Originally posted by mithras
[Sorry if it seemed offensive, I did put "with due respect to" there; but we surely have a right to read historical texts as much as anyone, and
without relying on the Nicean interpretation?
As for it originating from Muhammad; there are hadith that say some of the early Christians at the time recognised him as the one prophecised in the
Gospels. In addition the Gospel of Barnabas dates way back to just after Christ which I believe relates the Muslim version better. So we believe it to
be an old theory dating to Christ, and something Christ himself started.
As a Christian you must appreciate your view of Jews as misinterpreting something in their texts. Then, apply the same thinking to Muslims who believe
the same of you misinterpreting your own text. So if you are offended by Muhammad remember how Jews are offended by Christ.
You say Christians think Jews are misinterpreting their texts.
You have shown that (some?) Muslims think Chirstians are misinterpreting their texts.
I am sure you will say Christians think Mulsims do not believe in the One God for they do not believe in the Trinity.
And I am sure someone says Jews think Christians and Muslims both do not follow their God for this reason or that reason.
This is not what I was taught, and I see the Truth of what I was taught in the teachings of the Qur'an.
[2:62] Surely, those who believe, those who are Jewish, the Christians, and the converts; anyone who believes in GOD, and believes in the Last Day,
and leads a righteous life, will receive their recompense from their Lord. They have nothing to fear, nor will they grieve.
How can this be if Jews do not believe as Christians who do not believe as Muslims who do as Jews who do not believe as Muslims who do not believe as
Christians who do not believe as Jews who do not... (repeat until your breath is gone) ...?
If I am wrong please forgive my ignorance, but does not the Qur'an say Jews, Christians and Muslims are all people of the Book?
How can this be if the Torah is not the Bible which is not the Qur'an which is not the Torah, which is not the Qur'an, which is not the Bible, which
is not the Torah, which is not the... (repeat until your breath is gone) ...?
My belief is that Bible and the Torah, which is included in my bible, are God's answer to two basic questions. Where did I come from? Why am I here?
The simplest answers are: From God, to love God.
The answers lead to more questions: How did you do that? How do I do that?
Those answers lead to more questions which lead to more answers which lead to more questions which lead to... (repeat until you are out of breath)
To use another analogy,
If God were a number, what number would he be?
Question: 1? Answer: that and more.
1 + 1? That and more.
1 + 1 + 1? That and more.
1 + 1 + 1 + all numbers to infinity? That and more.
Infinity + Infinity? That and more.
Infinity + Infinity + Infinity + Infinity +... (repeat until you are out of breath) ...? That and more.
Such is the Truth of God.
The Torah is what the Jews understand of the Truth of God.
The Bible is what the Christians understand of the Truth of God.
The Qur'an is what the Muslim understand of the Truth of God.
Are any of these things a complete understanding? Of course not, for how can any man completely understand that which is God.
But if Jews do not believe how I believe how do I know the Torah is the Truth? Simply put, when you read what is written with an open mind in search
of understanding you will see the Truth if it is there.
One cannot look at the Torah and say "This is not how I understand it, so it must be like this or like that."
Of course, corruptions occur. Thus it is with anything which is translated. But, I have already talked about how to recognize corruption, through
Originally posted by Raphael_UO
Simply put the understanding of humility is the basis for all other beliefs. Similar to what you had stated, humility is the giving of yourself
completely to God and his teachings. It is through humility one learns to detect "corrupt" translations, for the work of Satan does not reflect
total commitment to God.
To give you an understanding I shall quote for you a passage from Scripture:
28 And one of the scribes came, and having heard them reasoning together, and perceiving that he had answered them well, asked him, Which is the first
commandment of all? 29 And Jesus answered him, The first of all the commandments is, Hear, O Israel; The Lord our God is one Lord: 30 And thou shalt
love the Lord thy God with all thy heart, and with all thy soul, and with all thy mind, and with all thy strength: this is the first commandment. 31
And the second is like, namely this, Thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself. There is none other commandment greater than these. 32 And the scribe
said unto him, Well, Master, thou hast said the truth: for there is one God; and there is none other but he: 33 And to love him with all the heart,
and with all the understanding, and with all the soul, and with all the strength, and to love his neighbour as himself, is more than all whole burnt
offerings and sacrifices. 34 And when Jesus saw that he answered discreetly, he said unto him, Thou art not far from the kingdom of God. And no man
after that durst ask him any question.
Completely giving of your love to God and your fellow man is the definition of humility. If I knew nothing else about this verse, that would be enough
for me to know that the words written were the words of God and not of Satan.
Understand humility and you will understand all a man can possibly understand. As I said above Completely giving yourself to God and your fellow man
is the definition of humility. It is complete Love.
Man could then ask "So, then is God love?" The answer would be: "That and more."
I look forward to you explaining them, to me at least, they don't seem out of context. I have an open mind about this, I can't understand why
you might suspect I don't; afterall I'm here willing to discuss and defend (with reason) my view. The "prophecy of Muhammad" idea not something I
plucked out of the air, but considered it as a most possible interpretation, of the passages, which could be partially or wholly wrong. Naturally one
can only look at the passages in context with supporting historical documents made at the time of Jesus, anything later is an
It is because you interpret the Christian understanding of the Truth to fit your understanding of the Truth that I asked you to try to understand with
an open mind.
One who has an open mind, does not try to understand things as they see it, they try to understand as someone else sees it.
Indeed, an open mind is not saying "you are wrong" it is asking "Are you right?"
So why didn't Jesus use the same name "God"for all three?
Why does man not use the same name "Hand" for all three?
Because the palm is not the fingers which is not the thumb which is not the palm which is not the thumb which is not the fingers which is not the palm
which is not the... (repeat until you are out of breath) ...?
If I were asked "Is Allah God?" I would answer "Yes, that and more."
Mark 10:18 Matt 19:17 Luke 18:19 all agree (strong evidence) that:-
And Jesus said unto him, Why callest thou me good? there is none good but one, that is, God.
This interferes with the Nicean concept that God is the combination of all three, here Jesus is saying that only God is good. If Jesus were part of
God (as with your analogy) then surely he wouldn't say this?
There is no conflict. The Son was made man and lived his life as a man should. How should a man live his life? Loving God, and his fellow man. Living
a life of humility. Even though The Son is God his answer was that of a man (which He was). An answer of humility. Jesus did not say "I am Good"
because judgement is for God and not man (which He was).
Jesus is God. Jesus was man. Man is not God.
Where did I come from?
Why am I here?
To Love God.
How did you do that?
How do I do that?
In essence, Jesus was the answer to man's question, "How do I do that?" God replied, "Let Me show you."
[edit on 3-7-2004 by Raphael_UO]
[edit on 3-7-2004 by Raphael_UO]