Atheism is a lack of understanding?

I read and see various videos by Atheists these days, and about most of them all sound as much bigots as the fundamentalists, then add the excuse saying that it is reason!

THAT BURNS MAH *snip*

If reason is present in their minds, they would see why we would believe in anything. They would see how we think and be less intolerant to the religious/spiritual.

We believe in it, because it is the sole reason to live day by day. We believe in a religion or part of spirituality, so it looks like we have meaning. It helps us cope with hard times. It helps us do good, even if a reward is added from whatever religion it is.

I believe such atheism is just a lack of hope, and reason as well.

Oh, I don't know. A lot of them (at least ones around here) seem reasonably sincere. A number are profane and immature, perhaps that is what you're seeing.

There are, however, a group that are not atheists, but anti-theists. They hate the very idea of God, and anyone who accepts it. These are the more "angry atheists", and my belief is that they are not atheists at all. They have a belief of God tucked away somewhere, they just don't like the idea very much. A sane person doesn't get that upset about a fictitious being and his followers.

Originally posted by Shoomoo
I read and see various videos by Atheists these days, and about most of them all sound as much bigots as the fundamentalists, then add the excuse saying that it is reason!

People of religion and faith don't tend take to the very valid notion of extraordinary claims require extraordinary proof very well . A typical response to the logical arguments with increasingly ill rational arguments as is demonstrated above .

If reason is present in their minds, they would see why we would believe in anything.

On the contra logical reasoning does not explain why normally rational people throw logic out the window when it comes to such things as faith .

They would see how we think and be less intolerant to the religious/spiritual.

Some of my friends are Christians . Please show me how I have ever been intolerant ?

We believe in it, because it is the sole reason to live day by day.

Another absurd claim that overlooks reasons such as people living on a low income and other circumstances that might preclude people living day to day .

I believe such atheism is just a lack of hope,

Really ?
And yet I got thou the terrible after mouth of the Canterbury quake just fine .

reply to post by Shoomoo

Originally posted by Shoomoo
I read and see various videos by Atheists these days, and about most of them all sound as much bigots as the fundamentalists, then add the excuse saying that it is reason!

Examples please? I hate it when religious people make straw atheists to bash.

If reason is present in their minds, they would see why we would believe in anything. They would see how we think and be less intolerant to the religious/spiritual.

Typically atheists aren't intolerant towards it, they believe everyone has a freedom to believe what they wish. The problem is that they don't allow the beliefs they disagree with to go unchallenged.

If I'm in a group of people and religion comes up and people ask me what I think, I say I'm an atheist. I'm then bombarded with questions like "How can you know there isn't a god?" and the like.
If someone says that they are a Calvinist Christian they aren't subject to anywhere near the same level of questioning.

The intolerance tends to go the other way.

We believe in it, because it is the sole reason to live day by day.

So your reason for believing it is that you can't imagine not believing it?
Levels of contentment, comfort, and commitment are no gauge on the validity of claims nor are they reasonable claims.

We believe in a religion or part of spirituality, so it looks like we have meaning. It helps us cope with hard times. It helps us do good, even if a reward is added from whatever religion it is.

Again, comfort level is not a reasonable argument. A bizarre and arcane way to enforce moral standards is also not a reasonable argument. People aren't moral because they're religious, they're moral independently.
If you honestly believe you need a deity to be moral then you are only being moral to avoid punishment or gain reward.

I believe such atheism is just a lack of hope, and reason as well.

Well, believe what you want, but it doesn't make it true.
All you're really spitting out are the same bigoted stereotypes of the last few millennia that we atheists have gotten used to.

I have hope without religion. My hope comes from scientific and technological advances. It comes from the world being more connected than ever with greater exchanges of ideas than ever before. It comes from the various accomplishments of people. I see a better world for my future children, I don't need a deity for that.

And reason? Well, look over your post, where's your reason?

Originally posted by adjensen
There are, however, a group that are not atheists, but anti-theists.

You can be both. I'm anti-theism, but I'm not anti-all forms of it, just the major ones. I have no real problems with Ba'hai people (yes, I know at least one).

They hate the very idea of God, and anyone who accepts it.

Again, not really true for a lot of them. Some maybe, but I've yet to see anyone that's actually opposed to the idea of any deity. Just the modern ones. I have no problem with some sort of deity being true, so long as it's proven. I may have personal issue with them though.

These are the more "angry atheists", and my belief is that they are not atheists at all.

Oh not this fecal matter again.

They have a belief of God tucked away somewhere, they just don't like the idea very much.

That's about as reasonable and mature as me saying that I think all religious people have issues with their parents and are trying to resolve it by coming up with the ultimate cosmic parent. (I don't)

A sane person doesn't get that upset about a fictitious being and his followers.

Well, I have a level of anger directed towards one Edward Cullen and those who believe the Twilight books represent ideal relationship dynamics.

I have a greater issue with religions because those things that I view as most likely fictional are influencing people into making a plethora of stupid decisions. I don't tend to have many problems with people who view their deity in a nebulous way as some sort of abstract concept that doesn't really influence the day-to-day (which is the most basic level of theism), but more and more problems build the more and more that concept is defined.

And honestly, most other fictional characters don't have hundreds of millions, even billions, of followers ready to give up their life for the principles of the book they're written in while believing such fictional characters are the real deal. Most other fictional characters don't dictate the entire lives of individuals and their absolute codes of morality.

reply to post by madnessinmysoul


The number of "evil deeds" done explicitly, directly, intentionally, in the name of God is miniscule. Religion is a tool often misused to coerce people into acting in some fashion, but the reason behind this is rarely religious in nature, rather it is of exercising power. In the religious vacuum desired and proposed, something else would be used to exercise control, because it is about power, not faith.

If you believe that the good that faith does, both individually and on a global basis, is outweighed by any direct evil, you are far more delusional than any follower of faith. That religion does good is demonstrable, the evil done is slight and mostly rationalized, so thinking that the world would be peaceful without it is nonsensical.

Therefore, yes, I believe that those who get very angry about the church, who would just as soon see people like myself dead (there are a number of ATS posters who demonstrate this behaviour) are insane, incontrovertibly stupid, or raging against something other than someone else's belief.

I do not, in any way, equate this with atheism in general, as I stated. I know a number of atheists who are not these radical anti-theists, find them reasonable and a pleasure to discuss things with. For the rest of them, meh, there's clearly something else going on, and I fail to see why the reasonable view of it cannot include many who believe, whether they know it consciously or not, and don't like the idea.

Originally posted by madnessinmysoul

A sane person doesn't get that upset about a fictitious being and his followers.

Well, I have a level of anger directed towards one Edward Cullen and those who believe the Twilight books represent ideal relationship dynamics.

Missed this, sorry.

You are not angry with "Edward Cullen", you are angry with the author of the books that he appears as a character in. You are angry with people who read his books and develop an opinion that you do not agree with. Whether that anger is misplaced or not, it is anger with the real people who produce and consume that product that is Edward Cullen, because Edward Cullen is a nothing. He doesn't exist. He has no values, no qualities, no voice. You cannot be angry at nothingness (unless nothingness is what you're actually raging against :-)

I don't see my Atheism or lack of faith in religion; as a lack of hope in life. That's how I saw myself as a Christian before I became an Atheist. It's just that a person who believes in a deity could never see where I'm coming from now or what Dawkins and others present in their lectures. When I was a Christian I had faith and pretty could care less what others believed unless it revolved around my beliefs in life. Now that I'm not a religious person I study more about philosophy, psychology and religion. Not to believe it! But to see how people think and see the world we live in today and view the past and future. Atheism or being no religious in my book is more logical then following a faith which many don't understand.

Originally posted by adjensen
reply to post by madnessinmysoul

 

The number of "evil deeds" done explicitly, directly, intentionally, in the name of God is miniscule.

That's a hard thing to argue against until I see how you quantify. Can you please provide how you quantify it?

Religion is a tool often misused to coerce people into acting in some fashion, but the reason behind this is rarely religious in nature, rather it is of exercising power. In the religious vacuum desired and proposed, something else would be used to exercise control, because it is about power, not faith.

Well, faith in and of itself in its purest sense can't do anything because it's an isolated act. Of course, faith itself allows for plenty of irrational ideas.

Bribe of heaven, threat of hell, and vicarious redemption are all horrid concepts used for purely religious purposes.

If you believe that the good that faith does, both individually and on a global basis, is outweighed by any direct evil, you are far more delusional than any follower of faith.

Faith doesn't really do any good, religions do sometimes. But those religions do good because the followers of those religions are good people, not because of their faith.

That religion does good is demonstrable, the evil done is slight and mostly rationalized, so thinking that the world would be peaceful without it is nonsensical.

Therefore, yes, I believe that those who get very angry about the church, who would just as soon see people like myself dead (there are a number of ATS posters who demonstrate this behaviour) are insane, incontrovertibly stupid, or raging against something other than someone else's belief.

I've never seen any atheist actually wish someone dead. If they did I'd be just as appalled as you. Of course, I can't really argue specifically because you're being so vague that I have no knowledge if this is a specific example or a straw man (not saying it actually is, saying that I don't know)

Now, to be quite blunt: Would you put myself in that category?

I do not, in any way, equate this with atheism in general, as I stated.

Well "I do not believe in any deity" is kind of hard to equate to that.

I know a number of atheists who are not these radical anti-theists, find them reasonable and a pleasure to discuss things with.

Again, which group am I in? I mean, I'm quite upfront and often times very abrasive in discussions, though I try to keep things as gentle as possible.

For the rest of them, meh, there's clearly something else going on, and I fail to see why the reasonable view of it cannot include many who believe, whether they know it consciously or not, and don't like the idea.

Then don't pull out your own conclusions. They may have some unresolved issues with bullying and are taking it out in an unhealthy manner on a web forum. They could also just be really bad at phrasing things. Or we could just be misinterpreting their tone. In writing, tone is incredibly difficult to convey. Master writers struggle with it, let alone the random people who are on here (myself, yourself, the mods included)

Originally posted by adjensen
You are not angry with "Edward Cullen", you are angry with the author of the books that he appears as a character in.

Well, I would argue that I get quite angry at the character for the actions as portrayed in the book that I unfortunately read quite separately from the anger I have directed at the author and the message of the book. It is quite easy to get 'angry' at a fictional character.

You are angry with people who read his books and develop an opinion that you do not agree with.

On some level. Sad for them would probably be more accurate.

Whether that anger is misplaced or not, it is anger with the real people who produce and consume that product that is Edward Cullen, because Edward Cullen is a nothing. He doesn't exist. He has no values, no qualities, no voice. You cannot be angry at nothingness (unless nothingness is what you're actually raging against :-)

Then I guess we're at a semantic argument here.

Let's just say that my problem with the actions of a specific deity in a specific text is the exact same as that I have towards the problem I have towards a fictional character.

My problems with the concept of revealed theism are philosophical rather than specific.

I did not have the time to comment before.

I am aiming at the radical atheists, the ones who not only are non-believers, but the ones who seek to bash on the entire belief system in itself, and to make atheism the only option. There are Atheists out there that do have reason, and I am sorry that i said it as if I am talking about the entirety, and not the majority/minority etc.

I was talking how the other Atheists (the radicals) think that we are all stupid and want us to get lost from their society because they deem us as nutty bigots, and then they act as such themselves.

Again, I am sorry if I made it look like I was generalizing it about All Atheists, but the last statement I said was aimed at most, which was saying that they lack hope. Probably reason for some

Originally posted by Romantic_Rebel
I don't see my Atheism or lack of faith in religion; as a lack of hope in life. That's how I saw myself as a Christian before I became an Atheist. It's just that a person who believes in a deity could never see where I'm coming from now or what Dawkins and others present in their lectures. When I was a Christian I had faith and pretty could care less what others believed unless it revolved around my beliefs in life. Now that I'm not a religious person I study more about philosophy, psychology and religion. Not to believe it! But to see how people think and see the world we live in today and view the past and future. Atheism or being no religious in my book is more logical then following a faith which many don't understand.

'

I did not know you were an Atheist

Also I would like to add that I am as well, not christian. I still need spiritual help.

Now I can see in a sense that others just may not see the point. That is why I say they do not understand. I think they should be taught that religions are not like what is seen in the media. And if they do not like it still, then that is ok.

reply to post by Shoomoo


You didn't know? Hum?

You should practice Buddhism. Buddhism in sense is great and the original Buddhist belief is not religious at all.

Originally posted by madnessinmysoul

Originally posted by adjensen
reply to post by madnessinmysoul

 

The number of "evil deeds" done explicitly, directly, intentionally, in the name of God is miniscule.

That's a hard thing to argue against until I see how you quantify. Can you please provide how you quantify it?

An act which would not exist in the absence of faith.

For example, suicide bombers. On the surface, religious nuts. Dig a little, they are religious nuts who are being used by others who are in power struggles. If you took away religion, you'd lose the motivation, but not the underlying cause, so the cause of the suicide bomber is the desire for power, not faith, and you'd still have the bombings if religion went away.

Therefore, yes, I believe that those who get very angry about the church, who would just as soon see people like myself dead (there are a number of ATS posters who demonstrate this behaviour) are insane, incontrovertibly stupid, or raging against something other than someone else's belief.

I've never seen any atheist actually wish someone dead. If they did I'd be just as appalled as you. Of course, I can't really argue specifically because you're being so vague that I have no knowledge if this is a specific example or a straw man (not saying it actually is, saying that I don't know)

Try posting as a Christian some time, lol. It seems to have tapered off of late (I presume that they're in school or doing their homework during the fall term :-) but there are plenty here who are proud of the fact that it's okay to hate, so long as you only hate the Christians.

Now, to be quite blunt: Would you put myself in that category?

No, not by a long shot.

Whether that anger is misplaced or not, it is anger with the real people who produce and consume that product that is Edward Cullen, because Edward Cullen is a nothing. He doesn't exist. He has no values, no qualities, no voice. You cannot be angry at nothingness (unless nothingness is what you're actually raging against :-)

Then I guess we're at a semantic argument here.

Perhaps, but I think that it's a germane issue. If you go back to my original post, my point is not having issues with a fictional character, but having crazy, out of control rage issues with a fictional character, and real human beings who find great comfort and joy in their beliefs. That seems either unbalanced or, again, demonstrating a component of belief.

Originally posted by Romantic_Rebel
reply to post by Shoomoo

 

You didn't know? Hum?

You should practice Buddhism. Buddhism in sense is great and the original Buddhist belief is not religious at all.

I was thinking of it, but I read that they do not believe in a soul. It leaves me concerned on whether they are right or not, since I believe in a soul. Can you tell me how that is so I can understand it, or am I able to cling on to that faith?

reply to post by Shoomoo


Ummm.? I'm not the right person to ask that. I do believe in Buddhism as a philosophy. I can link you to some sites explaining Buddhism.
Buddhism info
Tell me what you think.

reply to post by Shoomoo


Well if you had made that point to begin with I would have agreed with you . The Atheist groups in the USA who do things like going around demanding that Crosses(SP?) be removed from War memorials are just as bad as there Christian fundamentalist counterparts . Human Nature is reactionary extremist views and actions will often gear a extremist response .

Cheers xpert11 .

Originally posted by xpert11
reply to post by Shoomoo

 

Well if you had made that point to begin with I would have agreed with you . The Atheist groups in the USA who do things like going around demanding that Crosses(SP?) be removed from War memorials are just as bad as there Christian fundamentalist counterparts . Human Nature is reactionary extremist views and actions will often gear a extremist response .

Cheers xpert11 .

Lol Thanks for almost agreeing with me, and sorry for the mixup