Originally posted by Leveller
I don't think it's being "funny".
I posted the verses as they stand. the fact that you have twisted them to suit your own cause does not make the literal translation funny.
As for the first translation - it clearly states that Allah appears in a physical form. Again, twist it all you like but there is no hiding from the
I urge you to read the following post. It is best to inform yourself about the Islamic concept of G-d, before you prematurely assert
"characteristics of Allah"...for which you ..... clearly do not have expertise --------River
What is Allah?
When i say "Hu" in reference to God Almighty, i am speaking in the masculine pronoun because in Semitic languages there is no such thing as a gender
neutral pronoun as there is in English. In English we have the pronoun "IT." However, in Semitic languages the “default” gender neutral pronoun is
`Ali, the cousin of Muhammad, who was the son of Muhammad's foster parents and who Muhammad raised basically from infancy - this same `Ali about whom
all Muslims accept that Muhammad said "You are my brother in this world and the next" - this `Ali and his descendents told those who asked them,
that if one wished to, they could think of Allah as a "Thing" since that would prevent them of anthropomorphizing Allah and attributing qualities of
the creation to the Creator.
Muhammad ibn Ya‘qub has narrated from `Ali ibn Ibrahim, from Muhammad ibn `Isa from ‘Abd al-Rahman ibn Abu Najran who said the following.
"I asked Imam Abu ‘Abd'ullah about the Oneness of Allah saying, ‘Can I think of Him (the creator) as a thing?’"
The Imam replied, "Yes, but not as something well understood and clearly defined with in limits. What may become a subject of your thoughts is
different from Him. Nothing resembles Him and the thoughts and imaginations can not reach Him. He is different from what can become the subject of
thoughts and is different from whatever that can be perceived in ones thoughts. You can think of Him as some thing but not well understood and clearly
defined (under certain limits)."
Al-Kulayni, Usul al-Kafi H 215, Ch. 2, h 1
Muhammad ibn ‘Abd'ullah has narrated from Muhammad ibn Isma‘il from al-Husayn ibn al-Hassan from Bakr ibn Salih from al-Husayn ibn Sa‘id who said
that I asked Imam Abu Ja‘far, the second the following:
"Is it permissible to say that Allah is a thing?"
The Imam replied, "Yes, because it removes two kinds of limitations, the limitation of being forgotten altogether and that of considering Him like
Al-Kulayni, Usul al-Kafi H 216, Ch. 2, h 2
It is narrated from Imam Abu Ja‘far who said when he was asked, "Is it permissible to say Allah is a thing?" "Yes, it is permissible because it
excludes Him from being ignored altogether and from being analogized or considered similar to the creatures."
Al-Kulayni, Usul al-Kafi H 221, Ch. 2, h 7
So let us be clear that when any educated Muslim speaks of Allah as "He" - or "Hu" in both Hebrew (הוא
- then we do not mean that God Most High, who is exalted far above Hu's Creation - is a man. So this is one of many reasons why,
throughout many teachings, i refer to God with the Hebrew and `Arabic pronoun "Hu" to point back to the original word used. i find this preferable
to mistranslating it as a masculine gendered pronoun into a language with a gender neutral pronoun. This does not mean that there was no other reason
why the masculine pronoun would have been used for God. However, that is not within the context of this topic. Suffice it to say that when a gender
neutral option exists in a language, then it becomes questionable at best to attribute gender to a non-gendered Being.
Ali ibn Ibrahim has narrated from Muhammad ibn ‘Isa from Yunus from Abu al-Maghra in a marfu‘ manner from Imam Abu Ja‘far who has said the following:
"Allah is distinct from His creatures and His creatures are different from Him and whatever that is called a thing is a creature except Allah."
Al-Kulayni, Usul al-Kafi H 217, Ch. 2, h 3
It is narrated from Imam Abu "Abd'ullah who said, "Allah is distinct from His creatures and the creatures are different from Him. Whatever could be
called a thing is a creature except Allah Who is the Creator of all things. Holy is He for Whom there is no similarity and He is all-hearing and
Al-Kulayni, Usul al-Kafi H 218, Ch. 2, h 4
So when "Hu" is said, in this text, it does not mean that Hu has sexual organs nor that Hu is anthropomorphic. For to think that really would assert
that it is not Allah who is anthropomorphic, but we human beings who are "god-like" since it is God who Existed long before creation, and Exists
outside of the context of time, beginning or end. So if one believes that God looks like man, has the gender of man, or the like then they are
essentially saying that man is a god-like creation. They do not comprehend Allah with the Understanding due unto Hu!
When we speak of God, of Allah, we do not speak of an anthropomorphic being. As the Tanakh says:
"God (El) is not a man (ish) that He should lie; nor the 'son of man/Adam' (a Hebrew term meaning 'human being' as all humans are the sons of
Adam) , that He should repent: when He has said, will He not do it? Or when He has spoken, will He not make it good?"
לֹא אִישׁ אֵל וִיכַזֵּב,
הַהוּא אָמַר וְלֹא
יַעֲשֶׂה, וְדִבֶּר וְלֹא
So clearly God is not a man, nor the "son of man." God is not Something that grows weary after creation. God is not a man who reproduces or begets
children, nor does God stem from any Source other than Himself, or Itself. God is the Source of ALL that exists, and of every potentiality that could
ever exist within the Divine Order, or Law of the Universal Construct that is the sustained Thought Construct of the Divine Mind.
God sees, but without the physical organ of sight, and for this reason it is said within Seferim Ha'Zohar that should the Eye of God close for even a
second, the Universe would be destroyed.
It is narrated from Imam Abu Ja‘far who said, "Allah is distinct from His creatures and the creatures are different from Him and whatever could be
called a thing is a creature except Allah Who is the Creator of all things."
Al-Kulayni, Usul al-Kafi H 219, Ch. 2, h 5
It is narrated from Imam Abu `Abd'ullah , who said this to an atheist on being asked a question. "He (Allah) is a thing but different from all other
things. I repeat my statement that speaks about Him as a thing. He is a thing in the sense of the reality of things except that He does not have a
body and form. He does not have a feeling (like our sense of feeling) or touching and He does not comprehend with the five senses (as we do).
Imaginations can not comprehend Him and the timeless (Dahr) times does not reduce Him and the times do not change Him."
The man asking questions then said, "Do you say that He hears and sees?"
The Imam said, "He does hear and see: He hears without a hearing organ and sees without a means. He Himself hears and He Himself sees. My saying "He
hears without a hearing organ and sees without a means. He Himself hears and He Himself sees" does not mean that He is a thing and His-self is
another thing but that I only meant to express my self thereby as I was questioned and explained to you as you had asked a question. Thus, I can say
that He hears with the whole of His-self but not in the sense that His whole self has parts but that I intended to explain it to you and to express my
self. All I meant thereby is that He does hear, see and He is all-knowing and is the expert in knowing without any multiplicity in His-self or
The man asking questions then said, "What then is He?"
The Imam said, "He is the Lord. He is the One Who is worshipped and He is Allah. When I say Allah, it does not mean establishing the proof for these
letters (of alphabet) like Alif, Lam, Ha’, al-Ra’ or al-Ba’ but I intend thereby the meaning of a thing and a thing that is the Creator of all things
and the Designer of all things. These letters only refer to the meaning that is called Allah, al-Rahman (the Beneficent), al-Rahim (the Merciful),
al-‘Aziz (the Majestic) etc., of the other such names and He is the One Who is worshipped, the Majestic, the Glorious One."
The man asking questions then said, "Given the above, whatever we can think of is but a creature."
The Imam then said, "Were it to the way you said we would not have had any responsibility to believe in the Oneness of the Creator because we will
not have any responsibility towards something of whose existence we can not even think of. In fact we say that whatever is thought of in our senses is
comprehended thereby by means of drawing limits around it and is analogized, thus, such a thing is a creature. (It then becomes necessary for us to
find proof for the existence of the Creator of things. (We must find that is) clear of the two invalid and confusing aspects) if the meaning of
negation would be nullification and nothingness or as is the case of the second aspect, the similarity and analogy which is of the attributes of the
creatures that under go manifest composition and assemblage. It becomes necessary to prove the existence of the Creator. It is because of the
existence of the creatures and their evident dependency on Him as His creatures and that their Creator is something other than them and that He is not
similar to them because something similar to them would resemble them in manifest composition and assemblage. It would be as such also in the matters
such as coming into existence from nothing and their changing from a smaller size to a full grown size, from blackness to whiteness from strength to
weakness and other existing conditions that we do not need to explain their existence."
The man asking questions then said, "You have already defined and limited Him in your proving His existence."
The Imam then said, "I did not limit Him. I only proved His existence if (as you think) there is no difference between proving and disproving."
The man asking questions then said, "Can His existence be proved through a reasoning from the effect to the cause or the cause to the effect?"
The Imam said, "Yes, there is nothing whose existence can be proved without adopting either of the two above process of reasoning."
The man then asked, "Does the question how apply to Him?"
The Imam said, "No, this question does not apply to Him because it is the aspect of qualities and limitations. However, it is necessary to avoid
abandoning and analogizing Him because negating Him is denying His existence and refusing to accept Him as the Lord and abandoning Him altogether.
Whoever would analogize Him with other things from His creatures he has proved the qualities of the creature in Him, the creatures that do not deserve
being called the Lord. It, however, is necessary to believe that the question how applies to Him only in a way that would not apply to things other
than Him and things other than Him would not deserve and share Him in it. The how question can not apply to Him if it would limit Him or make Him the
subject of knowing for others."
The man then asked, "Do things make Him tired?"
The Imam then said, "He is far Exalted and above experiencing such conditions. Such conditions are due to coming into physical association or dealing
with the creatures. They are of the qualities of the creatures who can only associate with others through physical contact but He is the Most High and
His will and demand are effective and He does whatever He wants."
Al-Kulayni, Usul al-Kafi H 220, Ch. 2, h 6
As can clearly be seen from the words of the Imams - the A'immah of the Ahl'ul-Bayt, the family of Muhammad and his progeny - our Lord is not some
anthropomorphic "god" like the polytheists imagine. Our "God" (the ONLY God and ONLY Reality), does not move from one place to another within
Space-Time. Allah is the ONLY Reality that is; this is the meaning of "La ilaha ill-Allah." Nothing exists save the Divine Mind's Thought
Construct, and within that Thought Construct are thoughts themselves and the individual identities of ego-selves (nufus), they come to be fomented and
identified by. These are the "you" and the "i."
However, in Islam, these things are nothing save thoughts within the Mind of Allah. Thus, an atheist may demand proof of the Existence of God, but
this stems from their ignorance in presuming that their own independent and separate Existence can be proven and taken for granted. So before such
people wish to see proof of God, they should prove that they themselves exist, and then demonstrate how their existence is separate from that Whole,
that Totality that is the very Construct of Allah's Mind. [Abu' Jamal]