15 Y/O Shot In Back After Throwing Rocks At Old Man....Can This Be Justified?

It is sad that a stupid fifteen year old hoodlum was shot by an old man and died.... I wonder how many times the old man had been victimized, attempted to have the police intervene, wasn't responded to and felt that there was no other option except to do what he did..... When I was 15 I would have expected to get shot by someone if I was destroying their property and showing that kind of disrespect toward them..... I lived in a nice neighborhood that became inhabited by lower income families and people involved in criminal activities as the older people that owned homes died off and others fled to newer suburban developments.... I have to admit to having a lot of empathy and compassion for the old man. There is no telling how much he had been victimized before it reached a point where he could stand it no longer and stood up for himself, instead of being a victim that had no other option other than to continue being victimized.... People that have never been in a situation like he was in have no idea what is like or how they might have responded after they had been driven beyond their tolerance threshold.

Originally posted by gps777

If this man was my neighbour I would have gone out and helped him,not shoot them though.

Absolutely, I'd go raging over there and probably split the brat's lip wide open. Maybe take a baseball bat and start hitting the rocks back at the kids? THAT would teach him a lesson... what lesson is he learning now -- so deep in the ground? What lesson did these children learn? Gun violence solves problems? Shoot vandals if they are on your property because it is yours we said it was yours you paid for it, you, you, you, you, you. It's all about you, kid. All about you. Is this any different from what they thought when they started pelting the old man's house with rocks? What problem did this solve other than a flock of kids vandalizing an old man's property? That's worth one 15 year old's life, apparently -- possession of property. Add that to the list of casualties of capitalism.

Originally posted by Brood

Absolutely, I'd go raging over there and probably split the brat's lip wide open. Maybe take a baseball bat and start hitting the rocks back at the kids? THAT would teach him a lesson

Yep,I`m of the same mindset as you in that.

Shoot vandals if they are on your property because it is yours we said it was yours you paid for it

Here`s where we differ

In this old guys mind it wasn`t about vandalism,it was about being continually harrassed to the point of extreme force because he was at his wits end,through either no faith what so ever in law inforcement and the judical system,bad parenting,etc,when all he wanted was some peace in his home for himself and his mother,who is also a victim in all of this.

Sadly she will not have her son either.

Is this any different from what they thought when they started pelting the old man's house with rocks? What problem did this solve other than a flock of kids vandalizing an old man's property?

I can only wish (I know its just a fantasy) tougher laws as a deterent would be brought about in defense of the elderly from punks getting their thrills.

As I said earlier,if say the old guy or his mother had of died from a heart attack through being terrorized,it would not be seen as murder,just death through natural causes.

I doubt it would even hit the news,let alone be called murder.

These young men are not children babies or kids,yet under the law they are still juvenile.

reply to post by gps777


I can see the point... pretty clearly actually. I've had eggs pelted at my front door because we are the gay couple on the block -- no other reason. They even brought it to my work one day. Anyways, we call the police, they come, we tell them that they are throwing eggs and screaming derogatory remarks and being stupid brats as usual. As soon as we start bringing up the fact that we are gay the police immediately say "Calling people names is not illegal". I responded with, "actually, it's called harassment, and it is very much illegal it is just not a criminal offence unless a criminal offense is already being perpetrated in which case it becomes a hate crime" (I'm used to educating police officers on the law since all they seem to learn in police foundations is how to run laps around the gymnasium, but I'll withhold my "opinion" on police education and attitude for another time). The case went on to resolve absolutely nothing even though I gave the addresses and names of all of the delinquents, but the next time they came around I wasn't about to whip out my machete and go hack them to pieces. Thing is, 15 year old boys don't know sh*t and they think they know everything, I've been more than just aware of that since high school, and whether or not they impeach on my privacy, I'm not about to slaughter them with a machete and pretend it was justified because I was being ridiculed in the only place I was supposed to feel safe from this kind of crap. What did I do? I used a real weapon that cowards wouldn't dare to use -- my words. I put those stupid brats in their place and had them running home in tears after hearing about how their parents are inadequate morons and that bore the rotten fruit of today's society and that people can only change if they aren't arrogant morons that judged people, and quickly showed them how all of the slurs they touted were insanely hypocritical and how their behavior was the exact opposite of the "Christian morals" they thought they had, etc. Like you said, these aren't tiny little babies; talk to them and you might find they are capable of listening.

Here's why I'm so skeptical of this whole situation: what the hell provoked the children to do this? What don't we know about this situation? Was it repeatedly happening because it was repeatedly provoked? The man certainly isn't telling us, and what's left of the perp is a chalk outline on the sidewalk, so how do we know that this man wasn't a lunatic? Because his mother is dependent on him? Last time I checked, the Texas Chainsaw Murderer took good care of his mother, too (not that I would ever call this man a murderer; this is clearly manslaughter at the most), the kids there also walked onto his property... gasp... not his PROPERTY! Property: the most sacred thing of all. Life? who needs that chump sh*t! I can see the point you're making and I don't exactly disagree, just a difference in opinion in small areas. I'm more or less going after the people in here who thinks it's alright to shoot anyone who is trespassing on your property, because that is ridiculously primitive. That's right, Texas, I said primitive. And that's why I no longer live in the U.S., because there are too many arrogant morons down there that I am sick of putting up with them, and I certainly will not have my children (That's right, Texas, a gay person with children! We're also MARRIED in all REAL definitions of the word ) wandering the streets where they could trip on a piece of sidewalk chalk and be shot in the face for landing on some lunatic's grass.

I don't blame anyone for siding with this man, though; it's easy to take the side of the one who can argue their case because they have this thing called life.

Interesting article and there are many questions that are not answered. After reviewing it, I am still left with many questions, and I am sure they will come up in the trial, as this is not the first time that this has happened, nor do I believe it will be the last.
The first question that comes to mind, and it is something that we all should be asking, is how many times has this occured in say the days, weeks and months up to this event? After all if there is a history of this, where the suspect has called in to complain, then there is obviously a pattern there that would indicate that he was the victim of harassement.
The next question is why was the victim there, and what all was he doing? According to his mother, he never goes into that neighborhood, but if that is so, why was he there in the first place? It is very obvious from watching the article, she clearly did not know what all her child was doing and where he was going, if this was as much of a shock to her as it turned out to be.
Another question is what is the current state of physical and mental health of the suspect? He showed some compency in the aspect of picking up the shells and hiding the weapon, but what is his current state of health? Some disabilities are not so obvious, nor is some of the mental problems that plague so many, so that will come into a factor.
The final question that I would want to know, if I was the sitting judge in this case: What would have happened if those rocks had hit this senior citizen, or if the suspect was sitting in side and the rock broke a window by him, injuring him in the process, would the outcry over this guy being the vicitm, be the same as a child being shot in the back?
Did the guy give a warning, to where the children knew that he was pulling out a weapon, or did he take it out and fire it at the children?
There are way too many questions to make a decision, or even state what the appropirate response should and should not be.

Seems rather unfair to assume the old man had his head together. I see countless suggestions about what he could have done, but the fact is that not all of us have a vast reservoir of ideas and strategies. Justifying "pranks" is just silly. They shouldn't have been throwing anything, they shouldn't have been bothering him. Pranks annoy people. Why should someone have to submit themselves to the trivialities of some bothersome youth? It doesn't make sense to me that one should have to "deal" with it, just because they're young.

The man seems to have tried to be diplomatic, and tried to get the authorities involved. Now I don't justify the kill, but I understand the reasoning. However, I see no good reason to purposely give someone a hard-time, when they haven't done anything to you.

I feel the outcome of this situation is probably not what the old-man desired. In truth, I believe all he wanted was peace. Unfortunately, I believe his mind got the best of him, and he made a huge mistake. Might I also add that there are cops with years of training that overreact from time to time as well. Well, to those perceiving the guilty party as innocent, anyway. I've seen cops reason that there isn't any specific amount of shots you fire, when you fire.

While analyzing this situation, I feel that many of you have ignored how wishy-washy and fast-paced the real world can be.

Example: If someone broke into my home, that right there is a massive breach of trust. It effectively circumvents my security, the control of my environment is threatened. That being said, not only has the person proved that they are untrustworthy, but that in-turn leads me to wonder about their intentions. Are they armed? Could they be capable of hurting me, or killing me? Immediately, I am uneasy, I do not trust my surroundings, I feel threatened, I feel wronged and fear for the possibilities; in this whirlwind of emotion, I might do something I later regret. Not because I am inclined to do it, but because that person put me in a state where I felt intense stress.

Now, I don't believe you should simply hurt/kill people whenever they tick you off, like some have straw-man'd against. Easy argument to bat down.

We must also take into consideration that this gentleman is elderly. This might also contribute to the situation.



All-in-all, that youth shouldn't have been pestering the old man. There is no justifying it. He shouldn't have been killed, but not all of us are action heroes who have trained in the mountains and know exactly how to not kill a person with a potentially lethal weapon.

Originally posted by ofhumandescent
reply to post by 19872012

 

In all honesty, I really don't know. I would like to think that I would leave vengeance up to karma because to commit the act of vengeance than, I believe, adds onto your own karma. It continues the cycle.

But, I really don't know.

I feel so bad about my friend, the poor old guy that was beaten to death for no reason other than "sport". One can only hope that those individuals that committed this horrible act will suffer the karmatic consequences.

What goes around comes around. As above so below.

Why can't everyone just play nice?

Cannot see the "fun" in hurting another, completely foreign concept to me.

edit on 16-10-2010 by ofhumandescent because: Spelling.

Would you say you hate the people who did this? I'm not sticking up for them, just maybe trying to understand - do you think maybe their pleasure/pain receptors in their brain were broken by something, such as abuse as children, or just brain wiring gone wrong? Would it be better to you if they dropped dead or asked for forgiveness? I don't mean to be rude, I'm just trying to see from another angle, I don't want to believe they're just plain evil but then again, maybe they are, i don't know.

Originally posted by Brood
As soon as we start bringing up the fact that we are gay the police immediately say "Calling people names is not illegal". I responded with, "actually, it's called harassment, and it is very much illegal it is just not a criminal offence unless a criminal offense is already being perpetrated in which case it becomes a hate crime"

You can consider yourself fortunate then pal,because at least you can have them up on Hate Crime charges,what do the elderly have,simply for being an easy target because they`re elderly?

(I'm used to educating police officers on the law since all they seem to learn in police foundations is how to run laps around the gymnasium, but I'll withhold my "opinion" on police education and attitude for another time).

I dont doubt you could educate some police officers on the law/s,thing is they are only people as well,full of their own opinions and biases.

Thing is, 15 year old boys don't know sh*t and they think they know everything,

Sorry dude,thats way too much of a general statement,there are many 15 year olds and younger or older that know right from wrong.

I'm not about to slaughter them with a machete and pretend it was justified because I was being ridiculed in the only place I was supposed to feel safe from this kind of crap. What did I do? I used a real weapon that cowards wouldn't dare to use -- my words.

I know brood and I know you to be quite level headed.

Thing is,in our last couple of posts we both responded with similar comments on what we would do to these young guys in defense of the old guy if we were there to help.

Giving someone a good thump in the head can cause death also,one punch is enough sometimes.We both could have been where the old man is now through those actions.

Yet I still would if I thought it nessecary.

Here's why I'm so skeptical of this whole situation: what the hell provoked the children to do this?

#es and giggles? heck one poster in this thread says he does it and he`s 37.Thrills just to see how far you can push someone and get away with it.

What did these old people do to provoke their attacks,it must of been their fault too then?........

www.news.com.au...

au.news.yahoo.com...

au.news.yahoo.com...

www.abc.net.au...

Was it repeatedly happening because it was repeatedly provoked?

Your better than this brood.

How was this old man provoking these young men all night,when he was inside his house with his elderly mother.

The man certainly isn't telling us

Thats because hes behind bars for murder.

so how do we know that this man wasn't a lunatic? Because his mother is dependent on him? Last time I checked, the Texas Chainsaw Murderer took good care of his mother, too

He could be MKultra and all of this was staged to take guns off of American citizens,so the gov can have their police state as well.But lets not get too rediculous.

I can see the point you're making and I don't exactly disagree, just a difference in opinion in small areas. I'm more or less going after the people in here who thinks it's alright to shoot anyone who is trespassing on your property.

I think you and I after awhile could agree on almost everything on this topic,but I must have overlooked people that are saying it's alright to shoot anyone who is trespassing on their property,I have seen people say they would shoot someone for that ongoing type of harassment.

I don't blame anyone for siding with this man, though; it's easy to take the side of the one who can argue their case because they have this thing called life.

No thats not why I have sided with this man at all.

I have mostly sided with the underdog from an early age,I do not however agree with killing these young men,though fully understand him wanting them dead.Look at all the news,show me where the MSM in taking this old guys side and not these young mens side.

Its easy to see the wrong of what the old guy eventually did,its harder to see and understand what this old guy and his mother were being put through for it to happen.

Gee,how nice it would be to KNOW that anyone you might give a hard time had the actual RIGHT to carry a gun.

What a nice world it would be,with people actually behaving themselves KNOWING that if they catch you on a bad day,and give you a hard time.......

You might just load their face full of lead right then and there.

It's a matter of respect.

Death is inevitable,it happens.......

The old guy probably shouldn't have done a body shot.

But your government commits murder every single day of the year.

I am thinking that a lot of those that can't understand the the vulnerability that the accused must have felt have either lived a protected life or are very young.... Being old is a bitch and I certainly had no idea that I would ever not be able to depend on law enforcement or my neighbors to stand up for me or others that were being harassed until I lived in a neighborhood where everybody was terrified to take a stand against the criminal element that existed there. That was close to 25 years ago and I had a face off with three of the problem children that were making life hell for the older people and others that happened to be of a different color than they were... I got a broken bottle stuck in the left side of my head and neck just missing my jugular artery and hit across my back and and ribs on my left side from behind but still managed to send one to the hospital and one of them ended up in jail, one being a juvenile was also hauled off, the other had sense enough to take off with out joining the others in attacking me.... I had already been a disabled combat for 16 years at the time but in good enough shape that most people wouldn't mess with me but these misunderstood children that boasted of what pushovers people in the more affluent side of town were and how quickly they would submit to giving up the keys to their cars and purchases in the parking lots of crowded malls.... The incident wasn't by any means the one and only time I had that kind of experience, I had been involved in a situation similar to it 13 years before where I had to go get sewed up and then was too appear before a grand jury.... My very pregnant wife went with me to explain what happened...The jury was amused and three of the four were charged with aggravated assault..... When I was about 45 I realized that I could no longer allow anyone to throw the first punch if I didn't want to get messed up and moved off into the woods where I hope to hell no one will mess with me..... If a person doesn't stand up to these kinds of people and allow them to have their way they will keep on doing it to them and others.. The world is a jungle, you don't have to be prey for the predators and you can't always run or find a cop..... People that want to mess around with an older person are taking a very dangerous chance... Then old guy may be programmed from prior encounters and situations to just respond to a perceived threat and eliminate it.... It's a symptom of conditioning referred to as hyper vigilance and there are people all over the place that have a problem controlling it and it isn't their fault.

When my sis first moved here years ago, she had no idea the part of town called Shively was a dystopian hell. Shortly after moving into her aprtment, leaving for work one morning she had a gun shoved in her face for the few bucks in her wallet.

She moved, thank GOD my family has the money to help in a situation like this. Unfortunately most do not.

When I moved in to help her, as she is disabled, she had managed to move into one of if not the wealthiest neighborhoods here in Louisville, and I would live no where else, I simply do not feel safe in this town.

Despite paying the higher taxes for my zipcode, my son was still mugged in side the school right in the good neighborhood we live in, on his fifth day.

My next move is to get trained on a gun while I wait to move.

Anyway, maybe others have not experienced the terror these "children" inflict on innocent victims, (in both of the cases above it was "children" thugs).

Here is a nice long TOPIX thread which is from the Louisville Forum discussing the case.

BE FOREWARNED.

Topix has some racists and some real clowns on it, but there is a lively debate going, for adults only.

reply to post by hotbakedtater


Tater, I'm sorry your family has so much trouble in your town. Move to the South! Or Midwest. Missouri, Oklahoma, Texas, Georgia, Mississippi, Alabama, Florida, etc.

Anyhow, please remember that getting trained with a gun is a fantastic first step, but carrying a gun is a huge responsibility and it takes as much emotional preparation as it does physical and mental. I used to have a very bad temper and sometimes I still intentionally leave my gun locked up at home if my mood isn't conducive for being armed. I used to be quick to fight, but when I carry my gun I am the coolest, calmest person around. I will avoid a confrontation at all costs, because I know the potential deadly escalation that could occur.

Anyhow, good luck with both endeavors!

reply to post by getreadyalready


Thank you. Our plan is to move to California, but I may have to move back to rural western Kentucky for my youngest teen, just for a few years. I have plenty of old friends who never left, who will be glad to teach me all about guns. But I may have a year left her in the city, so I might as well begin training on sissy's and dad's guns. My mom and dad just recently went to the machine gun shoot here outside of Louisville.

I also really feel awful making my city sound so dangerous, but it cannot be denied. I do manage to eek out much pleasure here, our parks are gorgeous, and my neighborhood and the few places I feel safe are wonderful. There are so many very nice folks here, caring, even me! But this city life is for the birds, I have had my fill.

As a teen I could not wait to hit the big bad world and leave my small town for the city. I managed to hit Dallas, Denver, reno and the San Jouiquin Valley, CA. Now here I am in Louisville wishing I were right back in that small town I could not wait to leave behind!

reply to post by hotbakedtater


G`day hotbakedtater

I went to the forum you linked in the hope of reading some new news on all of this,I know you gave the warning beforehand about the racism comments but sheeshhhh! I had to stop reading after the second page.

If there is any news on this case,can you please keep us updated here.

Thanks in advance.

reply to post by gps777


Of course, right now it is all old news. The old man has been indicted for murder, as the wheels of justice crank slowly, it may be some time before an update.

reply to post by hotbakedtater


I used to know this old feller, a little older than this gent...
Anyway he had dementia and when you went to visit you had to be really careful if how you approached him... he could become violent without warning... something quite common among those old war horses ya know...

Kids might think it fun to torment some old folks but ya know, every once an a while they will meet one who shoots back...and who's falt is that? the old guys, the parents, the kids??? well frankly all of them had a hand in this needless death

Explanation: I don't know why I am doing this? S&F!

I am actually asleep at the moment... sleep texting! :shk:

anyhoo... i read a bit and this is my take...

Yes it CAN be justified... here is why!

Remember ruby ridge... remember that poor kid whose dog was shot, arm was blown off and then was callously shot in the back and killed by federal marshals? I certainly do and I also remember that Mr Cooper was never charged with anything for doing that to poor young sammy!

If ya work for TPTB your good as gold it seems!

So using that and putting that to this poor old fella's advantage I came up with... well there are several threads on ATS about how we are all OWNED by TPTB... seems we already all work for them. Do you see where I'm going with this???

Personal Disclosure: Wow sleep texting is fun!

reply to post by DaddyBare


Now that makes me even sadder. I hope he gets a good defense attorney to bring his past problems with dementia out.

But I still have a hard time feeling sorry for the dead kid.

Thanks for shring that, DB.

reply to post by OmegaLogos




Do NOT get me started on Ruby Ridge, that is one of the worst cases of state sanctioned harrassment and m urder I have ever read. I feel so awful for Randy Weaver and what survives of his family.

reply to post by hotbakedtater

Explanation: So I'm right then! Thats disgusting! St*r for you!

I was hoping you'd shoot me down in flames! I'm just as mad as you! (

Personal Disclosure: I apologize for taking no prisoners with my sleepy post! I was unfortunately well trained [OL is manchurian] by TPTB!