lack penalties for violation of them, but are not actually enforceable because of a Supreme Court decision citing that it would be in violation of your First Amendment rights. There would have to be an amendment to the Constitution of the United States for it to be enforceable and punishable.

It really only appears to be protocol and etiquette that is governed by the US Flag Code.. Indeed, whilst you would probably be offending some upstart "veterans" by doing so, you could wipe your arse with the US Flag and no one could do a thing about it, legally.

EDIT: In fact, reading the flag code, Uncle Sam himself is in violation of it:

The flag should never be used as wearing apparel, bedding, or drapery.

Also, many companies are also in violation of the flag code:

The flag should never be used for advertising purposes in any manner whatsoever

I am sure I can find many more examples in your Flag Code that are routinely ignored, so selectively stating this business was in violation whilst ignoring all other violations kind of makes your whole point, well, pointless.

edit on 13/10/10 by stumason because: (no reason given)

To be fair I did not editorialize, comment, or otherwise color an opinion in this thread. I merely provided a link to the flag code for the benefit of those choosing to participate here. That is the only function that I sought to serve by posting and, in that regard, my point was not pointless.

If I made any statement about this business being in violation of anything I would ask that you kindly please point me to it, as I cannot find any example of having done so myself.

Whether or not the code is enforced or even enforceable does not counter the reality that it is, indeed, law - as I have previously stated.

~Heff

Originally posted by stumason
Also, many companies are also in violation of the flag code:

The flag should never be used for advertising purposes in any manner whatsoever

I am sure I can find many more examples in your Flag Code that are routinely ignored,

Many companies? Can you provide an example? I haven't seen it, except in a historical context before it was outlawed:

www.jeffbridgman.com...

Near the end of the nineteenth century, there was a growing shift in public opinion to uphold the Stars & Stripes as a sacred object, worthy of the most scrupulous ethics regarding its use and display. Attempts were made to ban the use of the flag for advertising in 1890 and 1895, but it was not until the year 1905 that the U.S. Congress finally decreed that the use of text or portraits on official insignia of the United States would afterwards be outlawed.

Some traditions die hard, however, and this did not entirely eliminate it. Later examples survive, probably made without the respective candidates’ consent, but the turn of the new century generally marked the end of an era where politicians sought to woo their constituency with bold and whimsical versions of Old Glory.

There are some examples at that link but they appear to predate the law.

What I see businesses doing is drawing some configuration of stars and stripes in red white and blue which SUGGESTS an American flag, but it usually doesn't look exactly like a flag, they make it look different enough to get around the law.

I'm not sure how tattered a flag has to be before it would be considered "not fitting" to display, but that sounds like quite a judgment call, subject to interpretation. Obviously he shouldn't be messing with other people's flags, if the store owner was illegally flying the flag the most he should have done was report the store owner.

Originally posted by Aggie Man
1. it wasn't his flag to remove
2. he didn't ask if he could remove it
3. he didn't replace it with a shiny new flag.

It's theft, plain and simple.

What is wrong with this country is all the jackholes that think they are entitled to take matters into their own hands, simply because something offends them.

absolutely correct IMO.
The PO should have been fined and cited
but it was not this vets job to do that.
He acted improperly.