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posted on Jul, 2 2004 @ 04:08 PM
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No. That statement just shows you to be a hater.

You could call Mohammed a child rapist. But then you could say a lot worse about some of the figures in your religion - they killed children as well.

It was common for early Hebrews (the people whom you derive your scriputure from) to kill thier first-born in honour of their god, El.
What do you think Abraham was doing up on the mountain?

The problem with somebody like you Jakko, is that you see the flaws in other religions, yet you don't see those in your own.




posted on Jul, 2 2004 @ 04:16 PM
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Originally posted by Leveller
No. That statement just shows you to be a hater.


I don't hate anyone/anything.


You could call Mohammed a child rapist. But then you could say a lot worse about some of the figures in your religion


Figures?
How about prophets...
Mohammed was the most important prophet in the Islamic religion, where in Christianity Jesus was. I have yet to find any flaws in the life of Jesus, but maybe you're creative and ignorant enough to think of something. No offense.


It was common for early Hebrews (the people whom you derive your scriputure from) to kill thier first-born in honour of their god, El.
What do you think Abraham was doing up on the mountain?


That was not common at all. The story of Abraham was a test, and God prevented the death of Abrahams son in the end.
Sad how peoples ignorance can make the bible look weird or wrong.


The problem with somebody like you Jakko, is that you see the flaws in other religions, yet you don't see those in your own.


Many times I suspected to have found a flaw in my religion, yet after more understanding every time I realized this flaw was result of my ignorance, and not of an actual flaw.
I realize that I don't understand every single line in the bible, but I have seen enough of God to know that my religion is true.

My intention is not to find flaws in other religion, but I really wonder why the Islam has this many followers.

[edit on 2-7-2004 by Jakko]



posted on Jul, 2 2004 @ 04:20 PM
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Originally posted by Jakko
I find it hard to believe, that when it is historically pretty clear how the Islam was created by child-rapists that didn't even take the time to make a "holy book" with original content, still so many people follow this religion.

Or is that statement politically incorrect?


We could say the same about Christianity....how can so many people follow a religion started by murders and child molestors.

The old testament is riddled with such acts of murder.

"In the books said to have been written by Moses and Joshua, we read that the Israelites invaded nations of people who had done nothing wrong against them. We read that they slaughtered the people; that they killed the elderly and children; that they completely destroyed men, women and children; and that they did not leave a soul alive. These are expressions that are fiercely repeated over and over in those books."

....and child molesting..

In Numbers 31:13 it says "And Moses, and
Eleazar the priest, and all the princes of the congregation, went
forth to meet them without the camp; and Moses was wroth with the
officers of the host, with the captains over thousands, and captains
over hundreds, which came from the battle; and Moses said unto them,
Have ye saved all the women alive? behold, these caused the children
of Israel, through the council of Balaam, to commit trespass against
the Lord in the matter of Peor, and there was a plague among the
congregation of the Lord. Now, therefore, kill every male among the
little ones, and kill every woman that hath known a man by lying with
him; but all the women-children, that have not known a man by lying
with him, keep alive for yourselves."

...and don't forget the incest...(Lot's daughters got him drunk and seduced him)



posted on Jul, 2 2004 @ 04:30 PM
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Yes badkitty, I know about these verses, and frankly I don't fully understand them.
But the fact remains, that the most important figure in Christianity did not do all of those things, where Mohammed did do all of these things.



posted on Jul, 2 2004 @ 05:18 PM
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I love how the apologetics for Islam(God how it needs them more than ever in this day and age) say that Islam is tolerant when its clerics condemn unbelievers every day and the Quran in no less than 200 times reminds unbelievers that their future is filled with doom and fire.


I call that intolerance and I don't attack Christianity because nobody really follows that religon anymore(you know women are allowed to talk in Church these day and even (gasp) be allowed to preach even though the Bible forbids it.

The Quran is sending the 1billion buddhist and hindus to a pit filled with fire where they will have their intestines opened and eaten. I absolutely cannot believe that the love of the REAL GOD is in this inconsistent, intolerant book of jibberish. Muhammad is of the devil and the true way to test the metal of his word is did he live by the rules he set. No he did not. First and fore most is his coniviction it is ok for him to have 3 times the number of wifes than any other man. He does not play by his own rules and he made more than a few mistakes regarding math, (he did not know how to add fractions) and wrote down or recited down in the perfect book of God certain verses in the third person. Such obvious mistakes should make anyone with any amount of reason realize that both of these "holy book" are NOT WRITTEN BY GOD!!!!!!!!!!! USE YOUR BRAIN AND QUIT BELEIVING THIS LIE FROM SATAN!!!!!!!!



posted on Jul, 2 2004 @ 06:20 PM
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Originally posted by Leveller
I don't believe that the Trinity is polytheistic - it is all an aspect of the One. I don't believe that by pointing to a Trinity within Islam, that I am implying it to be polytheistic either.

Yea, this is why I said "those versions of Christianity that might." I don't know if there are any that specifically do. From a Muslim's perspective: I'd guess that the important aspect to Islam (Allah) is whether the individual Christian sees God as mostly one or three; I would have thought everyone must have some kind of visualisation of the "parts."



I find it ironic that I am arguing for pagan origins with a poster calling himself Mithras and that he is refuting the idea.


Just something I picked as I like Roman names and myths. Certainly I would believe the theory that in Nicea they mixed paganism with Jesus' Islam to form Christianity - as a partial pagan origin in that particular case.



You must agree that this is hardly the action of a literate society. A society that is looking to become literate - yes. But that is not the argument here.

Yea, there's no arguing that many people were illiterate, my only argument was with a figure, even a rough one. It makes sense to allow the prisoner a choice, punishment or community work. The emphasis on literacy probably meant that he knew the message would have to be preserved, or just for the general well-being of society.



posted on Jul, 2 2004 @ 09:49 PM
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Originally posted by wooten123
I love how the apologetics for Islam(God how it needs them more than ever in this day and age) say that Islam is tolerant when its clerics condemn unbelievers every day and the Quran in no less than 200 times reminds unbelievers that their future is filled with doom and fire.


I call that intolerance and I don't attack Christianity because nobody really follows that religon anymore(you know women are allowed to talk in Church these day and even (gasp) be allowed to preach even though the Bible forbids it.

The Quran is sending the 1billion buddhist and hindus to a pit filled with fire where they will have their intestines opened and eaten. I absolutely cannot believe that the love of the REAL GOD is in this inconsistent, intolerant book of jibberish. Muhammad is of the devil and the true way to test the metal of his word is did he live by the rules he set. No he did not. First and fore most is his coniviction it is ok for him to have 3 times the number of wifes than any other man. He does not play by his own rules and he made more than a few mistakes regarding math, (he did not know how to add fractions) and wrote down or recited down in the perfect book of God certain verses in the third person. Such obvious mistakes should make anyone with any amount of reason realize that both of these "holy book" are NOT WRITTEN BY GOD!!!!!!!!!!! USE YOUR BRAIN AND QUIT BELEIVING THIS LIE FROM SATAN!!!!!!!!



Those who believe [in the Quran], and those who follow the Jewish [scriptures], and the Christians and the Sabians,any who believe in God and the Last Day, and work righteousness, shall have their reward with their Lord; on them shall be no fear, nor shall they grieve. (Al-Baqarah 2:62 Holy Qur'an )Text

Unlike other religions of the world that guarantee salvation for their adherents......Islam does not say who will ultimately go to heaven or hell. We do have the comforting promise that G-d is kinder than the most loving mother. While I am not sure what that translates to in a metaphysical sense....I can still derive comfort from it.

Some Christians like to say that those who do not accept the Divinity of Jesus will be confined to Hell..This is roughly 75% of the world population. Judaism classifies the Jews as being the "chosen people" and Hindus have a caste system that classifies people of ranks. This is not the case with Islam. If you knew that you are destined for hell, why bother trying to redeem yourself? You might as well stay depressed. If you knew that you were destined for Paradise? Why bother purifying yourself....why put in the extra mile ....why even bother trying?....Both scenarios are gloomy. In the end, you get what you deserve...your works, your faith, and your intentions work for you....or against you....

The righteous Christians that the Qur'an describes are called " Nasara" in arabic. It is the equivalent of "Essene Nazarene". Thus, they are the true Christians and early disciples of Jesus Christ (pbuh). Unfortunately , much of the Nazarene way is lost....and you would be lucky if you can see a practicing Essene Nazarene. Thus, Islam is the logical conclusion to the Nazarene way, the Lost way of Jesus Christ, the Messiah.


---River

[edit on 2-7-2004 by River Euphrates]

[edit on 2-7-2004 by River Euphrates]



posted on Jul, 2 2004 @ 09:57 PM
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I would find it much more palatable to hear of your religion (which I truly am interested in learning of on the DOCTRINAL level) WITHOUT the alleged ties, opinions and outsider beliefs of the Christian religion.

This absolutely is not meant as confrontational, but as a statement that as you most definitely would not like my outsider belief-based opinion of Mohammed...I find it rather tasteless to have to read your outsider belief-based opinion of Jesus.

Do you think we could hear more of your foundational beliefs minus the opines of Christianity? It might make for a more open discussion, with less debate on which came first if each of us could speak of our foundational beliefs and not of each other's.



posted on Jul, 3 2004 @ 12:53 AM
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Originally posted by mithras
There is no similarity of concepts because in the Trinity the three are believed to be one. Since you brought that pair of three names up, and with due respect to Christians, my belief is that the idea of the Holy Ghost in Christianity is because of (perhaps deliberate) misinterpretation of Jesus' prophecy of Muhammad recorded in John's (distorted) Gospel. Hopefully these aren't out of context as they stand so try reading these fully, with an open mind (to accomodate distortion):-


I am at a loss for words.

I do not know from where the idea that there is a prophecy of Muhammad recorded in John's Gospel originated. From my admittedly limitted understanding, I would guess it did not originate with Muhammad. If I am wrong, I will definately need to rethink my opinions.

I know you know the importance of an open mind. I have approached Islam with an open mind. I would ask you do the same for Christianity.

The verses you quoted are out of context, and perhaps I will explain at a later time.


I have read: "They do blaspheme who say: Allah is one of three in a Trinity, for there is no god except One God." (Qur'an 5:73)

I find truth in these words.

The concept of the Trinity is not one of easy understanding. Christians who are unable to understand either continue on faith or reject the teaching. In my search for understanding, I too have stumbled over this very thing. My mind struggled to discover if there were any Truth in this teaching. I have found that Truth for which I was looking, though I do not completely understand it. But what man can completely understand God?

I will share an analogy I have been taught, it is not perfect, but I ask you to keep an open mind.


Finding the Truth of the Trinity is in our hands.

If God were My hand, The Father would be my palm, The Son would be my Thumb, and The Holy Ghost would be my fingers, and I would teach the concept of The Trinity like this:

My hand has one set of fingers, one thumb, and one palm. If I were to count these things that are my hand, I have one set of fingers, one thumb and one palm. One plus one plus one is three. But I have only one hand.

Looking at my hand, I see my thumb comes from my palm, and I see my fingers come from my palm. They are all made of the same stuff, flesh and bone.

If I burn my thumb, can I say I have a burn on my palm? No, because they are different. A palm is not a thumb. A thumb is not the fingers. The fingers is not the palm.

If I burn my palm, can I say I have a burn on my hand? Yes, because they are the same. The palm is the hand. The fingers are the hand. The thumb is the hand.

If I put my hand in boiling water, which gets burned the fingers, the palm, or the thumb? All, because the fingers, the palm, and the thumb are the hand.


The Hand Creed of Nicene

I believe I have one hand, the palm, my palm makes things.

I believe I have one hand, the thumb, the only thumb of my hand, it comes from my palm, palm to thumb, tissue is tissue, it is my hand, my hand did not make them but there they are, my thumb and my palm are my hand. Without my thumb not much could be made. It's pretty important.

I believe I have fingers, its my hand too, great things are made with my fingers, my fingers come from my palm too, with my palm and thumb my fingers do everything my hand does. I use my fingers to make words on my computer.

I believe in other things too.



And there you have it. If you choose, give it some thought with an open mind.



[edit on 3-7-2004 by Raphael_UO]

[edit on 3-7-2004 by Raphael_UO]



posted on Jul, 3 2004 @ 01:58 AM
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here i will offer again my wisdom.

Jesus Christ healed people, he cured the blind. He knew what was going to happen before it happened, such as what people were thinking. He told Peter he would betray him 3 times before the rooster crows, and Peter did. He said someone would betray him, and someone did. He died for the sins of Humanity. He had answers for things no one ever even knew existed.

Was he the Messiah?

Deny him all you want, but what other man in history can lay claim to this?

These two questions i leave for you to answer.



posted on Jul, 3 2004 @ 05:43 AM
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Originally posted by River Euphrates
Thus, Islam is the logical conclusion to the Nazarene way, the Lost way of Jesus Christ, the Messiah.


I disagree with a couple of points.
There are many out there who practice gnostic Christianity. As people realise that the Catholic Church has been averse to telling the truth, more and more people are turning to this branch of the religion.

As for Islam picking up where Christianity left off, I entirely disagree if you are including mainstream Islam in the equation. Mainstream Islam is no different from Christianity in that it sets out a dogmatic path to God.

If you'd have said Falsafah Islam, I believe you'd have a point. Not necessarily that it was a continuation, but that it was in fact very similar to gnostic Christianity. Both seem to have their roots in Hellenistic philosophy.



posted on Jul, 3 2004 @ 07:54 AM
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Originally posted by Raphael_UO

Originally posted by mithras
There is no similarity of concepts because in the Trinity the three are believed to be one. Since you brought that pair of three names up, and with due respect to Christians, my belief is that the idea of the Holy Ghost in Christianity is because of (perhaps deliberate) misinterpretation of Jesus' prophecy of Muhammad recorded in John's (distorted) Gospel. Hopefully these aren't out of context as they stand so try reading these fully, with an open mind (to accomodate distortion):-


I am at a loss for words.

I do not know from where the idea that there is a prophecy of Muhammad recorded in John's Gospel originated. From my admittedly limitted understanding, I would guess it did not originate with Muhammad. If I am wrong, I will definately need to rethink my opinions.

Sorry if it seemed offensive, I did put "with due respect to" there; but we surely have a right to read historical texts as much as anyone, and without relying on the Nicean interpretation?

As for it originating from Muhammad; there are hadith that say some of the early Christians at the time recognised him as the one prophecised in the Gospels. In addition the Gospel of Barnabas dates way back to just after Christ which I believe relates the Muslim version better. So we believe it to be an old theory dating to Christ, and something Christ himself started.

As a Christian you must appreciate your view of Jews as misinterpreting something in their texts. Then, apply the same thinking to Muslims who believe the same of you misinterpreting your own text. So if you are offended by Muhammad remember how Jews are offended by Christ.



I know you know the importance of an open mind. I have approached Islam with an open mind. I would ask you do the same for Christianity.

The verses you quoted are out of context, and perhaps I will explain at a later time.

I look forward to you explaining them, to me at least, they don't seem out of context. I have an open mind about this, I can't understand why you might suspect I don't; afterall I'm here willing to discuss and defend (with reason) my view. The "prophecy of Muhammad" idea not something I plucked out of the air, but considered it as a most possible interpretation, of the passages, which could be partially or wholly wrong. Naturally one can only look at the passages in context with supporting historical documents made at the time of Jesus, anything later is an interpretation.



I have read: "They do blaspheme who say: Allah is one of three in a Trinity, for there is no god except One God." (Qur'an 5:73)

I find truth in these words.

The concept of the Trinity is not one of easy understanding. Christians who are unable to understand either continue on faith or reject the teaching. In my search for understanding, I too have stumbled over this very thing. My mind struggled to discover if there were any Truth in this teaching. I have found that Truth for which I was looking, though I do not completely understand it. But what man can completely understand God?

Man always likes to visualise the unseen, it is out of fear. Muslims believe one cannot imagine what God is, only that he is one entity that can do anything and knows everything - this answers all we need to know concerning his "physical" nature, in this life. In the Gospels (and we're talking of a good translation of at least the Vulgate), does it outright mention the Holy Trinity as three being conceptually one, in the same verse?



I will share an analogy I have been taught, it is not perfect, but I ask you to keep an open mind.

Finding the Truth of the Trinity is in our hands.

If God were My hand, The Father would be my palm, The Son would be my Thumb, and The Holy Ghost would be my fingers, and I would teach the concept of The Trinity like this:

My hand has one set of fingers, one thumb, and one palm. If I were to count these things that are my hand, I have one set of fingers, one thumb and one palm. One plus one plus one is three. But I have only one hand.

Looking at my hand, I see my thumb comes from my palm, and I see my fingers come from my palm. They are all made of the same stuff, flesh and bone.

If I burn my thumb, can I say I have a burn on my palm? No, because they are different. A palm is not a thumb. A thumb is not the fingers. The fingers is not the palm.

If I burn my palm, can I say I have a burn on my hand? Yes, because they are the same. The palm is the hand. The fingers are the hand. The thumb is the hand.

If I put my hand in boiling water, which gets burned the fingers, the palm, or the thumb? All, because the fingers, the palm, and the thumb are the hand.


The Hand Creed of Nicene

This is how I visualised the Trinity - I know you said it's not perfect, but is it logical and compatible with the Gospel evidence:

So there is the Father, Son and Holy Ghost as part of that which you called God. To me, this analogy has related them as physically different parts connected to each other. This analogy says each part is essentially flesh and bone, i.e. the same; so really the analogy says the three are the same thing, yet they're named differently. So why didn't Jesus use the same name "God"for all three?

Mark 10:18 Matt 19:17 Luke 18:19 all agree (strong evidence) that:-

And Jesus said unto him, Why callest thou me good? there is none good but one, that is, God.

This interferes with the Nicean concept that God is the combination of all three, here Jesus is saying that only God is good. If Jesus were part of God (as with your analogy) then surely he wouldn't say this?

Of course some evidence looks to support one thing or the other, and that's the problem with translated text - error and confusion creep in. You have to take the whole text and weigh the evidence as supporting one theory.

You see you can't simply take a man's interpretation of evidence. He could do it for his own gain. Try to think what they might have wanted at Nicea (motive is a part of this investigation), they had people who believed in one God (as Muslims believe Jesus taught), then they had pagan people who believed in the Sun as a God and so on. This pagan Catholic church was already there. How to get everyone under one command? Mix religions. Where do you really think the birthday of Christ came from?

This mixing or modifying of religion is happening today, just to be acceptable by more men. Some Christian denominations are trying to allow homosexuality (think what could be next), where before it wasn't. Do we love our free-will or God more? If God made a law, he wants us to keep it, not freely change it!



posted on Jul, 3 2004 @ 08:19 AM
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Valhall,


Originally posted by Valhall
I would find it much more palatable to hear of your religion (which I truly am interested in learning of on the DOCTRINAL level) WITHOUT the alleged ties, opinions and outsider beliefs of the Christian religion.

This absolutely is not meant as confrontational, but as a statement that as you most definitely would not like my outsider belief-based opinion of Mohammed...I find it rather tasteless to have to read your outsider belief-based opinion of Jesus.

Do you think we could hear more of your foundational beliefs minus the opines of Christianity? It might make for a more open discussion, with less debate on which came first if each of us could speak of our foundational beliefs and not of each other's.


May I ask who are you replying to. If it wasn't me, you may choose to ignore the rest of this and I'm sorry for bringing it up.

Aren't you giving your opinion of Jesus from a Christian viewpoint. I hope you appreciate we Muslims believe in the existence of Jesus just as much as you do, only differently. You find our belief distasteful, then haven't we the right to find yours' as distasteful?

We believe in Jesus as a sinless man, a great Prophet and creation of God, but only a man. It is a fundamental belief written in the Qur'an.

Go back to the start of the thread and you will find that a question, directed at Muslims, was asked about our belief of Jesus. If you find other beliefs distasteful you didn't have to read the thread?

PS: If you wish to have an opinion on Muhammad, that is acceptable with me. Obviously if it is unfounded, I may ignore it.

[edit on 3-7-2004 by mithras]



posted on Jul, 3 2004 @ 08:32 AM
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Right, and a lot of what your religion (as stated by you and River) believes about the Christ appears unfounded to me as well.

You and River both seem to be very well founded in your religion and articulate the teachings well. What I was asking was if it would be possible to direct that gift toward expounding the doctrine of your religion, versus wasting it on discussing a religion that you have admittedly rejected for yourself.

I am not saying that you have no right to believe as your religion has taught you concerning Jesus, but what I am saying is that he hasn't the doctrinal importance in your religion that would warrant focusing a discussion that could help others learn more about the tenents of the Islamic religion.

I hope you are understanding my point. Because I'm actually trying to get to where I learn more about your religion.



posted on Jul, 3 2004 @ 09:06 AM
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Originally posted by mithras
The concept of the Trinity is not one of easy understanding.

If Jesus were part of God (as with your analogy) then surely he wouldn't say this?



Look to gnostic Islam for the answer to this one as it's beliefs are quite similar.
The Trinty is God and it isn't God.

It like the Alpha and Omega - nothing and everything at the same time.

And your statement that Muslims believe that one cannot imagine what God is, is wrong. Mainstream Islam may believe this but there were sects such as the Sufis who believed that by applying a logic philosophy, they could understand God better.

www.arches.uga.edu...



posted on Jul, 3 2004 @ 09:25 AM
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What is Islam ?
A brief summary


Islam is a belief in one God, submission to one God.
According to Islam there is one single God who created the universe, earth, life, angels, jinns and humans. First humans were Adam and Eve. They lived in paradise-like state, until they were both equaly tempted by Satan to eat from the Tree of Knowledge. After that their bodies became visible and God sent them down to earth to live like that for a certain period of time, after which they will return to God. Satan and his followers amongst the race of Jinns were also cast out of God's kingdom. Thats how it starts.
Satan and evil jinns are constantly tempting people on Earth, just like they did with Adam and Eve. God sent his messengers and prophets continuosly through history to warn people of this temptation and to give them guidance to righteous life. Qur'an talks of many prophets, amongst otehrs are Abraham, Moses, David, Jesus etc,etc, and many others not named. Every nation and civilisation had its own prophets who brought the word of God to people. BUt over and over again, men have corrupted that word, added things and rules of their own.
The basics can be summed up in the Ten Comandments.

Humans are born without sin, children are pure. We aquire a place in Heaven by doing good and avoiding evil. Good things: give money to poor, respect elders, specially parents, do not lie, steal, arogance is bad, humility is good, knowledge is the key, educate yourself, etc,etc, basicaly a righteous life.
Of course, humans are not perfect, they sin from time to time. A sin can be forgiven by God if a person truly repents and never does that again.
Unfogivable sin: murder of an innocent person regardless of their faith.

There are no different religions in Islam, there is only one religion, one belief in one God, with a continuous line of prophets and messengers.

Jesus is a very special and very important prophet. He was created by God, was capable of doing miracles, and was raised to God. He will return to earth before Judgement Day to fight the final battle.

Muhammad was just a simple man chosen by God to deliver the Final Testament. Islam is not about following the footsteps and life of Muhammad, it never was. It is about a belief in One God and worshiping that one God only.

Qur'an is a guidance for a righteous life and, as I said, contains the belief in all prophets from the very begining. It is a very complex book with 114 chapters, to understand Islam one must read the whole book, not just parts of it.

So, I think that covers the basic.

Any questions?



posted on Jul, 3 2004 @ 09:27 AM
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Originally posted by Valhall
Right, and a lot of what your religion (as stated by you and River) believes about the Christ appears unfounded to me as well.

I cannot speak for River, but myself. It appears unfounded to you, but will remain that way without discussion or exploration; you admit your own ignorance of Islam?

What I mainly meant by "unfounded" was the rudeness (as in swear words) that certain posters have displayed when they couldn't return a reasoned reply. I have just tried to ignore those, but if you merely don't believe in his Prophethood, I'm happy to discuss that.



You and River both seem to be very well founded in your religion and articulate the teachings well. What I was asking was if it would be possible to direct that gift toward expounding the doctrine of your religion, versus wasting it on discussing a religion that you have admittedly rejected for yourself.

How can we discuss something without a common frame of reference? You believe in the Bible and not the Qur'an (which you also don't understand). So the only common ground is the Bible.



I am not saying that you have no right to believe as your religion has taught you concerning Jesus, but what I am saying is that he hasn't the doctrinal importance in your religion that would warrant focusing a discussion that could help others learn more about the tenents of the Islamic religion.

He has importance, we believe in the Islamic version of his return. He is still a very important part of our belief. As for the importance of him in relation to the thread here, how can you accuse me of bringing Jesus into the discussion when the question posed by Ryanp5555 (a Christian) does exactly that:-

How can you say Jesus Christ was not the savior when he is a prophet in the Koran... yet he said himself that he was the son of god.

We dispute what he, according to you, "said." The only way to do that is talking about the Bible and what the text really means (and in the light of its probable reliability, given the evidence that it is a translated text)



I hope you are understanding my point. Because I'm actually trying to get to where I learn more about your religion.

If you want to understand, then we can start at your religion or mine. If you want to start at mine, I suggest first learning as much as you can from islamonline.net or the Qur'an. Then you can try to find contradictions and confusions in Islam if you like, just as finding such in the Bible was the only way we have to discuss with those who only know the Bible.



posted on Jul, 3 2004 @ 09:33 AM
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Thank you paperclip! I do have questions...many many many...lol. Here is the first one that comes to mind:

According to the beliefs I have been reading in the various threads - and reiterated just now in your post - a prophet is sent occasionally through-out history when the truth has been adulterated to a point that people are led astray by it.

Apparently this kick-over point after Christ happened in a very short 600 years - hence the word according to Muhammed. My question:

In the past 1400 years has there been an identified prophet since Muhammed? If not, why? Since there is admittedly different "versions" of the Qu'ran - which according to the logic presented in these threads - instantly makes the Qu'ran corrupt - as does the different versions of the Bible making it corrupt - aren't we to a point that a prophet should have come by now to straighten stuff out again? Also, I think that with the barbarism that is occurring in the name of Islam - which is a major corruption according to the tenets outlined by you and others - would you think we are approaching the next prophet?

I appreciate you discussing this with me.



posted on Jul, 3 2004 @ 09:36 AM
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Originally posted by mithras
Then you can try to find contradictions and confusions in Islam if you like, just as finding such in the Bible was the only way we have to discuss with those who only know the Bible.


mithras, please don't answer me with this preconceived notion - it does not lead us to discussion, or to me learning. I will visit the site you gave me (as I have visited others) - but I don't like to go to sites I just "find" because then I don't know if I'm reading a "sanctioned" site or not - hope that makes sense.

I have no desire to find contradictions or confusions.

Also, as I stated to you in my u2u - I concur that this thread asked you to speak about the Islamic belief concerning Christ - so we are in much agreement on that statement.



posted on Jul, 3 2004 @ 09:43 AM
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Am I considered kafir because I reject the Islamic religion for myself? Or am I excluded from being considered kafir because I believe in the one true God via my Christian beliefs?

This point is confusing to me.





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