I have come to embrace Socialism!

1. Socialism and communism are the same ideology

Communism is but an extreme form of socialism. From the ideological standpoint, there is no substantial difference between the two. In fact, the communist Soviet Union called itself the Union of Soviet Socialist Republics (1922-1991) and communist China, Cuba and Vietnam define themselves as socialist nations.

2. Socialism violates personal freedom

Socialism seeks to eliminate “injustice” by transferring rights and responsibilities from individuals and families to the State. In the process, socialism actually creates injustice. It destroys true liberty: the freedom to decide all matters that lie within our own competence and to follow the course shown by our reason, within the laws of morality, including the dictates of justice and charity.

3. Socialism violates human nature

Socialism is anti-natural. It destroys personal initiative–a fruit of our intellect and free will–and replaces it with State control. It tends to totalitarianism, with its government and police repression, wherever it is implemented.

4. Socialism violates private property

Socialism calls for “redistributing the wealth” by taking from the “rich” to give to the poor. It imposes taxes that punish those who have been able to take greater advantage of their productive talents, capacity to work or thrift. It uses taxation to promote economic and social egalitarianism, a goal that will be fully achieved, according to The Communist Manifesto, with the “abolition of private property.”

5. Socialism opposes traditional marriage

Socialism sees no moral reason for people to restrict sex to marriage, that is, to an indissoluble union between a man and a woman. Furthermore, socialism undermines private property, which Friedrich Engels, founder of modern socialism and communism along with Karl Marx, saw as the foundation of traditional marriage.

6. Socialism opposes parental rights in education

Socialism has the State, and not parents, control the education of children. Almost from birth, children are to be handed over to public institutions, where they will be taught what the State wants, regardless of parental views. Evolution must be taught. School prayer must be forbidden.

7. Socialism promotes radical equality

A supposed absolute equality among men is the fundamental assumption of socialism. Therefore, it sees any inequality as unjust in itself. Private employers are quickly portrayed as “exploiters” whose profits really belong to their employees. As a consequence, they rule out the system of wage earning.

8. Socialism promotes atheism

Belief in God, who unlike us is infinite, omnipotent and omniscient, clashes head-on with the principle of absolute equality. Socialism therefore rejects the spiritual, claiming that only matter exists. God, the soul, and the next life are illusions according to socialism.

9. Socialism promotes relativism

For socialism there are no absolute truths or revealed morals that establish standards of conduct that apply to everyone, everywhere, and always. Everything evolves, including right and wrong, good and evil. There is no place for the Ten Commandments, neither in the private mind nor in the public square.

10. Socialism mocks religion

According to Karl Marx, religion is “the opium of the people.” Lenin, founder of the Soviet Union, agreed: “Religion is opium for the people. Religion is a sort of spiritual booze in which the slaves of capital drown their human image, their demand for a life more or less worthy of man.”
By Benjamin Hodge

reply to post by Missing Blue Sky

"2. Socialism violates personal freedom "

People were free to choose to be what they wanted, do what they wanted... This is wrong.

3. Socialism violates human nature

It does not destroy personal initiative, the collective pride in the nation creates the sense that everyone MUST help and be the best that they can be!

5. Socialism opposes traditional marriage

And of course that's why my mother in law divorced my father in-law... She didn't mind the other women, she was just bored of eating stale bread and water everyday...

6. Socialism opposes parental rights in education

Well it's just like in the US! Who teaches children? Certainly not parents!

7. Socialism promotes radical equality

And this is wrong because? It's ok for insurance companies to let people die for profit? It's ok for employers to pay you squat, or lay you off so that they can make more profits?

8. Socialism promotes atheism

Not everyone believes in god. The Russian and Ukrainian Orthodox church existed during the USSR...

10. Socialism mocks religion

I have to agree with Marx. Religion enslaves people into one mind frame and it has been killing people since the beginning...

Mangum

Originally posted by iamcamouflage

When do you consider the most pure time frame of capitalism in America?

Industrial Revolution

Originally posted by ghostsoldier
Sounds like Socialism to me, you know government regulation, exerting a degree of control over corporations and stuff.

*makes that puzzled look dogs make*

On a 1-10 scale from liberty to totalitarian control, I´ll be a 3.

Originally posted by iamcamouflage
You say you are a capitalist who no longer really cares about money because you have plenty. Why dont you give all your workers a raise? Forget "investing" in the community. Pay the people who helped you get to where you are now.

You see...thats precisely where we differ massively. I believe that by investing and thereby making even more, more people can be ultimately helped than if I dont invest it and instead give it away.

I know that if I just give it away to them they will go and buy a bigger TV instead of invet it. Its OK for them to buy a bigger TV, but if I had invested it I could make enough for two people to buy a bigger TV.

Originally posted by Wally Hope
Russia was not socialist, nor communist,

What was it then? The Soviets practiced perfect Socialism, by the book. They did everything Marx described in "Das Kapital".

Originally posted by IFA420
socialism hasnt worked in any country at anytime? how about sweden, Norway, even england has sosialized healthcare, it works a MILLION times better than in the US

Just because words sound similar, they dont mean the same thing. If I like socializing with people that doesnt mean Im a socialist. If I am OK with social healthcare programs (which I am, believe it or not), that does not make me a socialist.

reply to post by Skyfloating


I'm not getting this "investment" idea... what do you "invest" in? Shouldn't people be the best thing you can invest in? Shouldn't the people who work and create be the ones who should receive the benefits and reap the rewards for their work?

Why is it that profits need to be stored, banked and then stolen from the people who make the companies work?

I don't get that ideology, it's dumb. The guy on top who signs the papers can't answer the calls, take orders, ship them, track them, respond to complaints, balance the budget, file tax returns, etc... all at the same time... Without the people around him/her, they are NOTHING, the company can't run... So why keep the profits from the people who REALLY make the place run?

Originally posted by Magnum007
everything you've learned seems to be from Fox or CNN or other MSM as you use their talking points tactics in this "debate".... DENY IGNORANCE!

Is Wikipedia and the University Curriculum of both Russia, Europe and the USA part of the"msm conspiracy" too?

Recorded history in the west and recorded history in the east are never the going to be the same.

I hade a Russian girlfriend with which I visited a Russian family and spent time in Russia. They told me just the opposite of everything you`ve been trying to tell me. I also had a Polish girlfriend who told me quite a lot about Socialism of the pre 1990s.

They told me of massive food shortages. You told me those didnt exist, so I actually had to consult Wikipedia to check whether my Russian Ex-Family was lying to me.

These are facts, no matter how often you attack me personally + as a Moderator (which has nothing to do with my views in this thread btw).

You attack me personally in order to divert the readers attention from factual History which has nothing to do with "Fox News" History and all to do with Russians real-life experience.

What has this country become that people consider historical facts as "Fox News Propaganda"?

Originally posted by Magnum007

I'm not getting this "investment" idea... what do you "invest" in? Shouldn't people be the best thing you can invest in? Shouldn't the people who work and create be the ones who should receive the benefits and reap the rewards for their work?

Why is it that profits need to be stored, banked and then stolen from the people who make the companies work?

I don't get that ideology, it's dumb.

So you'd rather have 1 Dollar right away than 10 Dollars later....

reply to post by Skyfloating


Then how do you know to stop at 10$ not 15$ maybe even 20$ before you start giving back?

Originally posted by Magnum007
Then how do you know to stop at 10$ not 15$ maybe even 20$ before you start giving back?

Put simply, good Capitalism is if you give away a part, re-invest a part, save a part.

Or spread it and everyone will be healthy, educated, housed, fed, clothed and happy so that they can produce more!

Originally posted by Magnum007
Or spread it and everyone will be healthy, educated, housed, fed, clothed and happy so that they can produce more!

Give all away and re-invest nothing?

Put differently:

Imagine I have ten edible seeds. I can either give those ten seeds away or I can plant them to create a plant that will give off ten times the seeds I have right now.

Are you really suggesting I give people all ten seeds and plant none?

Don't reject these quotes outright..just because you may have bias against the Catholic Church, for the sake of Denying Ignorance, please read what these men have had to say about the issue. They are compelling arguments from people who have giving it much thought and study....please do NOT FLAME ..just be a little open minded a little patient and read it...you do not have to agree just think about it...Thanks

What the Popes Have to Say About Socialism

TFP.org | by Gustavo Solimeo | 2/24/2010

Anyone who examines the ideology of socialism will see the contrast between the socialist doctrine and the doctrine of the Church. All the same, it is not out of place to review the condemnation of the popes starting with Pius IX and ending with Benedict XVI. Thus, we present what the popes have to say about socialism as they condemn the socialist doctrine thoroughly and entirely. This is not a comprehensive compilation, but just some samples.
Pope_Pius_IX.jpg
PIUS IX (1846-1878):
“Overthrow [of] the entire order of human affairs”
“You are aware indeed, that the goal of this most iniquitous plot is to drive people to overthrow the entire order of human affairs and to draw them over to the wicked theories of this Socialism and Communism, by confusing them with perverted teachings.” (Encyclical Nostis et Nobiscum, December 8, 1849)

LEO XIII (1878-1903):
Hideous monster
“…communism, socialism, nihilism, hideous deformities of the civil society of men and almost its ruin.” (Encyclical Diuturnum, June 29, 1881)

Ruin of all institutions
“… For, the fear of God and reverence for divine laws being taken away, the authority of rulers despised, sedition permitted and approved, and the popular passions urged on to lawlessness, with no restraint save that of punishment, a change and overthrow of all things will necessarily follow. Yea, this change and overthrow is deliberately planned and put forward by many associations of communists and socialists” (Encyclical Humanum Genus, April 20, 1884, n. 27).

A sect “that threatens civil society with destruction”
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Leo XIII (1877-1903): Socialists assail the right of property sanctioned by natural law.
“…We speak of that sect of men who, under various and almost barbarous names, are called socialists, communists, or nihilists, and who, spread over all the world, and bound together by the closest ties in a wicked confederacy, no longer seek the shelter of secret meetings, but, openly and boldly marching forth in the light of day, strive to bring to a head what they have long been planning – the overthrow of all civil society whatsoever. Surely, these are they who, as the sacred Scriptures testify, ‘Defile the flesh, despise dominion and blaspheme majesty.’ (Jud. 8).” (Encyclical Quod Apostolici Muneris, December 28, 1878, n. 1)

Socialists debase the natural union of man and woman and assail the right of property
“They [socialists, communists, or nihilists] debase the natural union of man and woman, which is held sacred even among barbarous peoples; and its bond, by which the family is chiefly held together, they weaken, or even deliver up to lust. Lured, in fine, by the greed of present goods, which is ‘the root of all evils, which some coveting have erred from the faith’ (1 Tim. 6:10.3), they assail the right of property sanctioned by natural law; and by a scheme of horrible wickedness, while they seem desirous of caring for the needs and satisfying the desires of all men, they strive to seize and hold in common whatever has been acquired either by title of lawful inheritance, or by labor of brain and hands, or by thrift in one’s mode of life.” (Encyclical Quod Apostolici Muneris, December 28, 1878, n. 1)

Destructive sect
“…socialists and members of other seditious societies, who labor unceasingly to destroy the State even to its foundations.” (Encyclical Libertas Praestantissimum, June 20, 1888)

Enemy of society and of Religion
“…there is need for a union of brave minds with all the resources they can command. The harvest of misery is before our eyes, and the dreadful projects of the most disastrous national upheavals are threatening us from the growing power of the socialistic movement. They have insidiously worked their way into the very heart of the community, and in the darkness of their secret gatherings, and in the open light of day, in their writings and their harangues, they are urging the masses onward to sedition; they fling aside religious discipline; they scorn duties; they clamor only for rights; they are working incessantly on the multitudes of the needy which daily grow greater, and which, because of their poverty are easily deluded and led into error. It is equally the concern of the State and of religion, and all good men should deem it a sacred duty to preserve and guard both in the honor which is their due.” (Encyclical Graves de Communi Re, January 18, 1901, n. 21)
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Saint Pius X (1903-1914)
SAINT PIUS X (1903-1914):
The dream of re-shaping society will bring socialism
“But stranger still, alarming and saddening at the same time, are the audacity and frivolity of men who call themselves Catholics and dream of re-shaping society under such conditions, and of establishing on earth, over and beyond the pale of the Catholic Church, ‘the reign of love and justice’ … What are they going to produce? … A mere verbal and chimerical construction in which we shall see, glowing in a jumble, and in seductive confusion, the words Liberty, Justice, Fraternity, Love, Equality, and human exultation, all resting upon an ill-understood human dignity. It will be a tumultuous agitation, sterile for the end proposed, but which will benefit the less Utopian exploiters of the people. Yes, we can truly say that the Sillon, its eyes fixed on a chimera, brings Socialism in its train.” (Apostolic Letter Notre Charge Apostolique ["Our Apostolic Mandate"] to the French Bishops, August 15, 1910, condemning the movement Le Sillon)
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Benedict XV

BENEDICT XV (1914-1922):
The condemnation of socialism should never be forgotten
“It is not our intention here to repeat the arguments which clearly expose the errors of Socialism and of similar doctrines. Our predecessor, Leo XIII, most wisely did so in truly memorable Encyclicals; and you, Venerable Brethren, will take the greatest care that those grave precepts are never forgotten, but that whenever circumstances call for it, they should be clearly expounded and inculcated in Catholic associations and congresses, in sermons and in the Catholic press.” (Encyclical Ad Beatissimi Apostolorum, November 1, 1914, n. 13)

PIUS XI (1922-1939):
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Pius XI (1922-1939): “No one can be at the same time a good Catholic and a true socialist.”
Socialism, fundamentally contrary to Christian truth
“… For Socialism, which could then be termed almost a single system and which maintained definite teachings reduced into one body of doctrine, has since then split chiefly into two sections, often opposing each other and even bitterly hostile, without either one however abandoning a position fundamentally contrary to Christian truth that was characteristic of Socialism.” (Encyclical Quadragesimo Anno, May 15, 1931, n. 111)

Socialism cannot be reconciled with Catholic Doctrine
“But what if Socialism has really been so tempered and modified as to the class struggle and private ownership that there is in it no longer anything to be censured on these points? Has it thereby renounced its contradictory nature to the Christian religion? This is the question that holds many minds in suspense. And numerous are the Catholics who, although they clearly understand that Christian principles can never be abandoned or diminished seem to turn their eyes to the Holy See and earnestly beseech Us to decide whether this form of Socialism has so far recovered from false doctrines that it can be accepted without the sacrifice of any Christian principle and in a certain sense be baptized. That We, in keeping with Our fatherly solicitude, may answer their petitions, We make this pronouncement: Whether considered as a doctrine, or an historical fact, or a movement, Socialism, if it remains truly Socialism, even after it has yielded to truth and justice on the points which we have mentioned, cannot be reconciled with the teachings of the Catholic Church because its concept of society itself is utterly foreign to Christian truth.” (Ibid. n. 117)

Catholic Socialism, a contradiction
“[Socialism] is based nevertheless on a theory of human society peculiar to itself and irreconcilable with true Christianity. Religious socialism, Christian socialism, are contradictory terms; no one can be at the same time a good Catholic and a true socialist.” (Ibid. n. 120)
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Pius XII

PIUS XII (1939-1958):
The Church will fight to the end, in defense of supreme values threatened by socialism
“[The Church undertook] the protection of the individual and the family against a current threatening to bring about a total socialization which in the end would make the specter of the ‘Leviathan’ become a shocking reality. The Church will fight this battle to the end, for it is a question of supreme values: the dignity of man and the salvation of souls.” (“Radio message to the Katholikentag of Vienna,” September 14, 1952 in Discorsi e Radiomessaggi, vol. XIV, p. 314)

The state can not be regarded as being above all
“To consider the State as something ultimate to which everything else should be subordinated and directed, cannot fail to harm the true and lasting prosperity of nations.” (Encyclical Summi Pontificatus, October 20, 1939, n. 60)
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John XXIII

JOHN XXIII (1958-1963):
“No Catholic could subscribe even to moderate socialism”
“Pope Pius XI further emphasized the fundamental opposition between Communism and Christianity, and made it clear that no Catholic could subscribe even to moderate Socialism. The reason is that Socialism is founded on a doctrine of human society which is bounded by time and takes no account of any objective other than that of material well-being. Since, therefore, it proposes a form of social organization which aims solely at production, it places too severe a restraint on human liberty, at the same time flouting the true notion of social authority.” (Encyclical Mater et Magistra, May 15, 1961, n. 34)



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Paul VI
PAUL VI (1963-1978):
Too often Christians tend to idealize socialism
“Too often Christians attracted by socialism tend to idealize it in terms which, apart from anything else, are very general: a will for justice, solidarity and equality. They refuse to recognize the limitations of the historical socialist movements, which remain conditioned by the ideologies from which they originated.” (Apostolic Letter Octogesima Adveniens, May 14, 1971, n. 31)

Pope_John_Paul_II.jpg
John Paul II (1978-2005)
JOHN PAUL II (1978-2005):
Socialism: Danger of a “simple and radical solution”
“It may seem surprising that ‘socialism’ appeared at the beginning of the Pope’s critique of solutions to the ‘question of the working class’ at a time when ‘socialism’ was not yet in the form of a strong and powerful State, with all the resources which that implies, as was later to happen. However, he correctly judged the danger posed to the masses by the attractive presentation of this simple and radical solution to the ‘question of the working class.’” (Encyclical Centesimus Annus − On the 100th anniversary of Pope Leo XIII’s Rerum Novarum, May 1, 1991, n. 12)

Fundamental error of socialism: A mistaken conception of the person
“Continuing our reflections, … we have to add that the fundamental error of socialism is anthropological in nature. Socialism considers the individual person simply as an element, a molecule within the social organism, so that the good of the individual is completely subordinated to the functioning of the socio-economic mechanism. Socialism likewise maintains that the good of the individual can be realized without reference to his free choice, to the unique and exclusive responsibility which he exercises in the face of good or evil. Man is thus reduced to a series of social relationships, and the concept of the person as the autonomous subject of moral decision disappears, the very subject whose decisions build the social order. From this mistaken conception of the person there arise both a distortion of law, which defines the sphere of the exercise of freedom, and an opposition to private property.” (Ibid, n. 13)
BENEDICT XVI (2005 – present):

“We do not need a State which regulates and controls everything”
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Benedict XVI

“The State which would provide everything, absorbing everything into itself, would ultimately become a mere bureaucracy incapable of guaranteeing the very thing which the suffering person − every person − needs: namely, loving personal concern. We do not need a State which regulates and controls everything, but a State which, in accordance with the principle of subsidiarity, generously acknowledges and supports initiatives arising from the different social forces and combines spontaneity with closeness to those in need. … In the end, the claim that just social structures would make works of charity superfluous masks a materialist conception of man: the mistaken notion that man can live ‘by bread alone’ (Mt 4:4; cf. Dt 8:3) − a conviction that demeans man and ultimately disregards all that is specifically human.” (Encyclical Deus Caritas Est, December 25, 2005, n. 28)

HT: TFP.org

reply to post by Missing Blue Sky


The Popes have always been corrupted.
Jesus saves. Popes steal from the followers of Jesus.

reply to post by ImAnAlienOnMyOwnPlanet


Wow....look at what your thread, that began so innocently, has become....a massive debate....

reply to post by Skyfloating


Tell me about hun. We're all crazed people. We should just make our own country and have a economy made of donuts and love.

Originally posted by ImAnAlienOnMyOwnPlanet
Tell me about hun. We're all crazed people. We should just make our own country and have a economy made of donuts and love.

You must be feeling like an alien on your own planet.

I could live off donuts and love...sounds good...Im in.