Reportedly a new FOIA 2010 Video: Firefighters discuss explosions on 9/11

Originally posted by Alfie1
Witnesses reported explosions as the Titanic went down.

This is not the first time that a debunker has tried to drift a 911 thread off topic, by trying to mention the Titanic.

I should have bookmarked other threads where this tactic has been used. Maybe, if I get time, I'll search for a few threads where I have seen the Titanic used as pure distractionary value.

Stonespine...

How do you suggest a Govt. could be partially involved in the attacks??

Surely they are fully involved, or not at all.....

As for your "no evidence is needed", your confusing me...

If you have your 3 options as you have rationalised it, surely evidence would lead to which of your 3 options is in fact correct...

To me, thats why the hunt for evidence is important....and certainly not moot.

Thus far, there is enough evidence to show that the Official Fairytale is BS....simple.

reply to post by ExPostFacto
Great Clip, Star and Flag!

Since 9/11/01 I've been reading the research. The information in the clip is nothing new really, but it is new for those who are just now learning about it.

For debunkers, all the events surrounding the twin towers event need to be brought into context.

First of all, there was the PUT options scandal...American and United Airlines...someone made put options on their stocks days BEFORE the event. People reporting being warned in advance NOT to fly on 9/11 (Mayor of San Francisco Willie Brown was warned by someone near the White House not to fly then, he told the press afterward). So people knew this was coming.

Second, the dramatic overkill that blew the lid off the deception, IMO, was the strike on the Pentagon. Even
Rumsfeld slipped and called it a "missile" at first. The Pentagon is surrounded by highly protected space; only the top secret code given to the Pentagon by an aircraft could ensure it would not be destroyed by weapons
IN the pentagon itself as the aircraft entered the guarded airspace.

Third was the stand down of Norad. If this had been a legitimate outside strike against the US,
NORAD would have quickly been scrambled.

Everything had been carefully laid out in advance: a terror attack during a series of military maneuvers in Alaska to pull away many NORAD planes during the strike.

Extremely suspicious: The leasing of the asbestos-y white elephant Towers just prior to the attack along with all the double indemnity clauses in the insurance....the destruction of building 7 which contained records from the Security Exchange on Enron...the missing gold from the bank vault in Building 7...the burning melted steel weeks after the demolition.

Yes, debunkers say "Where is the evidence of the wiring and bombs in the buildings?" Well, did you notice these buildings were pulverized, almost disintegrated, into tiny particles, with little to examine? And the remaining steel on the smoking site was quickly scurried away to Asia, taking the evidence of the steel with it: the crime scene was tampered with and SO there was minimal to no evidence.

Cheney and Bush did all they could to avoid an investigation; but when it was held, no high official had to swear in to Congress, and Bush and Cheney demanded they be interviewed together, behind closed doors, with no taping, cameras, no note taking, nothing. Are these the actions of honest National leaders concerned with uncovering who actually perpetrated this outrage?

These are the main, obvious clues that hit me. As soon as the Pentagon was hit I knew it was a phony operation. The amazing thing is that no one in charge got reprimanded, demoted, or fired. In fact, some got promotions! However, as in the JFK assassination, witnesses to the events who talked began dying.

Debunkers can't believe the government could allow this to happen to it's citizens, or do it to the citizens. How about what the ATF did in WACO? Finally videos showing tanks spewing giant flames into the compound are available on the Youtube in infrared you can see the military shooting at people trying to escape the compound. Tiny babies and children were incinerated...lots of propagandizing and justifying took place (still takes place) demonizing Koresh into an Osama bin Laden. But it was a siege and destroy operation.

By now it has been published that Pearl Harbor was also allowed to happen in order to get us into World War Two...and it worked. Wasn't that in the Neocon manifesto?..."we need a New Pearl Harbor..." to pass the Patriot Act which had been written long before and was just waiting for this moment.

I think debunkers close their eyes because the implications of this are truly horrifying. Maybe it is more
than people can handle. But questions have been muffled or questioners been denigrated into being
called 'nuts' or 'crazies.' It is important to hang on to the questions and demand truth though; we don't want
this to happen again.

Originally posted by Son of Will

Originally posted by Alfie1

Originally posted by seti_starr
reply to post by Alfie1

 

Sorry, one more point. People DO get murdered all the time when it comes to blowing the whistle. (Dr. David Kelly)

I don't believe David Kelly was murdered. He was a backroom boy who was a bit incautious about what he said and found himself in the frontline of a political storm. He was not emotionally or physically equipped to deal with this and I have no doubt he killed himself.

More importantly and to the point, the pathologist who examined his body concluded that he killed himself :-

www.guardian.co.uk...

Did you even read through that whole link? Because there's some rather interesting stuff in there. First of all, the coroner makes some very odd statements. He says several times that he wished he could have found evidence of foul play very dearly, but couldn't find any. He repeats how sorry he is, how hard he tried to find foul play, sounding like a bad liar trying to convince a jury of his innocence. I've never heard a coroner talk like that, ever. He also says this:

"It was an absolute classic case of self-inflicted injury. You could illustrate a textbook with it. If it were anyone else and you were to suggest there's something foul about it, you would be referred for additional training. I would welcome an inquest – I've nothing to hide."

That is a bizarre statement all by itself.

But worst of all, the article links to another Guardian article - Hutton Inquiry closed David Kelly medical reports for 70 years. Now this has some VERY interesting stuff. Just the title alone should pique one's interest.

Just one little piece:

Five doctors who made an application to the Oxford coroner to have the inquest reopened have been told Lord Hutton made a ruling in 2003 to keep medical reports and photographs closed for 70 years. "This is a revelation," said Michael Powers QC, a former assistant coroner and expert in coronial law. "I can't think of anything that would justify these documents being treated any differently."

You can't deny that this is extremely strange behavior.

edit on 6-10-2010 by Son of Will because: (no reason given)

Also, didn't the investigators feel that David Kelly's body been moved because they did not find blood splatter where he was found outside? Dr Kelly had predicted his demise though. Britain is an extremely scary place: it has had centuries of old boy networks and MI-5 expertise to cover up these things. Just being born in a certain class gives privileges of no one being allowed to ask questions, by zipping up the evidence.

Originally posted by Alfie1

Doesn't it seem a little odd to truthers that, if there if there is a murderous conspiracy out there involving the administration, FOIA requests bring forth allegedly incriminating evidence ?

Every single newly released NIST FOIA video has been edited for some reason and I've seen probably a hundred or more so far!

reply to post by MilzGatez


Did you bother to read the report from ASCE or are one those truthers who simply dismiss anything not
fulfulling your conspiracy fantasy?

[url=http://]http://fire.nist.gov/bfrlpubs/build03/PDF/b03017.pdf[/url

Start with page 23 which describes impact damage

Also aircraft struck several objects before hitting building starting with lamposts along road, trailer mounted generator (right wing), and steam vent (left wing)

Hit at angle of 43 deg with left side sustaining more damage

Again - think this is Looney Tunes Wiley Coyote leaving nice neat hole....

Reality is very different and messy - no nice cookie cutter holes

Also columns nearest the entry hole would suffer most damage - many were destroyed. Those farther away are
bent and twisted by impact - inline with what is expected

Problem is collapse of damaged section 1/2 hr after impact destroyed that section of building

What is problem with Pentagon construction - work had just been completed on this section and offices
moving back into area.

Originally posted by Varemia

Originally posted by Americanist

Originally posted by Varemia
It really is pointless to argue then. I post the logical "observations" of the WTC 7's collapse. Literally, what happened! There were fires, there was bowing of the floors, there was no water, there was debris damage, and firefighters did evacuate the area hours in advance because they could tell the building would collapse.

You counter with "but it fell at free-fall speed," and this somehow proves that explosives were used... I wasn't even theorizing about what brought the building down, really. I was listing off what WAS REALLY THERE before collapse. Or do alllll those factors mean absolutely nothing because you think the building fell too fast to make sense to you?

edit on 6-10-2010 by Varemia because: minor spelling mistake

How about this... Find me any steel building that went down at freefall speed. Where's your list? This should be interesting...

Why do you keep diverting from the point? There was no precedent for the circumstances of 9/11. And the building didn't suddenly fall at free-fall speed. There was a good 10 seconds of the interior collapsing before the exterior came down at your free-fall speed.

You might listen to yourself before you try to get others to listen to you. I don't divert first off... Secondly, what was the entire time for collapse? Chew on that question as well as the angle and slope in which the building dropped. We can debate back and forth about leaning before the building's decent, however, it didn't lean for long.

There was no precedent for the circumstances of 9/11.

We're referring to building 7 mind you. Fires, wrecking balls, and storms damage buildings on an annual basis. If one building was wired to be pulled, common logic dictates the other two were prime targets.

Batter up... Building 7 fell at free fall speed with exterior damage and fires. Name me another.

Originally posted by tezzajw

Originally posted by Alfie1
Witnesses reported explosions as the Titanic went down.

This is not the first time that a debunker has tried to drift a 911 thread off topic, by trying to mention the Titanic.

I should have bookmarked other threads where this tactic has been used. Maybe, if I get time, I'll search for a few threads where I have seen the Titanic used as pure distractionary value.

I'm telling you... Fire Extinguishers exploding... My personal favorite.

Unbelievable that some still continue to deny to firefighter testimony. Here's more!

Notice, they haven't heard a sound...they are reporting that they have found a bomb and to clear out:
www.youtube.com...&hl=en&fs=1

and

Reporter recounts explosions (mid way through video):
www.youtube.com...&hl=en&fs=1

reply to post by Alfie1


Hmm.... I was waiting for you to show up . Where's weedwacker and the rest of your Pals ? This MUST be Debunked ASAP ! God Forbid Truthers get more Ammo to Shoot the OS Fairytale Down AGAIN......Proceed.........

Why is it that "debunkers" tell us "truthers" to knock it off and say we have no proof and are full of it. Yet they continue to read thread after thread, post after post.You would think sensible, rational debunkers would just leave us "truthers' alone and go about their lives. But yet, here they are in a conspiracy forum "debunking" the "truthers". Are they bored and have no life? Do they get some kind of joy from having an arguement? Or has Cass Sunstein sent them all here as puppets of Obama?

Originally posted by Zanti Misfit
reply to post by Alfie1

 

Hmm.... I was waiting for you to show up . Where's weedwacker and the rest of your Pals ? This MUST be Debunked ASAP ! God Forbid Truthers get more Ammo to Shoot the OS Fairytale Down AGAIN......Proceed.........

edit on 6-10-2010 by Zanti Misfit because: (no reason given)

Don't forget our main man Downer Dave!! I just Love how that guy makes stupid sense out of the OS...

I'm literally giving up at this point. I literally used pure logic that didn't even make a supposition, and I was attacked or demanded evidence from.

Good job truthers, you did your job. There's one less fellow for you to deal with on these forums.

But just as a very last bit, laughing at an idea doesn't make it any less true. I see this every single day. "This idea is laughable, ha ha ha!" All I can say to that is this, "You. Are. An. Idiot. When. You. Say. That." You offer no evidence to the contrary, you don't even use a logical "this is why this can't be a reason for things." You just laugh and then turn the other cheek going "look at the pretty lights over here!" Then, when everyone has forgotten the original logic in the OS supporter's argument, you can turn around again and say "oh look, my idea shines like gold with no opposition. The OS cowers in fear!"

It's plain despicable. You people are literally using the truther movement the way Christians and Muslims use their books to spread the faith. There's no logical reason to follow it, but you can darn well convince people to do so.

Anyway, goodbye, and good riddance. I'm tired of explaining time and time again just how much you are ignoring when you think about the collapse of the buildings. Psh, looking only at the end result and working backward. Things happened along the way that you keep on ignoring completely.

reply to post by Americanist


I got an interesting question for you . In the Video of the Building 7 Collapse , why does the Penthouse Collapse BEFORE the Rest of the Building does ? ........Hmm..........

To this day there are still Americans that are so aggressively ignorant they won't even believe the firefighters that were there on that very day. They can sit at home behind their computer screen and call those firefighters liars without hesitation. They can even watch videos that show molten steel at ground zero and simply deny that it is real, and continue to believe that office fires and jet-fuel will melt millions of pounds of steel - ignoring science, logic, and witness testimony. Very sad.

Imagine the power that the main stream media has on weak minded people. No-matter what they post, those same people I mentioned will believe it; their brains will accept it as 100% without a doubt fact.

Please, PLEASE tell me that America is just suffering from an age of ignorance. Please tell me I won't have to live with these same cavemen for the rest of my life.

I pray to god that one day the real people behind this attack will be brought to justice. Steel doesnt burn until 3000 degrees. Jet fuel only burns at 1800.

To anyone who blows this off and couldnt possibly imagine our wonderful government doing this to their own people, go to look up operation northwoods. Do some research into Vietnam. People, if they've done it in the past (or planned to) why wouldnt they do it again?

Originally posted by The_Zomar
To this day there are still Americans that are so aggressively ignorant they won't even believe the firefighters that were there on that very day. They can sit at home behind their computer screen and call those firefighters liars without hesitation. They can even watch videos that show molten steel at ground zero and simply deny that it is real, and continue to believe that office fires and jet-fuel will melt millions of pounds of steel - ignoring science, logic, and witness testimony. Very sad.

Imagine the power that the main stream media has on weak minded people. No-matter what they post, those same people I mentioned will believe it; their brains will accept it as 100% without a doubt fact.

Please, PLEASE tell me that America is just suffering from an age of ignorance. Please tell me I won't have to live with these same cavemen for the rest of my life.

Even though I said I was done I CANNOT resist the urge to stop you from spreading this crap! There were not millions of pounds of steel melted, there were pockets of superheated steal, much of it melted. We've had guys posting here who have dealt with fire-caused collapses seeing the same thing while they were digging up rubble from houses that especially had basements. We've proven that many things sound like explosions that either aren't, or aren't even related to a controlled demolition explosive.

Also, I don't know a single freakin person that believes it 100% without a doubt. That's a blatant lie. I question it constantly, and no matter what, I can't find anything that shows that it isn't true. Why is that so hard to understand?

Building 7 could have collapsed in this manner only if the main support columns AND perimeter columns were cut or compromised, it simply can't happen any other way. Imagine if buildings would collapse like all three towers did every time a fire broke out.

Originally posted by AndrewJay
I pray to god that one day the real people behind this attack will be brought to justice. Steel doesnt burn until 3000 degrees. Jet fuel only burns at 1800.

You. Are. Being. Ridiculous.

That temperature would reduce the weight capacity of the steel. Normally, that would be fine and dandy, except that the fires were more intense of different sides of the steel. See the links in my signature for reference. The varying temperatures of the various steel beams created a plasticity that made the weight bearing impossible and lead to a core collapse. Once the core was gone, the sagging trusses holding the wall in place broke, and the walls on that floor caved in. This has been witnessed thousands of times by many cameras. The sides pull into the tower as the top falls down. Then, it progressively collapses. Enough said.

www.youtube.com...

Building 7.

"The buildings about to blow up, move it back"

"The buildings about to blow up"


Cut to CNN news: "Building 7 collapsed". Well no ****!