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Is It Wrong To Lie?

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posted on Oct, 13 2010 @ 05:27 AM
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Um, if I thought it was OK to lie, then would I tell you the truth about that?

I think that if a definition tosses up bushels of obvious exceptions (the Jewish refugee family in the attic, the significant other wondering whether those jeans make her look fat, ...), then maybe the definition is unsuitable for the purpose.

A lie (also called prevarication, falsehood) is a known untruth expressed as truth.

I think at the very least, in order to raise any moral issue at all, there must be a reasonable expectation that the statement will be accepted as factually accurate.

If Sergeant Schultz thinks that I'm going to tell him all about the fugitives that I have gone to some trouble to hide from him, then his cognitive impairment isn't my moral problem. My SO, bless her soul, wouldn't be asking except that she already knows the truthful answer. She is plainly looking for something else besides fashion advice.

Then, to get morality in play, there is the further issue of whether the listener is in any sense entitled to the accurate facts. Sergeant Schultz has that problem, too.

A lie is a known untruth, expressed with the expectation of being believed, to someone entitled to a truthful report.

There may be other issues as well.

Realistically, though? There is another current thread about whether there is any absolute morality. I really think not, not on this subject, not on any other, either. The best you can hope for is heurisitic robustness, like "honesty is the best policy."

Defined with care, honesty is that indeed. But who believes that Ben didn't tell Louis a whopper or two to get those French ships and soldiers? At the very least, "No, sire, that wig makes you look very manly."



posted on Jul, 29 2011 @ 02:36 PM
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reply to post by Death_Kron
 


while telling the truth is a sign of respect and is best on a social level, with family and friends.
being honest is important when teaching children at home, whether sport, math, or anything else, if you want intelligence.
leave the cultural baggage out as much as possible.

in human society, it's required that a child know how to lie when dealing with officialdom or they will perish, hopefully learn before they start school.

we have laws against everything, teachers who want to indoctrinate, social engineer nazi, lying is an important tool of survival.
if you grow up in an area controlled by idiots, be they religious, political, ethnic, you must bend the truth in order to fit and survive.
it would seem that knowing how to lie is a necessary tool of survival in human society, unless you live in an intelligent utopia.

as a child i learned that i could be honest with intelligent people, idiots don't deserve the truth, they will use it against you.

when dealing with intelligent people, show respect, tell the truth, problems can be solved.
when dealing with crazy people, use whatever works.



posted on Jul, 29 2011 @ 03:13 PM
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One very important reason why many people lie...is to survive.

Let's say someone kidnapped me....and of course ...I want to escape...get away from this person....yes I would act and lie and tell them anything....to get out of the situation....sometimes telling a lie (to me) is ok...this is one of the examples.



posted on Jul, 29 2011 @ 03:52 PM
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reply to post by Death_Kron
 


First, I am biased. As a young man I decided that I hated lies above all else. But that is because I went to Catholic School all my life. I mean there were plenty of other reinforcing events in my decision, but I mention this one because I later became a history buff and read of the Vatican's misdeeds.

The Kabala teaches that even half-truths and important information is a lie and all lies are equally undesirable.

Eastern philosophies point out though that the lie is a necessary part of life. That we must have the false to have the truth. If we do not have the lie, the truth will be automatic and no longer a choice that one has to make. So it is a necessary.

But in life we need to have someone we trust. If lying is introduced the trust is gone. Have you ever been cheated on by someone you are very much in love with? Have you ever cheated on someone who was very much in love with you? I did the latter a lot, I went through the first one only once. Oof! I never cheated on anyone again! I knew what I had done to others, and I never wanted to do that again.

But if I hadn't lied (cheated) I would not know what I know now. I would not have learned my lesson. So therefore lying can be seen as a necessary tool. Does that let it, or us, off the hook for lying? No, because when you lie someone is hurt. This is seen on every level and in every scale.

But then there is one final modifier, and that is intention. Is the intention for the best of motives? This cannot be ignored either. Making what we just had clearly lined out suddenly murky again.

But to my way of thinking I am with Mr. Garrison on this one; "Lies are bad, m'kay!"



posted on Jul, 29 2011 @ 03:55 PM
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What is "right" and what is "wrong" is subjective and humans have a tendency to change their opinions of what's right and wrong to suit the circumstance. Lying is something that seems to generate more problems than anything, however. It doesn't work to our benefit in the long run.



posted on Jul, 29 2011 @ 04:03 PM
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reply to post by Death_Kron
 


Good question. I would say there are actually two kinds of 'lies." The "Lie" is designed to get one out of trouble, to cover up a crime or unfaithfulness, or to avoid trouble, or to hurt another person. The "Untruth," is not bad at all, if applied in the correct manner. "Honey, does this dress make me look fat?" "No, dear, you look fine." Actually, her butt is quite fat, but she is self conscious of her weight, so you tell her this to save her feelings. Is this a wrong thing to do? No, it is not. There are degrees of lies, it is not just a black and while issue.



posted on Jul, 29 2011 @ 04:12 PM
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Originally posted by autowrench
reply to post by Death_Kron
 


Good question. I would say there are actually two kinds of 'lies." The "Lie" is designed to get one out of trouble, to cover up a crime or unfaithfulness, or to avoid trouble, or to hurt another person. The "Untruth," is not bad at all, if applied in the correct manner. "Honey, does this dress make me look fat?" "No, dear, you look fine." Actually, her butt is quite fat, but she is self conscious of her weight, so you tell her this to save her feelings. Is this a wrong thing to do? No, it is not. There are degrees of lies, it is not just a black and while issue.


Definitely not, but in effect by telling the lie you described above you are essentially lying to yourself, don't get me wrong some degrees of subtlety are needed on many occasions but I tending to think about larger lies in general, although all thoughts on the subject are welcome



posted on Jul, 29 2011 @ 04:13 PM
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Originally posted by NightGypsy
What is "right" and what is "wrong" is subjective and humans have a tendency to change their opinions of what's right and wrong to suit the circumstance. Lying is something that seems to generate more problems than anything, however. It doesn't work to our benefit in the long run.


I find life a lot easier to deal with in general when people are honest, maybe not bone crushingly honest but if you don't like me then I'd rather know. I'm fairly certain if someone give me their (honest) opinion of why they dislike me, 9 times out of ten I could change that.

Sometimes, maybe not



posted on Jul, 29 2011 @ 04:15 PM
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reply to post by citizen6511
 


It's a good point I've gleaned from your post and maybe something I haven't mentioned, sometimes it's actually intelligent to lie, certain situations demand it but to be honest no matter how truthful myself or others proclaim to be; we are all liars to some degree, that's why I thought this would be an interesting subject.



posted on Jul, 29 2011 @ 04:16 PM
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reply to post by caladonea
 


Yep, my above post agree's with that.

Although, I'm not really talking about a life or death scenario, if I was the creator then I'd happily allow anyone in that situation to say what they needed.



posted on Jul, 29 2011 @ 04:21 PM
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When mom slapped your hand away from a hot stove when you were a kid, you learned that doing so was 'wrong'. But was it really? What is 'wrong' to you? It's all relative really.



posted on Jul, 29 2011 @ 04:53 PM
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reply to post by Death_Kron
 


A lie is neither wrong nor right.
It is only the intent of the lie that can be called into question.



posted on Jul, 29 2011 @ 05:50 PM
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One of the problems in discussing the morality of lying is to clarify what lying is. There are two clear properties a statement has to have to be a lie.

1. It has to be false.
2. The person making the statement has to know it's false.

If I believed that the man who I had called "Dad" all my life was my biological father, even though he in reality was not, and told someone that he was my biological father, then it probably would not considered to be a lie since, even though it is false, I believe that it is true.

The third property that distinguishes something as a lie in most people's minds is:

3. The statement is made by the speaker for their own advantage.

This is where we get into that gray area that forms the basis for whether a lie is "moral" or not. Consider the following scenario.

"A child is trapped in a burning car and dies slowly and painfully screaming for his mother as bhe burns to death. Afterwards at the hospital, the parents who were not there are beside themselves with grief and ask the fire fighter who was there what happened. If the fire fighter tells the truth, the parents will be devestated so he tells them that their child died painlessly and didn't suffer."

Yes, the fire fighter knowlingly told an untruth but very few would consider it a immoral lie since he didn't do it for gain but rather as an act of compassion. From a moral point of view, one might argue that this third property divides untruths into two categories; those that are manipulative deceptions and those that are acts of comapssion that do not produce any gain for the person saying them.

Of course there is no nice clear rule we can apply in these cases but rather have to look at the motive of the person telling the untruth. The compassionate motive of course falls apart when it is used as a justification for telling an untruth. If a normally faithful man cheated on his wife in a moment of weakness, and then lies to her about the affair, he may have two conflicting motives; on one hand he wants to avoid accepting responsibility for his actions, but yet mixed in with that is an honest desire not to hurt the woman he loves. Now we have a morally ambiguous situation without a clear and unanimous way of deciding "right" or "wrong" actions.



posted on Jul, 30 2011 @ 04:20 AM
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reply to post by metamagic
 


Good post, but in all fairness in your scenario you described I reckon I'd see through the fire fighters good intentions, sometime clarity of life is a difficult thing, like I said above maybe we all inherently lie to a point?



posted on Jul, 30 2011 @ 05:44 AM
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Yes it is. Although modern society is founded upon lies it's still wrong.



posted on Jul, 30 2011 @ 06:09 AM
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It's all a lie, that is the game.
How could anyone seek the truth if there were no lies? The whole point (if there is any) of life is to find our way home. If we never felt lost and confused it would be a very boring game.



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