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Originally posted by Raphael_UO
Would it be accurate if I were to rephrase this as: "While the origins of the Qur'an are derived from the Bible, had the Bible not existed the Qur'an would still exist in its current form" ?
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"While the origins of the Qur'an are derived from the Bible, had the Bible not existed the Qur'an would still exist in its current form" ?
Originally posted by River Euphrates
Originally posted by Raphael_UO
Originally posted by River Euphrates
Please read my posts before prematurely judging what I say. The Qur'an is based on the Bible ...but it is not dependent on the Bible.
Would it be accurate if I were to rephrase this as: "While the origins of the Qur'an are derived from the Bible, had the Bible not existed the Qur'an would still exist in its current form" ?
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Yes, thats exactly what I meant.
Originally posted by Mitras
To understand Islam you need to understand its view of the difference between the Bible and Qur'an.
Originally posted by Jakko
Of course not.
Originally posted by Raphael_UO
Why would I need to understand the differences between the Bible and the Qur'an in order to understand Islam?
Should not the books used to teach Islam be capable of relaying complete understanding without having to rely on material Muslims believe is corrupted?
But I will ask you a question. Early in this thread it was said that Muhammed wasn't sure of his own salvation. I commented that I found humility reflected in his uncertainty. What are the teachings of Islam concerning humility?
Originally posted by mithras
Hello again Raphael_UO,
Nice that you have been considering Islam without prejudice. One thing if I may suggest is that you should only get your information about Islam from known Islamic sources. You might consider that it is a tactic for some, who wish to harm Islam, to put up websites that only claim to be Islamic but really misinform you.
You don't really need to understand the differences between the Bible and Qur'an to understand Islam. But maybe you think the full understanding Islam is inclusive of how it views other religions, or not.
The Bible is irrelevant to Islam, in that it won't make a difference to the concept of God (and practice of the religion) if the Bible didn't exist. However it has become relevant to this thread and indeed your questions, so I wanted to make it clear how Muslims (Islam) view the Holy Books.
Of course, the Qur'an is capable of relaying understanding, but to support our understanding of it the Sunnah (the oral teachings of the Prophet) may be used as a guide to avoid dispute of interpretation. The Sunnah is only described in the Ahadith (still in original language) which as I already said has varying degrees of reliability. Only the most reliable Hadith are used to clarify understanding, if needed.
I can go on, but just to keep it short: humbleness towards others is a quality of a good Muslim, whereas arrogance is something Allah has stated he dislikes, many times in the Qur'an. Example in Surah 31:18-9 (Yusuf-Ali trans.):
"And swell not thy cheek (for pride) at men, nor walk in insolence through the earth; for Allah loveth not any arrogant boaster. And be moderate in thy pace, and lower thy voice; for the harshest of sounds without doubt is the braying of the donkey."
Originally posted by Raphael_UO
How would you know what River Euphrates meant by her/his words? Are they not her/his words? I was not asking if her/his words were correct, mearly if the intent of her/his words were clearly understood by me.
Since you obviously have taken the "pro-Bible" side in this debate, I will assume you are Christian. For you I pass on wisdom that was passed on to me.
Luke 6:37-49
Originally posted by Jakko
I know, and this means the "of course not" was not directed at you, but at the statement in general.
What does that have to do with me or what I say?
This verse doesn't say that we can't have an opinion, neither does it say we should stop being aware of what satan and demons do in this world.
I'm personally strongly against ripping parts of the bible out of their context for use to your own advantage in these word-battles.
The bible was not given to us so we can smash eachothers heads in with it.
Originally posted by Raphael_UO
Since you are willing to answer my questions, I will consider you as a known Islamic source. If there comes a point that I ask something which you cannot answer, I would ask for you to direct me to a source that can.
The Bible teaches the importance of humility as well. It is perhaps the most important lesson one can learn as a Christian. That humility is also something important to a Muslim gives me a basis for understanding.
Before I ask questions about other things, I need to clarify what you have already told me.
You said the Bible is corrupted. You said the Qur'an was not corrupted.
For the sake of understanding, I will assume you are 100% correct.
Now, my question: Would your statements be considered arrogance?
Originally posted by mithras
Likewise, if I say the Qur'an is the word of God, and that no man has ever changed the wording, you cannot say whether I'm wrong or right until you disprove that statement. There is comparatively so little evidence to suggest that even one word has changed from the original as Muhammad recited it. The graphical representation of the Arabic can look different in some text due to dialect, not meaning.
Originally posted by Leveller
It is the word of man. As for there being no evidence that it was changed? The very fact that it came from a society which was mostly illiterate means that the liklihood of the Koran not being misinterpreted somewhere along the lines is infintisimal. Ever played a game of Chinese Whispers?
The politics behinds the Koran is blatant to see. It was a necessary mish-mash of muruwah and Jewish folklore to stop Arabian society from destroying itself.
As for it's being misinterpreted? Why do Muslim women wear veils? It was only Mohammed's wives who were required to wear them.
Originally posted by mithras
Just because I am willing to answer questions does not make me a proper Islamic source, I only answer as best as I know. Here's a few websites that I believe are valid:-
www.islamonline.net... helpful scholars in "Ask About Islam"
www.sureguidance.org... has a full Qur'an with commentary
www.usc.edu... has three side by side translations and many hadith translations.
I'm well aware the Bible teaches humility toward other each other. However, for me, the modern interpretation of the Bible where all Christians are spiritually cleansed (thus fundamentally better than others) or will enter Heaven for sure because only they are loved by God, loses that original humility; maybe you can explain if I'm mistaken.
If you say the Bible has the uncorrupt word of the Apostles. I would ask for the Bible Gospels in their original language since a translation is made by other men. There is plenty of evidence to suggest english wasn't even around at that time, most people would agree. So this is enough for me to disprove the claim. If that's not enough for some, there's plenty of other points we can mention that will convince most of us, and I've listed some in this thread.
Originally posted by Raphael_UO
It is interesting that you would say "modern interpretation".
...each Christian should live his life as Jesus did-- according to the word of God.
To give you an understanding I shall quote for you a passage from Scripture:
In regards to humility, I say to you that it matters not who is right and who is wrong. However, saying one is right and the other is wrong could not be humble, for would it not be the same as saying one is superior to the other? Is not expressing superiority arrogance?
If these words offend you in any way
Originally posted by mithras
good reason. Honestly, if a Christian can reason with me all the way against Islam or atheism, I would accept Christianity on the spot; but I'm not going to risk my salvation on the acceptance of someone just saying this is true, no matter how easy it makes life.
Originally posted by KSoze
Mithras, why did you say Islam OR atheism. Aren't you under submission to allah? Are you saying you'd been an atheist if you weren't under islam?
Originally posted by KSoze
To any muslim, I only have one question....When was the bible corrupted?