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My personal take on Freemasonry, why i didn't join.

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posted on Oct, 21 2010 @ 07:30 AM
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Originally posted by excelents
Do I believe in a Supreme Being, Stellar Force ? Great Architect ? Well I believe that we are all part of something universal whatever the name given to that force but will only find that out when I pass over.


In whom do you put your trust?



posted on Oct, 21 2010 @ 02:16 PM
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Originally posted by Masonic Light

Originally posted by excelents
Do I believe in a Supreme Being, Stellar Force ? Great Architect ? Well I believe that we are all part of something universal whatever the name given to that force but will only find that out when I pass over.


In whom do you put your trust?


In all cases of difficulty and danger ?



posted on Oct, 21 2010 @ 02:49 PM
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reply to post by Masonic Light
 


I think your question has been answered. NO.

Not even close.



posted on Oct, 21 2010 @ 02:50 PM
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reply to post by excelents
 


Excelents, although from your other posts, I was fairly certain that you are a Mason, I have to say that I am rather puzzled at your answer to the question posted by Masonic Light above.

I'm not suggesting anything - I'm just saying that since you are a Mason, I am surprised by your answer...



edit on 21/10/2010 by Saurus because: (no reason given)



posted on Oct, 21 2010 @ 03:48 PM
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Originally posted by Saurus
reply to post by excelents
 


Excelents, although from your other posts, I was fairly certain that you are a Mason, I have to say that I am rather puzzled at your answer to the question posted by Masonic Light above.

I'm not suggesting anything - I'm just saying that since you are a Mason, I am surprised by your answer...



edit on 21/10/2010 by Saurus because: (no reason given)


I was merely pointing out the piece of ritual that is asked prior to the original question that was asked. At my Masonic interview I was asked "Do I believe in Supreme Being" the answer I gave back then was yes I was not however asked "Do I believe in God" therefore as I stated in my previous answer I believe in a universal force that unites us all, and of course the only way we discover that is when we pass over.

However I can assure you that I am the WM of my Lodge.


edit on 21-10-2010 by excelents because: (no reason given)

edit on 21-10-2010 by excelents because: (no reason given)



posted on Oct, 21 2010 @ 04:13 PM
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reply to post by excelents
 


Maybe you are the WM, but I doubt it is a lodge of Free and Accepted Masons. I even doubt that it is a Prince Hall Lodge. There are some online versions, and the International Masons and some other clandestine operations. I suspect your lodge is one of those entities. I have been to many lodges in many states and I have never heard the question or the answer that you supplied.



posted on Oct, 21 2010 @ 04:30 PM
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Originally posted by getreadyalready
reply to post by excelents
 


Maybe you are the WM, but I doubt it is a lodge of Free and Accepted Masons. I even doubt that it is a Prince Hall Lodge. There are some online versions, and the International Masons and some other clandestine operations. I suspect your lodge is one of those entities. I have been to many lodges in many states and I have never heard the question or the answer that you supplied.


It is registered on the register of the United Grand Lodge of England. I was installed into the Chair of KS in September.

The answer that I gave wasn't meant to be the answer to the original question. The answer I gave as stated was the line in the ritual that we use in our Lodge, that line coming before the first question and was intended as proof that I am what I said I was in other words

"Mr A.B, In all cases of difficulty and danger in whom do you place your trust" the answer to that given by the Candidate which is usually whispered to him via the J.D is that of "God".
edit on 21-10-2010 by excelents because: (no reason given)

edit on 21-10-2010 by excelents because: (no reason given)



posted on Oct, 22 2010 @ 01:36 AM
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Its Interesting,

I have always been fascinated by the Freemasons and other "secret societies" always wondered how to join etc. What were they REALLY about? The whole mystery always caught my attention.

I live in a small town in Wisconsin, only about 10,000 people, small college town, 30-40 minutes from the Twin Cities in Minesota, alot of old buildings, but I never really paid to much attention to them. Then one day only this past 3 months, I noticed this building that was being renovated, and what cought my attention was the Freemasonry Insignia on it!

Who'd of thought here in this town there was a lodge. I checked the large stone above the door and it said "Freemasonry Temple" or something along those lines, I'll have to check again. The wierd thing is, I dont remember what it said before that, I dont ever remember those words being there, or those insignia's, but of course I could of just been blissfully unaware since it is my home town, and you tend to not notice as much in areas your comfortable.

Edit:

I just thought.. alot of important people have passed through this small town, I always found that kinda funny. When we had a train track going through our town we had 2 Presidents stop by (our town was less than 8000 people at that time, kinda small for presidents to be stopping by no?) One was Kennedy (I think). The other I dont quite remember. Both I think were "supposedly" part of the Freemasonry though were they not? (I could be mistaken). President Bush also rolled through here (why would he stop in this small town, I caught myself thinking again). Thats 3 presidents who stopped here.

I dont know MAYBE it has something to do with the fact there is a Freemasonry temple?
edit on 22-10-2010 by CrimsonSetyr because: (no reason given)



posted on Oct, 22 2010 @ 07:27 AM
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Originally posted by CrimsonSetyr

I live in a small town in Wisconsin, only about 10,000 people, small college town, 30-40 minutes from the Twin Cities in Minesota, alot of old buildings, but I never really paid to much attention to them. Then one day only this past 3 months, I noticed this building that was being renovated, and what cought my attention was the Freemasonry Insignia on it!

Who'd of thought here in this town there was a lodge. I checked the large stone above the door and it said "Freemasonry Temple" or something along those lines, I'll have to check again. The wierd thing is, I dont remember what it said before that, I dont ever remember those words being there, or those insignia's, but of course I could of just been blissfully unaware since it is my home town, and you tend to not notice as much in areas your comfortable.


Almost every town in the United States has a Masonic Lodge. Larger cities often have many.


One was Kennedy (I think). The other I dont quite remember. Both I think were "supposedly" part of the Freemasonry though were they not? (I could be mistaken). President Bush also rolled through here (why would he stop in this small town, I caught myself thinking again). Thats 3 presidents who stopped here.

I dont know MAYBE it has something to do with the fact there is a Freemasonry temple?
edit on 22-10-2010 by CrimsonSetyr because: (no reason given)


Neither Kennedy nor Bush were/are Freemasons. Here is a list of the US Presidents who were Masons:

Masonic Presidents of the United States



posted on Oct, 22 2010 @ 09:14 AM
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reply to post by CrimsonSetyr
 


My county has almost 50 lodges in it, 30 within the city limits. Presidents don't come here particularly often.



posted on Oct, 28 2010 @ 08:03 PM
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Originally posted by excelents


"Mr A.B, In all cases of difficulty and danger in whom do you place your trust" the answer to that given by the Candidate which is usually whispered to him via the J.D is that of "God".
edit on 21-10-2010 by excelents because: (no reason given)

edit on 21-10-2010 by excelents because: (no reason given)


are you sure you are a member of an F& AM or AF& AM lodge? first off, it would be the SD standing beside the initiate, and secondly, that answer is never given, it must come from the heart or there is no need to go any further. I will not discount you just yet, but your answers are a bit rusty if nothing else.



posted on Oct, 28 2010 @ 10:50 PM
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Originally posted by network dude

Originally posted by excelents


"Mr A.B, In all cases of difficulty and danger in whom do you place your trust" the answer to that given by the Candidate which is usually whispered to him via the J.D is that of "God".
edit on 21-10-2010 by excelents because: (no reason given)

edit on 21-10-2010 by excelents because: (no reason given)


are you sure you are a member of an F& AM or AF& AM lodge? first off, it would be the SD standing beside the initiate, and secondly, that answer is never given, it must come from the heart or there is no need to go any further. I will not discount you just yet, but your answers are a bit rusty if nothing else.


Ritual varies more from jurisdiction to jurisdiction that you seem to think. I'm not sure about the SD/JD issue, but I can assure you that in /many/ jurisdictions that answer is prompted or the candidate is prepared in advance.



posted on Oct, 28 2010 @ 11:10 PM
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Originally posted by getreadyalready

His answer was intentionally vague, because you have to experience the ceremony first hand. It is against our obligation to tell it to you in advance.



When you find that the terms and conditions are inside the box after you have already purchased the product, legally, those T & C are void. Any contract which you enter into unknowingly is not valid.

This "vagueness" about the ceremony is sly and underhanded and anyone who blindly takes an oath, not fully understanding what he is doing, is a fool. If it were a legitimate organization, they would allow full disclosure up front and people would be free to ask questions and get satisfactory answers.

I think the reason many people get entrapped in organizations like this is because of the personal gain they perceive---the networking and lucrative business contacts and profits. I think the esoteric gets pushed aside when one has stars in their eyes and the organization uses this as leverage to keep one blinded. Initiates do not stop to consider what their own obligations will be once they are p*wned.



posted on Oct, 28 2010 @ 11:15 PM
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The following is my opinion as a member participating in this discussion.

reply to post by BluePillOrRedPill
 


I agree with your reasons, and personally didn’t join because of similar values. I believe that the majority of Masons really don’t even know what their symbolism means beyond what they are told by the organization, and for most its nothing more then a social club so they never dig any deeper. You will get all kinds of reasons, from masons, explaining how it’s all very innocent, and there is no hidden meaning behind of their symbols other then in minds of anti-Masonic fanatics, religious loons, and crazy people.

Yet…I know there are some masons, including at least one right in this thread, who know that there is more to masonry then the majority of normal members themselves understand. However, they will never admit to there being even the remotest possibility of anything sinister about masonry, because in their books it’s not sinister. Its not anything a Christian in the traditional sense should be engaging in, but as most of these “in the know” masons are not traditional Christians anyway, they see nothing wrong with it.

As I stated above, the overall Christian/Masonic majority have not studied religion or paganism in enough depth to understand there are meanings beyond what their secret coded Masonic handbook tells them they mean. I have even been present in a lodge when a member ended a Prayer in “Christ’s Name”, a major no-no, as not all Masons believe in Christ, but as it was a Christian dominated lodge not even an eyebrow was raised. So what I am saying, is there are Christians in Masonry simply because they don’t know any better, and in such numbers in the US that they actually consider many of their lodges to be Christian.

However, as a Christian thinking of joining, at the very least, you should ask yourself, “ Considering that I am only supposed to be re-born once into Christianity, is it right for me to go through another re-birth into masonry”? Don’t most Christians hold it true that you have one baptism for the remission of sins, and are reborn once into the family of Christ? It doesn’t say “You have one baptism for the remission of sins, but hey, hoodwinking is ok as god is a mason too…. Then the clouds parted and a voice from above said, “Tubalcain Ya’ll!”, and there was much rejoicing…”

It has been admitted, and I can dig up the sources here if need be, that Freemasonry is actually related to both Kabala and Gnosticism. While there are such things as Gnostic Christians, I think that most Christians would find the differences between Gnostic Christianity and actual Christianity to be extreme to say the least. For example, Gnostics believe that Yahweh is what is referred to as the Demiurge, in some Gnostic beliefs an evil god and the opposite of what a Christian should believe. They also believe that Jesus was at best an example of what a true Gnostic can become, and at worst a false messiah, but they all deny that he was Christ.

Anyway, I could go into much more, but I will just leave it by saying that I believe you made the correct choice for a proper Christian to make under those circumstances.


As an ATS Staff Member, I will not moderate in threads such as this where I have participated as a member.



posted on Oct, 29 2010 @ 01:46 AM
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Originally posted by Alethea
When you find that the terms and conditions are inside the box after you have already purchased the product, legally, those T & C are void.
Not necessarily true.


Any contract which you enter into unknowingly is not valid.
Except you're given every opportunity to leave at any point, before, during, or after the initiation. And that there are three degrees, if you even thought there might be something hinkey, there's nothing forcing you to continue on. People leave Masonry all the time, for any number of reasons, with no repercussions whatsoever. It's not for everybody. We never claimed that it was.



posted on Oct, 29 2010 @ 05:22 AM
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reply to post by defcon5
 


Nice post, and well thought out, but I do have some comments...


I agree with your reasons, and personally didn’t join because of similar values. I believe that the majority of Masons really don’t even know what their symbolism means beyond what they are told by the organization, and for most its nothing more then a social club so they never dig any deeper.


I would say "some" and not "the majority".


You will get all kinds of reasons, from masons, explaining how it’s all very innocent, and there is no hidden meaning behind of their symbols other then in minds of anti-Masonic fanatics, religious loons, and crazy people.


I disagree. In the second degree, Masons are told to find the hidden meanings behind the symbols and allegory.


Yet…I know there are some masons, including at least one right in this thread, who know that there is more to masonry then the majority of normal members themselves understand.


Absolutely! I am learning and understanding new things from Freemasonry every day. There is so much symbolism, it takes a lifetime to discover everything Freemasonry has to teach.


However, they will never admit to there being even the remotest possibility of anything sinister about masonry, because in their books it’s not sinister.


It isn't sinister. I, as someone who is very interested in esoteric and occult studies, find Freemasonry to be very conservative in its teachings..


Its not anything a Christian in the traditional sense should be engaging in, but as most of these “in the know” masons are not traditional Christians anyway, they see nothing wrong with it.


In my opinion, Freemasonry is an excellent organization for traditional Christians to belong to. We may, however, differ in the definition of "traditional." I believe the test lies in whether or not you are comfortable praying with people of different faiths under one roof.

Take the following poem:


At the Muezzin's call for prayer
The kneeling faithful thronged the square;
Amid a monastery's weeds,
An old Franciscan told his beads,

While on Pushkara's lofty height
A dark priest chanted Brahma's might,
While to the synagogue there came
A Jew, to praise Jehovah's Name.

The One Great God looked down and smiled
And counted each His loving child;
For Turk and Brahmin, monk and Jew
Has reached Him through the gods they knew.

[Author Unknown]


If you find the poem offensive, then you would probably have a problem with Freemasonry. If you're comfortable with it, then, as a Christian, you would have absolutely no problem with the teachings, and it would do a lot to strengthen your Christian faith.



As I stated above, the overall Christian/Masonic majority have not studied religion or paganism in enough depth to understand there are meanings beyond what their secret coded Masonic handbook tells them they mean.


Of course there are deeper meaning. I will agree that many, including myself, do not understand all the meanings. However, I work hard to try and discover their meaning. However, the tone of your post suggests that you think these meanings are sinister. Although many are esoteric in nature, I can assure you that they are not sinister. Freemasonry is like an encyclopedia - you'll only find what you're looking for.


I have even been present in a lodge when a member ended a Prayer in “Christ’s Name”, a major no-no, as not all Masons believe in Christ, but as it was a Christian dominated lodge not even an eyebrow was raised. So what I am saying, is there are Christians in Masonry simply because they don’t know any better, and in such numbers in the US that they actually consider many of their lodges to be Christian.


My lodge does the same (at the dinners after the meeting, which is what I assume you mean). It is certainly not a major no-no. The chaplain is Christian and says a Christian Prayer. The non Christians do not bat an eyelid, because it is understood that each prays according to his own faith.


It has been admitted, and I can dig up the sources here if need be, that Freemasonry is actually related to both Kabala and Gnosticism.


Freemasonry draws on the teachings of many, many faiths, and highlights the morals that are common to all. Note the use of the word "morals" here - Freemasonry teaches a moral system, not a path to salvation. That is up to religion.


While there are such things as Gnostic Christians, I think that most Christians would find the differences between Gnostic Christianity and actual Christianity to be extreme to say the least. For example, Gnostics believe that Yahweh is what is referred to as the Demiurge, in some Gnostic beliefs an evil god and the opposite of what a Christian should believe. They also believe that Jesus was at best an example of what a true Gnostic can become, and at worst a false messiah, but they all deny that he was Christ.


Freemasonry leaves it up to the individual to decide.


Anyway, I could go into much more, but I will just leave it by saying that I believe you made the correct choice for a proper Christian to make under those circumstances.


I agree that it was the correct decision for the OP, but certainly not for all 'proper Christians'.


edit on 29/10/2010 by Saurus because: (no reason given)



posted on Oct, 29 2010 @ 05:38 AM
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reply to post by driley
 


If that is the case then I apologize. I had no idea that there would be an instance where that answer would be prompted. It's one of the biggest parts of the degree for us. It would seem that if that answer was prompted, then the initiate could literally believe anything he wanted and just give the generic answer.

Thanks for the information.



posted on Oct, 29 2010 @ 08:26 AM
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reply to post by defcon5
 


If you did not join how have you been a lodge during a prayer?

You are right about the "In Christ's name part," although it is not a major no no, it is just a convention that we avoid. Someone saying a prayer is welcome to end it however they want, unless it is part of a degree where every word is scripted. We actually have a lot of impromptu prayers, such as praying for the "sick and distressed" brothers and families.

Anyhow, if someone is well versed in religion, then they know there is nothing more "pagan" than Christianity! The majority of "Christian" holidays are never mentioned in the Bible, but they are celebrated as National holidays in the common worship of the almighty dollar! There is far more idolatry in Judaism and Christianity than in Masonry as well. There is far more symbolism and mystery and weak understanding in the practice of Christianity. At least Masons make the attempt to share all available information within their membership, Catholicism intentionally hides some of their ancient knowledge.

I'm not knocking your opinion, I'm just saying that anybody with enough knowledge to see danger in the practice of Masonry, should surely see those same dangers in the practice of any organized religion. It is either naive or hypocritical to condemn one while elevating another.



posted on Oct, 29 2010 @ 08:30 AM
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reply to post by Alethea
 


There is no "contract." It is an experience. Anyone is free to walk away at anytime before or after the work. We don't ask for anything from our participants or members. We aren't sucking a piece of your life force or making you sign a 1000 page covenant with the devil. It is just something that you have to experience, and if you know the details ahead of time the experience is ruined.

There is only 1 document you ever sign to become a Mason, it is the application, and it is a matter of tax law and keeping off the DHS radar. It says you do not believe in the overthrow of the government and it has your name and address and some background information.




posted on Nov, 6 2010 @ 06:40 AM
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reply to post by network dude
 



I suspect that in my jurisdiction, the answer to that would be that the investigating committee had better do its job very well.

I'm in one of the jurisdictions that requires not just faith in a Supreme Being (or whatever similar phrase you prefer) but a monotheistic faith. During meetings with prospective members, I have had some interesting conversations about what "monotheism" might be and what qualifies as a belief in a Supreme Being. There is an entire generation of men approaching the Fraternity who are looking for something meaningful and spiritual, who have a belief in God but are wary of labels and definitions. They want to find something that moves their hearts and gives them a sense of place and engagement with the larger issues of life /without/ dogma. Freemasonry can (and, in my never humble opinion, should) fit that need. But we need to be alert to the fact that many of these men are struggling to develop a personal theology and have a hard time putting their beliefs into a nicely packaged box they can tick off on a form.

In any case, given the circumstances in which the question is put, I would be surprised if once in a while a candidate wasn't simply too flustered to think through the wording of the question and find the proper response. Nerves can do strange things to one's ability to process language, no?


edit on 6-11-2010 by driley because: silly typos caused by trying to type on a laptop that insists on wiggling around. So instead of just hunt and peck, now typing is sort of chase, hunt and peck and once in a while I peck incorrectly. I need a desk. And a filing cabinet. And a cure for insomnia. Anyway, typo, yup... that's why the fix.




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