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I just saw Fahrenheit 9/11....

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posted on Jun, 29 2004 @ 04:30 PM
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Here's a review for the movie that I posted on Yahoo. It's not a detail oriented, case-by-case examination, as you will see, but rather an attempt to translate what is at the core of the movie. Let's face it...the Hayes Code died in the 60s and 70s with Blaxploitation movies, and modern film has only gotten increasingly intrusive and exploratory. This is a forward movement in our culture, not a digression. At any rate, here's my "review":

LET'S SMOKE 'EM OUT!
"'Triumph of the Will' is considered by many film critics to be one of the greatest documentaries of all time...but if everyone who has watched this movie followed its Natzi PR, we would be living in quite a different world. But anyone can take something useful away from this film...be it by becoming a more informed citizen or by developing a liberation in the nonlinear thought-process. Moore's intention is not for the viewers to come away with his same beliefs, rather he just wants to show you the tools for forming a more involved approach at watching the nightly news. Sure the film is bias, but what do you think political opinions are meant to be? Our entire political system is set-up on a yes/no basis with little middle ground. That's what happens when there are only two political parties. Do not be turned off by the bias of the media, regarding the film as only pure PR. When you hear someone say something, don't accept it instantly as your own opinion. Research every end of the spectrum and find where your opinions lie. I think this should be required viewing for voters before they pull the curtains in their booths...it should be required for spoiled children who always take but never thank...and furthermore, it should be required veiwing for the Bush and Bin Laden family. I'm sure they could all be packed into a big enough theatre...then we could "smoke 'em out" and restore what little faith we have left in our government."




posted on Jun, 29 2004 @ 04:31 PM
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Originally posted by nanna_of_6
Alright, if you actually beleive and have PROOF that there "are" and "were" WMD's in Iraq, lets see your "proof" , and I'm not talking about the "propaganda" that Bush&Co are spewing out, as truth. I want cold/hard/factual proof .


" The United Nations has determined that Saddam Hussein shipped weapons of mass destruction components as well as medium-range ballistic missiles before, during and after the U.S.-led war against Iraq in 2003.

The UN Monitoring, Verification and Inspection Commission briefed the Security Council on new findings that could help trace the whereabouts of Saddam's missile and WMD program.

The briefing contained satellite photographs that demonstrated the speed with which Saddam dismantled his missile and WMD sites before and during the war. Council members were shown photographs of a ballistic missile site outside Baghdad in May 2003, and then saw a satellite image of the same location in February 2004, in which facilities had disappeared. "

Excerpted from.
216.26.163.62...

" The Commission’s experts are conducting an investigation in parallel with the IAEA Iraq Nuclear Verification Office regarding the discovery of items from Iraq that are relevant to the mandates of UNMOVIC and IAEA at a scrapyard in the Netherlands. In particular, following a visit of IAEA to a scrapyard in Rotterdam to investigate increased radiation readings, it was discovered, through photographs taken at the time, that engines of SA-2 surface-to-air missiles were among the scrap (see figure below). They are the type of engines used in the Al Samoud 2 proscribed missile programme. In addition, a number of items and equipment that may also be relevant to the UNMOVIC mandate were seen among the scrap. The existence of missile engines originating in Iraq among scrap in Europe may affect the accounting of proscribed engines known to have been in Iraq’s possession in March 2003."

Excerpted from.
www.globalsecurity.org...

" The assertion that Saddam Hussein had no Weapons of Mass Destruction prior to last year’s liberation has been rendered absurd – by United Nations weapons inspectors.

Demetrius Perricos, acting chairman of UN Monitoring, Verification and Inspection Commission (UNMOVIC), recently disclosed that his inspectors have been busily tracking shipments of illicit Iraqi WMD components around the world.

The Associated Press announced that UNMOVIC inspectors have found dozens of engines from banned al-Samoud 2 (SA2) missiles, which were shipped out of Iraq as “scrap metal.” Most recently, UNMOVIC agents found 20 SA-2 engines in Jordan, along with a great deal of other WMD materials. Officials discovered an identical engine in a Rotterdam port in the Netherlands and believe as many as a dozen extra SA-2 missile engines alone have been transported out of Iraq and remain unaccounted for. Inspectors believe at least some of these engines have also reached Turkey and hope to search Turkish ports in the near future.
"

Excerpted from.
frontpagemag.com...

" NEW YORK — Twenty engines from banned Iraqi missiles were found in a Jordanian scrap yard with other equipment that could be used for weapons of mass destruction, a U.N. official said, raising new security questions about Iraq's scrap metal sales since the fall of Saddam Hussein.
Acting chief United Nations inspector Demetrius Perricos revealed the discoveries to the U.N. Security Council in a closed-door briefing Wednesday. "


Excerpted from.
www.washtimes.com...


I originally reported this already and some more links in here.
www.abovetopsecret.com...

Oh, btw, you can get the original report from the UN site which I posted in the last link.


[edit on 29-6-2004 by Muaddib]



posted on Jun, 29 2004 @ 04:40 PM
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Far be it from me to become the next conspiracy theorist, but what are the chances that this evidence has been planted or the government is simply reacting to disputes by feeding the US a spoonful of BS...the Bush administration has been under heavy fire since day one, with little to show for their efforts beyond tax cuts for the wealthy and wealthier. I think this could be a clear example of the saying that this is "opium for the masses."



posted on Jun, 29 2004 @ 04:55 PM
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Maudibb, I still haven't seen any evidence of WMDs. I just see dual-use components.



"The removal of these materials from Iraq raises concerns with regard to proliferation risks," Perricos told the council. Perricos also reported that inspectors found Iraqi WMD and missile components shipped abroad that still contained UN inspection tags.


So, they found stuff they already knew was there that had a dual-use for WMDs? I don't really understand how thats evidence. Its like saying cause I have orange juice concentrate, I'm going to spray someone with napalm. Where are the nukes, and where are the stockpiles of sarin and VX? Please don't show me that fertilizer article again...

[edit on 29-6-2004 by Jamuhn]



posted on Jun, 29 2004 @ 05:07 PM
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Regarding the Bin Laden family connections & their relationship with Osama - this makes for an interesting. Its quite long though.

www.binladenfamily.com...



posted on Jun, 29 2004 @ 05:10 PM
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Originally posted by Jamuhn
Maudibb, I still haven't seen any evidence of WMDs. I just see dual-use components.


Humm...lets see...what else could they use missiles, or rocket for specific missiles which were banned from Iraq after the Gulf War....

And how about installations that UNMOVIC had been monitoring through satellites and suddenly dissapeared in 2004?

How about the readings of higher than normal radiations from the metal scraps that were from Iraq.

I don't see how you can say that 20 missiles or more could be dual-use. What were they going to put in them milk?

Did noone read my thread on what the highest Russian defector said that they had told the Iraqis/Saddam to do if they needed to get rid, and hide, their wmd program fast?

[edit on 29-6-2004 by Muaddib]



posted on Jun, 29 2004 @ 05:44 PM
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Here are some links on what some of the Russian defectors are saying. There at least a couple of threads. one of them Phoenix started it. The thread I started first is about the new Russian military games they have been taking up lately, again, but later i present interviews that were done to some Russian military defectors that are living in the States now.

This is the original thread with more information where i excerpted the two links below.
www.abovetopsecret.com...

" Frontpage Interview’s guest today is Ion Mihai Pacepa, former acting chief of Communist Romania’s espionage service. In 1987 he published Red Horizons (Regnery Gateway), reprinted in 24 countries. In 1999 Mr. Pacepa authored The Black Book of the Securitate, reportedly an all time bestseller in Romania. He is now finishing a book on the origins of current anti-Americanism.
.......................
Pacepa: Contemporary political memory seems to be conveniently afflicted with some kind of Alzheimer's disease. Not long ago, every Western leader, starting with President Clinton, fumed against Saddam’s WMD. Now almost no one remembers that after General Hussein Kamel, Saddam’s son-in-law, defected to Jordan in 1995, he helped us find “more than one hundred metal trunks and boxes” containing documentation “dealing with all categories of weapons, including nuclear.” He also aided UNSCOM to fish out of the Tigris River high-grade missile components prohibited to Iraq. That was exactly what my old Soviet-made “Sãrindar” plan stated he should do in case of emergency: destroy the weapons, hide the equipment, and preserve the documentation. No wonder Saddam hastened to lure Kamel back to Iraq, where three days later he was killed together with over 40 of his relatives in what the Baghdad official press described as a “spontaneous administration of tribal justice.” Once that was done, Saddam slammed the door shut to any UNSCOM inspection. "

" Libya was Romania’s main client in that socialist division of labor, because of Ceausescu’s close association with Colonel Muammar Gaddafi. Moscow kept Iraq. Andropov told me that, if our Iraq and Libyan experiment proved successful, the same strategy would be extended to Syria. Recently, Libya’s Gaddafi admitted to having WMD, and the CIA inspectors found them. Why should we believe that the almighty Soviet Union, which had proliferated WMD all over the world, was not able to do the same thing in Iraq? Every piece of armament Iraq had came from the former Soviet Union—from the Katyusha launchers to the T72 tanks, BMP-1 fighting vehicles and MiG fighter planes. In the spring of 2002, just a couple of weeks after Russia took its place at the NATO table, President Putin and his ex-KGB officers who are now running Russia concluded another $40 billion trade deal with Saddam Hussein’s tyrannical regime in Iraq. That was not for grain or beans—Russia has to import them from elsewhere."

Excerpted from.
www.frontpagemag.com...



Here is the original link to another thread on this subject.
www.abovetopsecret.com...

Here are some excerpts from those interviews.

" We know from at least three defector sources that a long range Kremlin strategy did exist. We know that this strategy employed deception on a massive scale, and we know from two of these defectors (i.e., Jan Sejna and Anatoliy Golitsyn) that the long range plan would involve the controlled collapse of Soviet Russia's military alliance in Eastern Europe -- the Warsaw Pact.

If this strategy is now defunct, and if the Kremlin no longer seeks victory over the West, then why haven't we seen this plan exposed at a Moscow press conference? Why haven't our good democratic friends in Moscow declassified the old strategy? Surely, it would clarify the whole history of the Cold War.

But Lenin remains unburied and the plan remains in effect.

Sadly, the West remains clueless. From the very start, America's leaders have refused to believe that a Kremlin plan existed. "One of the basic problems of the West," wrote Sejna, "is its frequent failure to recognize the existence of any Soviet 'grand design' at all.

Two leading U.S. policy analysts, Henry Kissinger and Edward Luttwak, for example, discounted the idea of a long-range Soviet deception strategy, and it was against this skepticism that Sejna wrote, "The Soviet Strategic Plan for the establishment of their 'Socialism' worldwide does, without doubt, exist. ..."
"

Excerpted from.
www.worldnetdaily.com...

"Nagorno-Karabag: A Case Study in "Perestroika"
by Dennis R. Papazian, Ph.D.
Dr. Dennis R. Papazian is a professor of Soviet history, the founder/director of the Armenian Research Center at The University of Michigan, Dearborn, and a member of the faculty of the Center for Russian and East European Studies at The University of Michigan, Ann Arbor. This paper is a preliminary draft/study written for oral delivery at the annual conference of the AAASS in Washington, DC, Friday, October 19, 1990."


"More recently, Anatoliy Golitsyn, a Soviet defector of high status, has suggested that the Soviet Union is capable of disinformation on such a massive scale that even the Borkenau system is no longer viable.2 In a book first published in 1984, and of necessity written before then, Golitsyn argues that the leadership of the whole Communist bloc came to an agreement in 1958 in which it established a long range program, a master plan, which it would realize through a large scale deception of the West, a monumental scam. "

Excerpted from.
www.umd.umich.edu...


" Question from chat room: Does Russia still see the U.S. as an enemy?

Col. Stanislav Lunev: Unfortunately, the Russian government considers the United States as its main potential military adversary. The increase in Russian intelligence activity against America is directly connected to this point of view, and this view is much more popular than it was in the beginning of the '90s.

Question from chat room: How can Russia continue with what I consider deceptive spying and still ask the USA to support it financially?

Col. Stanislav Lunev: It's not Russia itself that is hostile to the United States. The Russian people like America and consider America an example for their democratic reforms and creation of a free market economy. It’s the Russian government that is hostile. This is a government which actually spends all the billions of dollars it receives from the United States on its corrupt Russian elite that have private accounts in Western banks.

The Russian government tries to explain to the Russian people that Russians are living so badly, not because of a corrupted Russian government, but because an enemy would like to destroy Russia like it's already destroyed the former Soviet Union, destroyed Yugoslavia and would like to destroy Mother Russia, too. "


Excerpted from.
www.cnn.com...

Some of the above I have presented before. I see it as a high possibility, actually I am sure these defectors are right about what they are saying. This is one of the reasons why i think Russia "warned the US of impending attacks" so they could wash their hands and say they warned us.

If you don't think this is true make a search on Putin's latest move against free speech in Russia and once more the anti-American, and anti-West propaganda they are trying to feed to the Russian people.

The Russian people are not the ones doing this, it is their government.



[edit on 29-6-2004 by Muaddib]



posted on Jun, 29 2004 @ 06:10 PM
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To keep this on topic, I don't think that Moore is socialist, but he is badly misinformed and because of his greed he is misinforming the public that there were no wmd in Iraq, that there were no connections with Iraq and Al Qaeda, the only connection the 9/11 commission stated they did not find, was a direct connection between Iraq and 9/11.......but there are connections between Iraq and Al Qaeda...

Also meanwhile Moore misinforms America and makes up fantasies that may have some truth in them, but are still fantasies, he insults Americans in general and the victims of 9/11.

Some members,..., may say i keep bringing this up that he insulted the 9/11 victims, and they say this as if there was something wrong about me mentioning this.... wasn't it true? didn't he call the victims in flight 9/11 cowards?

I still think Moore is a jerk and just wants to make money, and many Americans are actually making some of his statements come true while he gets richer.

I can imagine what would have happened if Bush would have "even remotely implied" that the 9/11 victims were cowards.....

Many Americans just love Moore because he bashes the president, but they are ignoring everything else he is doing.




[edit on 29-6-2004 by Muaddib]



posted on Jun, 29 2004 @ 06:22 PM
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Sorry Mauddib, but you still haven't show me any payloads of nulear or biological weapons. I am not disputing that he didn't have these in the past, I mean these components even have UN tags on them, its nothing new.
I'm disputing the assertion that nuclear and biological missiles were ready to be launched at US or US-allied targets.

The only proof I see of actual payloads are the radioactive readings and the documentation. But it is already established that such weapons existed in the past. The question is, did the payloads exists and were ready for launch prior to the Iraq invasion? Even Hans Blix and many others have stated that Iraq was not an immediate threat.

Once again, I'll rephrase, where are the payloads that were ready for launch?



posted on Jun, 29 2004 @ 07:08 PM
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Muaddib
Saddam was told to dis-mantle his weapons and get rid of them, apparently he did just that, after the gulf-war.
If the UN was shown pictures of everything and locations of everything,..... who showed it to them,...... um, ... let me guess,...... this wonderful
Gov't of ours
.

Strange how they have come up with all these pictures and information,..... .
So my question is this,.... Why didn't they do something about it, when it was going on ?
And if this crap that you want us to beleive is true,.......... Then why didn't the UN back up Bush's attack on Iraq and help ?
Plus, where does it show as far as a connection from BinLaden to Saddan ?
Last question is,........ Why did Reagan, Bush Sr, give Saddam weapons to use, if he was so dangerous ?

Doesn't make any sence and the so-called "proof", is just that "SO CALLED", and lastly, Blood is Blood, family is family, there is no way the BinLaden's will turn their backs on a family-member completely, no matter how bad he is behaving and causing them embarassment, it goes against nature.



posted on Jun, 29 2004 @ 07:23 PM
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Originally posted by nanna_of_6
Muaddib
Saddam was told to dis-mantle his weapons and get rid of them, apparently he did just that, after the gulf-war.
If the UN was shown pictures of everything and locations of everything,..... who showed it to them,...... um, ... let me guess,...... this wonderful
Gov't of ours
.


Err....no...it was UNMOVIC (United Nations Monitoring, Verification and Inspection Commission)....... the US is not part of the UN......

I see...so i guess Saddam had to quickly get rid of as much as possible in 2003..... I guess 20 years was not enough and he had to do it as fast as possible in 1 year.....
Why would he actually get rid of them in 2003...hummm, and why would those that are still loyalist to him continue trying to get rid of more evidence.....could it be they were trying to cover for him? It seems so..... Sorry but I don't buy that Saddam waited to the last minute to get rid of wmd and factories that were producing them because the UN told him to, when he had been told to do so for 20 years and not to get any of the banned weapons.....

[edit on 29-6-2004 by Muaddib]



posted on Jun, 29 2004 @ 07:29 PM
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" Two separate discoveries of chemical weapons, possibly among the weapons of mass destruction Saddam hid from inspectors, were reported today in Iraq by U.S. officials.

The Iraq Survey Group, assigned the task of searching for WMD, confirmed a roadside bomb that exploded Saturday near a U.S. military convoy in the area of Baghdad International Airport contained sarin nerve agent.

Also, a senior Bush administration official told Fox News U.S. military units two weeks ago discovered mustard gas that was used as part of an improvised explosive device, or IED. "

Excerpted from.
www.worldnetdaily.com...



posted on Jun, 29 2004 @ 07:34 PM
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To keep this on topic for the premise of going to war. Saddam was an imminent threat, who possessed stockpiles of WMDs ready to be launched at targets within the world.

So, 1)We find no missiles that are WMDs, we find missiles that can be WMDs, but no nuclear or biological payload has been found.
2)No stockpiles

Its nice to see that with all those WMD components, whoever laid those bombs had to make-shift them. Foreign insurgents coming into Iraq all the time. Large amounts of Sarin found in Jordan believed to have been from Syria.

Still don't understand how this fits in with the premise of the war, I see peace in the Middle East being a reason and thats it.



posted on Jun, 29 2004 @ 08:03 PM
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Originally posted by Jamuhn
To keep this on topic for the premise of going to war. Saddam was an imminent threat, who possessed stockpiles of WMDs ready to be launched at targets within the world.

So, 1)We find no missiles that are WMDs, we find missiles that can be WMDs, but no nuclear or biological payload has been found.
2)No stockpiles

Its nice to see that with all those WMD components, whoever laid those bombs had to make-shift them. Foreign insurgents coming into Iraq all the time. Large amounts of Sarin found in Jordan believed to have been from Syria.

Still don't understand how this fits in with the premise of the war, I see peace in the Middle East being a reason and thats it.


humm...I see...so, lets say you are a police officer and you are supposed to check on a criminal, a known drug dealer/drug user, at his house.
When you knock at his house he immediately opens the door wide and you can see on a table, in the house, drug paraphernalia but no drugs around the paraphernalia..... Do you assume as a police officer that there are no drugs and that the paraphernalia is just a memento for the criminal of his happier days when he was using drugs freely and with no constrains from the police?..... Or do you understand that the paraphernalia's purpose is "to use it for drugs?........

----------Edited...in consideration of member-----------

The missiles that were found were part of what was banned from Iraq...... those were banned parts that Saddam shouldn't have had in his possession



[edit on 29-6-2004 by Muaddib]



posted on Jun, 29 2004 @ 08:10 PM
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paraphenlia is dual-use as well, as in that it can be used for tobacco, so its a good analogy. The problem, you can tell by the residue if someone was smoking. That's why I said your best evidence was the radioactive testing.

Whether someone would have paraphenlia if they weren't smoking weed anymore, maybe they would keep it for the other use. But note as well, that weed is a much bigger crime than paraphenelia. Just as the payload is a lot bigger crime than the dual-use rocket parts.

Do I think he would have used the rocket parts in the future, maybe, as far as being an immeninent threat right before we went in there, NO.

I believe we should have established more diplomacy, different war plan. IMO, it was a disaster except for the liberation of Iraqis, the 10,000 that dies are excluded from that, I guess they did get liberated in a way. But we were manipulated into going to war over the events of 9/11, that doesn't stand right for me.

A missile would make one hell of a bong by the way!!!


[edit on 29-6-2004 by Jamuhn]



posted on Jun, 29 2004 @ 08:21 PM
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Originally posted by Jamuhn
paraphenlia is dual-use as well, as in that it can be used for tobacco, so its a good analogy. The problem, you can tell by the residue if someone was smoking. That's why I said your best evidence was the radioactive testing.


Not really, if a police officer sees drug paraphernalia he will assume that you have drugs hidden somewhere not tobacco.

Oh and by the way Saddam did fire at least 3 missiles, two of them seemed to have been scuds and a third was an Iraqi Al Samoud at US and British troops in Kuwait. He was not supposed to have those either. And if I remember correctly i think he also fired at Israel....but the details on that one are sketchy in my memory. I'll see if i can dig it up.

" (AP) The missiles Saddam Hussein fired at U.S. and British forces in Kuwait appear to have been the same weapons he either claimed not to possess or agreed to destroy.

American, British and Kuwait military officials said Iraq fired at least three missiles Thursday — though they differed on how many of them were Scuds, which have been banned by the United Nations."

www.cbsnews.com...

Those missiles and the parts that were found in scrap yards and in Iraq were all banned parts and missiles.

[edit on 29-6-2004 by Muaddib]



posted on Jun, 29 2004 @ 08:27 PM
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Yet, we are allowed to have paraphenelia. And when nothing is found you aren't charged. We had weapons inspectors...

I'm still talking about payloads and stockpiles, imminent threat, etc...

[edit on 29-6-2004 by Jamuhn]



posted on Jun, 29 2004 @ 08:29 PM
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Also, a senior Bush administration official told Fox News U.S. military units two weeks ago discovered mustard gas that was used as part of an improvised explosive device, or IED. "

Excerpted from.
www.worldnetdaily.com...


^
^
Muaddib, this ..^... was dated back in May 17,04 ,.... You said it was two weeks ago
.



posted on Jun, 29 2004 @ 08:32 PM
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Originally posted by Jamuhn
Yet, we are allowed to have paraphenelia.


We are talking "drug paraphernalia" not "paraphernalia"..

Two different things.

and if you are going to tell an officer that you are allowed to have "drug paraphernalia"......good luck....



posted on Jun, 29 2004 @ 08:34 PM
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dude, all paraphanelia is legal until there is residue on it. Obviously, you've never smoked weed.

LOSER.
Just Kidding....



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