My personal take on Freemasonry, why i didn't join., page 6

posted on Nov, 8 2010 @ 09:38 PM

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Originally posted by wcitizen
If a mason, of high degree - say above 33

There is no such thing and the Degrees do not imply rank or privilege.

- sexually abused a child, and the other freemasons (some from every degree) had real hard evidence that he had done this, would they inform the police and testify against him in a court where the judge was not a freemason?

Yes, but this would probably be after I beat the s*** out of him for child abuse, which I personally think is one of the most reprehensible things an adult can do.

JoshNorton

posted on Nov, 8 2010 @ 11:03 PM

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Originally posted by wcitizen
Ok. Here's a hypothetical question for the masons on this thread. If a mason, of high degree - say above 33 - sexually abused a child, and the other freemasons (some from every degree) had real hard evidence that he had done this, would they inform the police and testify against him in a court where the judge was not a freemason?

He'd be turned into the police, prosecuted to the full extent of the law, convicted, and as a felon, kicked out of Masonry.

KSigMason

posted on Nov, 8 2010 @ 11:25 PM

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reply to post by wcitizen

As a Mason we are charged to be good citizens and to be good, moral men so yes I would do the right thing. He would be punished and expelled from the fraternity.

Plus, who cares if the Judge was a Freemason. That shouldn't matter as he should be doing his job and not abusing his power invested in him. What's the difference between a Judge being a Freemason and a Judge being a member of any other civic organization or religious organization?

reply to post by moltquedelo

I disagree with the loner analogy as there is a shared experience as well as a some personal experience in real life. I knew many before joining and plus throughout the ceremony you are told what you are doing and why. We give the person chances to stop if they so choose. These men are some of my best friends, and, some, mentors.

You could tell me your interpretation of what you think you know about the 1st degree ceremony. I don't mean to be rude.

Calender

posted on Nov, 9 2010 @ 12:00 AM

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Originally posted by getreadyalready
reply to post by Dr Cosma

As a Mason, I have never asked to endorse or denounce anything, or any God, demi-God, or idol. We demand that you are not an Atheist, and that you believe in "one, ever-living God." We do not specify what the name of your God is. .

I believe this to be true. If I remember correctly, and someone here correct me if I'm wrong, in that Freemason Bible I used to have somewhere in the beginning it also stated that you have to believe that the soul is immortal. I am very certain of reading that, actually 100% certain of it.

Yet in that same Bible (a KJV) at Ezekiel 18:4 it states that the soul that sins it will die.

So you cannot be a Christian and accept the tenants of Freemasonry. True, you have so-called Christians that are freemasons, and they are supposed Christians. But one cannot accept a false teaching that goes against the healthful word of truth in the Bible and still claim to have a form of worship that is acceptable to God.

I understand that, as you yourself stated, in Freemasonry all forms of worship are permitted. That I get, and accept. But it would be very wrong for a person to still claim to be Christian and accept this false teaching of the immortality of the soul which, without one iota of a doubt, comes from Babylon. That this statement is of little importance to those who don't believe in the Bible is understood, but that it be of importance to anyone claiming to be a follower of the God of the Bible, cannot be denied.

JoshNorton

posted on Nov, 9 2010 @ 12:07 AM

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reply to post by Calender

Just curious, do you throw stones at adulterers? Do you wear clothing of mixed fibers? Do you shave your beard? Would you touch a woman who was menstruating? Because there are biblical laws about all of those things that you should theoretically be following if you're as devout a Christian as you claim to be...

Calender

posted on Nov, 9 2010 @ 12:15 AM

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Originally posted by JoshNorton
reply to post by Calender

Just curious, do you throw stones at adulterers? Do you wear clothing of mixed fibers? Do you shave your beard? Would you touch a woman who was menstruating? Because there are biblical laws about all of those things that you should theoretically be following if you're as devout a Christian as you claim to be...

All of the above*-quoted come from commands in the law given by God to Moses for the Israelites while they were awaiting the promised Messiah. When the Messiah, which means Christ, or anointed-one, arrived, he did away with the law, that was a tutor that lead to the Christ.

Christians are under no obligation to fulfill the law of Moses. A devote Christian is free, while an Israelite lived under slavery to the law which condemned them to sin and death.

The two women that Abraham* had children with spell out a prophetic drama between the two systems very succcently for us. For one, Sarah, was a free woman, and she is Jerusalem above, who is our mother, while Hagar was the slave woman, and represents the Israelites who were enslaved to the law given to Moses at mouth Sinai:

(Galatians 4:24-26) . . .These things stand as a symbolic drama; for these [women] mean two covenants, the one from Mount Si′nai, which brings forth children for slavery, and which is Ha′gar. 25 Now this Ha′gar means Si′nai, a mountain in Arabia, and she corresponds with the Jerusalem today, for she is in slavery with her children. 26 But the Jerusalem above is free, and she is our mother.

(Galatians 3:24-25) . . .Consequently the Law has become our tutor leading to Christ, that we might be declared righteous due to faith. 25 But now that the faith has arrived, we are no longer under a tutor.

edit on 9-11-2010 by Calender because: spelling and also consistency

Saurus

posted on Nov, 9 2010 @ 05:21 AM

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Originally posted by wcitizen

...but since, by your own admission, you are not given the meaning of the rituals you undertake before taking them, how can you possibly know what goes on in the levels above yours?

If I may jump in here and explain with an example,,,

A friend of mine and I were initiated into freemasonry in two consecutive meetings, so we have grown together in freemasonry. After we were master masons, we decided to explore the 'higher' degrees (I am using this terminology deliberately in order to illustrate my point.) I joined the Order of the Secret Monitor, and my friend joined the Rose Croix (which is English Masonry's equivalent of the Scottish Rite, and also has 33degrees.)

As we progressed through the higher degrees, I confirmed through experience that in the rite I followed, all of the popular accusations against the 'higher' degrees were false, Similarly, my friend confirmed that all of the degrees in the rite he followed were equally innocent of the accusations leveled against it. I trust my friend, and I know what he says is the truth. He trusts me equally well. So now, we are both 'high' level masons in our respective rites. I do not know what happens in his, and he does not know what happens in mine. But we both know that they are both completely innocent.

I belong to more than just one side order, and the others are equally innocent. In the same way, through my network of masonic friends, I have confirmed that ALL of the rites that are recognized by Freemasonry are innocent.

So I don't know what happens in other degrees, but I have no fear of them, and will thus gladly venture blindly into them, knowing that there is nothing that goes against my morals or values.

Saurus

posted on Nov, 9 2010 @ 05:24 AM

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Originally posted by AugustusMasonicus

Originally posted by wcitizen

What is the first lesson?

To be Truthful and Honest.

In my opinion, I thought that Network Dude was referring to the first lesson 'literally' - being the lesson of trust, where the candidate is asked to follow his leader with a firm but humble confidence...

edit on 9/11/2010 by Saurus because: (no reason given)

Saurus

posted on Nov, 9 2010 @ 05:31 AM

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Originally posted by wcitizen
Ok. Here's a hypothetical question for the masons on this thread. If a mason, of high degree - say above 33 - sexually abused a child, and the other freemasons (some from every degree) had real hard evidence that he had done this, would they inform the police and testify against him in a court where the judge was not a freemason?

A third degree master mason, the worshipful master of his lodge, who (being the master of the lodge) is higher ranked than the 33° mason, would have him expelled from freemasonry.

I am sure that every mason there would ensure that he was locked away for life, and that the police and courts would show no mercy.

vinay86

posted on Nov, 9 2010 @ 05:47 AM

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reply to post by BluePillOrRedPill

Masons are pure evil people they just lure you into joining them by offering a great material wealth and rob you from your spiritual wealth and only the older and higher degrees masons know the secrets, I am from india and there are many lodges in india and almost 20000 people strength and growing, and all of their heads are supreme court judges, army people, politicians etc all from ruling class and no common man this alone shows that these masons are actively in the govt. and ruling us. I am just sick of these masons.

I want to draw your attention to the movie from hell in this movie it was shown that these masons are further ruled by other worldly entities whom one character mentions as the great architect, so you can see from where all those bizarre rituals have came from.

network dude

posted on Nov, 9 2010 @ 06:42 AM

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Originally posted by Saurus

Originally posted by AugustusMasonicus

Originally posted by wcitizen

What is the first lesson?

To be Truthful and Honest.

In my opinion, I thought that Network Dude was referring to the first lesson 'literally' - being the lesson of trust, where the candidate is asked to follow his leader with a firm but humble confidence...
edit on 9/11/2010 by Saurus because: (no reason given)

that is what I was trying to get across. Follow your conductor and fear no danger. You have to trust that he will lead you safely. If you can't do that, then you will find the reason for the cable tow.

TheLoneArcher

posted on Nov, 9 2010 @ 06:58 AM

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reply to post by vinay86

Offering great material wealth? WOW! I certainly joined the wrong Lodge. We are never promised material wealth in British Freemasonry. The only scheme I have heard of that does is MLM marketing. Now, spiritual wealth I can understand. Well being and a sense of brotherly love I can understand.

Please Sir, show me an advertisement from one of your Indian Lodges that promotes material wealth, or a website. Any thing that I can read or refer to.

TheLoneArcher

posted on Nov, 9 2010 @ 07:00 AM

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reply to post by JoshNorton

Regardless of who he is, if I was aware of any fellow Mason comitting a crime, I wold be duty bound to report him to the police and do all in my power to have him expelled from the Lodge. Masonry is NOT above the law, regardless of what anyone thinks.

AugustusMasonicus

posted on Nov, 9 2010 @ 07:14 AM

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Originally posted by Saurus
In my opinion, I thought that Network Dude was referring to the first lesson 'literally' - being the lesson of trust, where the candidate is asked to follow his leader with a firm but humble confidence...
edit on 9/11/2010 by Saurus because: (no reason given)

I agree, it also extends to others. From my State's Entered Apprentice Lecture:

Truth is a divine attribute and the foundation of every virtue. To be good men and true is the first lesson we are taught in Freemasonry...

Masonic Light

posted on Nov, 9 2010 @ 07:58 AM

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Originally posted by wcitizen
Ok. Here's a hypothetical question for the masons on this thread. If a mason, of high degree - say above 33 - sexually abused a child, and the other freemasons (some from every degree) had real hard evidence that he had done this, would they inform the police and testify against him in a court where the judge was not a freemason?

It doesn't matter what degrees a Mason holds. If he commits a crime, not only he is prosecuted in the criminal courts, but also in a Masonic court. If found guilty of a felony in a criminal court, he is automatically expelled from the fraternity.

KSigMason

posted on Nov, 9 2010 @ 11:26 AM

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reply to post by Calender

You're stretching here. Plus, King James was a Freemason, FYI. So you're saying that those who ascend into Heaven with the Almighty don't do this forever? You are putting a finite time-line on God's graces?

I'm a licensed minister of Christ and Freemason, and have never found anything that contradicted by Faith. Also being a Sir Knight of the Order of the Temple, I take great insult to you saying that I am a "so-called" Christian. My relationship between God and me is between us only, and no one else.

reply to post by vinay86

You incorrect from the word go. We don't lure men into joining as we don't recruit. The man must request to join. Nor do we promise material wealth upon joining nor do we sacrifice your spirituality. Your Faith is left for you to decide. We only require that you have one.

Freemasonry has men from all walks of life, but there are annual dues/fees that you must pay to stay in good standing.

It is laughable that you are using Hollywood, fiction, as evidence of Masonic evil.

edit on 9-11-2010 by KSigMason because: (no reason given)

defcon5

posted on Nov, 9 2010 @ 11:37 PM

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The following is my opinion as a member participating in this discussion.

Originally posted by Saurus
I would say "some" and not "the majority".

I doubt that the majority have studied anything about pagan religion, Gnosticism, or the occult. To most its simply a club/charity and nothing more.

Originally posted by Saurus
I disagree. In the second degree, Masons are told to find the hidden meanings behind the symbols and allegory.

I know that you're told explanations, but not I am not so sure they are the REAL explanations rather then good sounding substitutes.

For example, You most likely know that the Easter Star is a symbol for Venus, which going back to the Ancient Greeks was known as Lucifer (“The Light Bearer”). Did you know that this same entity, according to occult sources, reigns over the realm of air, represented by the colors blue and silver, the same colors seen throughout Freemasonry? Another example is the respect shown to the first artificers, Jubal/Tubal Cain. These two men were not only descendants of Cain, but also produced the first weapons used to murder other men, the first musical instruments, and the first alcohol. They are mentioned in several sources as having been possessed by demons, as well as using alcohol and music to inflame the lusts of people and seduce the children of Seth.

Originally posted by Saurus
It isn't sinister. I, as someone who is very interested in esoteric and occult studies, find Freemasonry to be very conservative in its teachings…

So you feel its acceptable for someone who considers themselves a Christian to belong to an organization whom either intentionally or coincidentally has symbolism such as I mentioned above?

Just the fact that masons seem to always defend these types of issues, and never seem to question them is the most telling aspect in my opinion.

Originally posted by Saurus
In my opinion, Freemasonry is an excellent organization for traditional Christians to belong to. We may, however, differ in the definition of "traditional." I believe the test lies in whether or not you are comfortable praying with people of different faiths under one roof.

That is the biggest problem that my religion has with Freemasonry, the generalization of God into one generic god.

Originally posted by Saurus
If you find the poem offensive, then you would probably have a problem with Freemasonry. If you're comfortable with it, then, as a Christian, you would have absolutely no problem with the teachings, and it would do a lot to strengthen your Christian faith.

I do not hold that my God is the same God that other religions consider to be their gods. I have spent time in and around other religions, I have attended services with other religions, but I do not pray to their gods.

Originally posted by Saurus
However, the tone of your post suggests that you think these meanings are sinister. Although many are esoteric in nature, I can assure you that they are not sinister…

I tried to write that as carefully as possible, yet maybe I did not convey it correctly. To me there are unchristian aspects to masonry; others of other religions may have no issue with these things. For a non-Christian, masonry may be a great thing, but I find it to be an unchristian thing. I believe that anyone who is a mason and considers themselves a Christian needs to re-examine their relationship with God. Remember that Christ said that you can only serve on master, in this instance either Christ or Freemasonry.

Originally posted by Saurus
My lodge does the same (at the dinners after the meeting, which is what I assume you mean). It is certainly not a major no-no. The chaplain is Christian and says a Christian Prayer. The non Christians do not bat an eyelid, because it is understood that each prays according to his own faith.

Yes, it was at a dinner.
I have been there for promotions, etc.

Originally posted by Saurus
Freemasonry draws on the teachings of many, many faiths, and highlights the morals that are common to all. Note the use of the word "morals" here - Freemasonry teaches a moral system, not a path to salvation. That is up to religion.

I understand that its about moral lessons and such, but isn’t the end goal to attain a type of godhood, similar to other religions such as gnosticism?

As an ATS Staff Member, I will not moderate in threads such as this where I have participated as a member.

HomerinNC

posted on Nov, 9 2010 @ 11:56 PM

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reply to post by getreadyalready

I'm hoping I can petition my local lodge after the holidays, I have read alot about the camaraderie the Masons have, and I'd like to be a part of it, and become a better, more knowledgeable person as a result. Maybe this would also help put my legal past behind me

defcon5

posted on Nov, 9 2010 @ 11:59 PM

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The following is my opinion as a member participating in this discussion.

Originally posted by getreadyalready
If you did not join how have you been a lodge during a prayer?

It was a dinner after an election/ promotion ceremony. I have been to numerous such things at lodges over the years.

Originally posted by getreadyalready
Anyhow, if someone is well versed in religion, then they know there is nothing more "pagan" than Christianity!

Depends on your version of Christianity. Technically most of the Pagan stuff in Christianity entered it through Roman Catholic Church, who were attempting to convert pagans over into Christianity with minimal problems. I, however, am a protestant for that exact same reason.

Originally posted by getreadyalready
The majority of "Christian" holidays are never mentioned in the Bible, but they are celebrated as National holidays in the common worship of the almighty dollar!

You are absolutely correct. Christmas as celebrated in the US today, for example, is not even a Christian holiday, but rather was more of a mish-mash of traditions put into place by both the US Government and various retailers. There is nothing Christian about Christmas. Easter on the other hand is celebrated at the correct time of year for the death and resurrection of Christ, which we can accurately date due to its relation to Passover. Easter dates back to the earliest of Christians including Polycarp of Smyrna, student of John the Apostle.

Originally posted by getreadyalready
There is far more idolatry in Judaism and Christianity than in Masonry as well.

Your confusing Catholicism with Christianity here as well. There was a time when Catholicism encompassed all of Christendom, but that time is long since gone, though many wish to pretend things are still that way when it suits them in attacking Christianity as a whole.

As an ATS Staff Member, I will not moderate in threads such as this where I have participated as a member.

JoshNorton

posted on Nov, 10 2010 @ 12:21 AM

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Originally posted by defcon5
That is the biggest problem that my religion has with Freemasonry, the generalization of God into one generic god.

...

I do not hold that my God is the same God that other religions consider to be their gods. I have spent time in and around other religions, I have attended services with other religions, but I do not pray to their gods.

Just curious, but how many omniscient, omnipotent, omnipresent beings do you suppose there are?