To anyone Islamic, or of any other religion...

Originally posted by Ryanp5555
There is a difference about Jesus' body and Socrates body. Finding Jesus' body would prove this religion wrong, and they should know relatively where it is. The claim of the Shroud of Turin is, again, a point in which one can again show that Jesus did rise from the dead. Did you guys ever think that Muhammod was the Anti-Christ? Think about it. He has gathered over 1,000,000,000 followers in the world right now. He claimed to be the salvation, and was also quite violent. Maybe how we interprut the book of revalations is completely wrong. Here is some food for thought, why are things starting to happen as they can be interpretted in the book of revalations. All im saying is that if people just disappear, REPENT! Please repent.

I have a feeling that you didn't even look at the quotes i posted on the first page. A couple of responses after yours. Here i have a question for you. Why do you think God brings his message to "Mankind" To help us grow. God sent many of prophets to the earth. Adam being one of them. Adam was the first man. Thats just it, a man. Woman were first and our bodys prove it. The male cromozne is kind of like a mutation(Don't feel like explaing it getting off of subject). Moses was alost a prophet too. The human race is over 10,000 years old. Yet that is only a blink of an eyes in God's time. God has sent many prophets and will send many more. We all will leave this planet in one way or another. It is all mankind can do.

Originally posted by KSoze
How convenient...muslims believe everything in the New Testament EXCEPT the parts that would render Mr. Muhammed null and void.
You believe yeshua was a man, yet you don't believe he died? Please explain how yeshua got to heaven.

All people die. You will die one day we all will die. This planet is only a pit stop. Why are you bashing??? Of course Islam will borrow from Christianity it is a reality new religions. God's message doesn�t change. Christianity borrows from Judaism and certain pagan holidays and traditions. If you look around nothing has really changed except the "Labels" we put on what we do. Every thing is still the same as it was 2,000 years ago. The superpower is occupying and foreign land spreading it's rule of law. What else is new.

Basically don�t think that you know truth cause you don�t none of us do. You only find that out when you die. And I think that you will be more so judged by your actions than by what you tried to label your self as.


[edit on 27-6-2004 by DaTruth]

Originally posted by Ryanp5555
All im saying is that if people just disappear, REPENT! Please repent.

I noticed alot of ppl seemed to be confused from this quote. My guess is he is asking that if the rapture happens, to plz see the light and convert to christianity if you are not so already

---pineapple

Originally posted by River Euphrates
According to the Qur'an , the Prophet Abraham(pbuh) was the first man to coin the term " Muslims" and he stated that his companions and descendents are Muslims.

Of course, the Qur'an is just a ripped apart, editted version of the bible, so your "evidence" is not really that trustworthy.
Fact is that the bible was there way before the Koran, and that the Koran copied a lot of parts from the bible, and that the Koran suggests its readers to only partly believe in the things its prophets say.

Imagine there's no heaven,
It's easy if you try,
No hell below us,
Above us only sky,
Imagine all the people
living for today...

John lennon

People should have this song played to them while there in the Womb so with some luck they have it in there brains when there out in the world.

Mom and Dad re: Religious Rivalries

Dear Children (and believe us, that's all of you), We consider ourselves pretty patient folks. For instance, look at the Grand Canyon. It took millions of years to get it right
We've been patient through your fashions, civilizations, wars and schemes.

We want to let you know about some of the things that are starting to tick Us off.

First of all, your religious rivalries are driving Us up a wall. Enough already! Let's get one thing straight: These are YOUR religions, not Ours. We're beyond them all. Every one of your religions claims there is only one of Us (which by the way, is absolutely true). And each claims its scriptures were written personally by us, and that all the other scriptures are man-made. How do We even begin to put a stop to such complicated nonsense?

Okay, listen up now. We're your Father AND Mother, and We don't play favorites among Our children.

Also, We hate to break it to you, but We don't write. Our longhand is awful, and We've always been more of "doers" anyway. So, ALL of your books, including those Bibles and Qurans, were written by men and women. They were inspired, remarkable people, but they also made mistakes here and there. We made sure of that so that you would never trust a written word more than your own living heart.
You see, one human being to Us, even a bum on the street, is worth more than all the Holy Books in the world. That's just the kind of folks we are. Our spirit is not a historical thing. It's alive right here, right now, as fresh as your next breath.
.
Holy books and religious rites are sacred and powerful, but not more so than the least of you. They were only meant to steer you in the right direction, not to keep you arguing with each other, and certainly not to keep you from trusting your own personal connection with Us.

Which brings Us to Our next point about your nonsense; you act like We need you and your religions to stick up for Us or "win souls" for Our sake. Please, don't do Us any favors. We can stand quite well on our own, thank you. We don't need you to defend Us, and We don't need constant credit. We just want you to be good to each other.

The thing is, We want you to stop thinking of religion as some sort of loyalty pledge to Us.
The true purpose of your religion is so that YOU can become more aware of Us, not the other way around. Believe Us, We know you already. We know what's in each of your hearts, and We love you with no strings attached.
Lighten up and enjoy Us. That's what religion is best for.

What you seem to forget is how mysterious We are.
You look at the petty differences in your Scriptures and say, "Well, if THIS is the truth, then THAT can't be!" But instead of trying to figure out Our Paradoxes and Unfathomable Nature, which by the way, you NEVER will, why not open your hearts to the simple common threads in all religions.
You know what We're talking about. Love and respect everyone. Be kind, even when life is scary or confusing. Take courage and be of good cheer, for We are always with you. Learn how to be quiet, so you can hear Our still, small voice. (We don't like to shout).

Leave the world a better place by living your life with dignity and gracefulness, for you are Our Own Children. Hold back nothing from life, for the parts of you that can die surely will, and the parts that can't, won't.

Simple stuff. Why do you keep making it so complicated? It's like you're always looking for an excuse to be upset. And We're very tired of being your main excuse. Do you think We care whether you call Us: Yahweh, Jehovah, Allah, Diana, Wakantonka, Brahma, Cerridwen, Father, Mother, God, Goddess or even the Void of Nirvana? Do you think We care which of Our special children you feel closest to, Jesus, Mary, Buddha, Krishna, Gerald, Mohammed or any of the others? You can call Us and Our Special Ones any name you choose, if only you would go about Our business of loving one another as We love you. How can you keep neglecting something so simple?

We're not telling you to abandon your religions. Enjoy your religions, honor them, and learn from them, just as you should enjoy, honor, and learn from your parents.
Know that Our Special Children, the ones that your religions revolve around, all live in the same place, (Our heart), and they get along perfectly, We assure you.

The clergy must stop creating a myth of sibling rivalry where there is none. Our blessed children of Earth, the world has grown too small for your pervasive religious bigotries and confusion. The whole planet is connected by air travel, satellite dishes, telephones, fax machines, rock concerts, diseases, and mutual needs and concerns.
Get with the program! If you really want to help, then commit yourselves to figuring out how to feed your hungry, clothe your naked, protect your abused, and shelter your poor. And just as importantly, make your own everyday life a shining example of kindness and good humor. We've given you all the resources you need, if only you abandon your fear of each other and begin living, loving and laughing together.

We're not really ticked off. We just wanted to grab your attention because We hate to see you suffer.

In Perfect Love and Perfect Trust,

Us

just because you dont believe in them, doesn't mean they don't believe in you.

All Gods are One


Well, it had been yet another bad day in the office,
and once again it was the fault of that new girl,
Mary Anne. She is one of those Pagans, a so called
witch. How can anyone in their right mind make this
claim, knowing that it goes against God and all of the
teachings of the Bible?

She doesn't even have the common decency to keep her
satanic symbol, her pentagram necklace hidden from the
view of the decent, God fearing people in the office.
She has some nerve. I find that I cannot hate her
for this though, for I know that she has been
deceived. Satan works his evil in ways that she
cannot see. I've seen that so called Wiccan Rede that
she has tacked to the wall above her computer.
On the surface, it looks like a decent loving belief,
but all one must do is look, look closely and see that
by practicing this way, and not embracing Jesus
Christ as savior, she is on the pathway to hell.

As I've said, it was a bad day in the office. Three
times in the past few weeks I have been called in to
see my supervisor, and he has told me that I am not
allowed to preach to Mary Anne the word of God, to show
her the error of her ways. Today, my supervisor told
me that if I continue to "harass" Mary Anne, he will be
forced to terminate me. How can he say this? He
himself is a God fearing man. And, how can he be so
tolerant of the evil that he sees insinuating itself
into our workplace?

As I lay down to sleep last night, I asked the Lord
for guidance. "God, grant me a true vision of you, so
that I may better lead the faithless onto the
righteous path." "Oh, a true vision of Me is it?
Are you sure that you're ready, truly ready to see, my
son?"

I sat bolt upright in bed, and there, at the foot of
my bed, white of hair and beard, in a long, flowing
white robe, stood the Lord my God. I made to leap from
the bed and fall to my knees in front of Him, but he
stopped me with a gesture. "Kneel not before me at
this time my son. Instead, rise and walk with Me, so
that you may get a glimpse of what I truly am, as you
asked of me in your prayer."

He took my hand, and as I looked, my bedroom was no
longer there, but a pathway thru the woods. We started
to walk, and I was too awestruck for words. We took
the path to the left, and we were then inside St.
Catherine's Church, in the middle of a service. While
still standing beside me, God seemed to expand and
fill the whole of the church. I could see smiles of
contentment forming on some of the parishioners faces.
I felt blessed. God smiled upon me.

"The Catholics hold such pretty masses, don't they? I
like to stop here in this church, because not only do
they speak the words, but they live the life, thru
teaching, helping the sick and poor, not only with
handouts, but helping them learn to help themselves.
Now let us walk on."

And we were back on the pathway. We traveled a bit
further along, and then were in the parlor of a
funeral home. A young woman was kneeling before the
casket, resting her head on it and crying. I could see
by the similarity, that this dead man must be her
father. God knelt bedside her, and drew His arms about
her. "Miss him, that is all right, but weep not for
him, for now he is with Me." She wiped her eyes, and
stood with a sad smile upon her face, and said
"Good-Bye Daddy. I'll miss you." and turned and left
the room.

And we were back on the pathway. We walked a little
ways, and we were in front of a large lodge of
some kind. I could hear music and laughter spilling
out of the window. I turned to look at God, and was
shocked to see, not the flowing white robe, but Him
wearing leather and animal furs, his hair and beard
now the color of wheat, and a sword strapped across
His back. He strode forth, and I saw him approach a
figure I had not seen before. As I looked close, I was
shocked to see that it was the same face that I had
just seen dead, but looking young and strong, and
dressed in ancient looking garb, an ax strapped to his
waist. God strode up to him and grabbed him in a great
bear hug. "Welcome my son. We've been waiting for
you. Now, go inside and raise a cup or two, and meet
with your brother." And, with a hearty slap on the
back, he sent the man inside. And then we were back on
the pathway.

We walked a bit further, and then we were in a mosque.
At least I believed so, as I had never been in one
before, but had seen pictures of them. The group of
worshippers was not large, but I could see their rapt
faces as they listened to the mullah speak. He was
speaking to them of purity, both of the mind and the
body, bringing them closer to Allah. And as he spoke,
God, dressed now in the robes of the desert, walked
among them and briefly laid his hands upon each set of
shoulders. And, from their faces, I could see that
these men knew that the words of the mullah were true,
and that their spirits felt touched by God. And then
we were back on the pathway.

After we had walked a bit, we found ourselves in an
African village. People with skin as black as night,
the women with their breasts shamefully bared, were
dancing in a circle, to the rhythm of the drums being
played by a group of men. Somehow though, I was not
offended by the bared breasts, and the music seemed to
seep into my soul. God was then a mighty lion, and He
let forth a mighty roar. The villagers did not seem
to hear, but the drums increased their pounding, and
the dancers danced with a frenzy. and then we were
back on the pathway.

We walked a bit more, and were on the top of a cliff.
There sat, painted and covered with feathers, an old
Navajo man. As I watched, he seemed to change into
the form of an eagle and take flight, and we were
flying with him, soaring high into the air, seeing the
vista spread out below us. And God, in the form of an
eagle Himself, seemed to guide this other eagle thru
the air, over mountains and thru valleys, until he
came upon a group of men. As I watched, the old Navajo
man was no longer an eagle, but a young boy instead,
and he sat at the feet of these men, to listen to the
words of his elders. And then we were back on the
pathway.

We traveled a bit, and then we were in a forest
clearing. I knew this place. It was known as a place
of devil worship and evil. In the center of the
clearing roared a great bonfire, and kiwi torches
outlined a circle of sorts. Inside this circle, in a
circle themselves, stood 7 men and 6 women, dressed in
robes of varying colors, their arms raised to the
moon. Was that one woman Mary Anne? I really couldn't
be sure. And God walked among them in the circle,
touching each one. He seemed not to be an older
man now, but as he made each of three turns around the
circle, he was first a young girl, bouncing with
energy, then a woman of middle years, with a tender
smile for all Her children, and finally, an old woman,
body bent, but holding Her head up with pride. And a
woman stepped forward, and yes, it was Mary Anne, and
lifted her head to the sky. "Great Goddess, Mother of
us all, thank you for joining us tonight. Stay if You
will, go if You must. Know in our hearts You will
always be welcome. Blessed be!!"

And we were back on the pathway. As we walked along,
ahead in the distance I saw the most beautiful man.
Yes, beautiful, though I would never normally think of
a man this way. With blonde hair, and a golden robe,
he seemed to radiate sunshine. God and this golden man
nodded to each other as they passed, sharing a smile
together. "My Lord" I asked, "was that an angel?"
"Well, yes, he is known as that to some. He is also
known to some as a god himself. That was Lucifer."

And His words caused me to stumble. I couldn't believe
that we had just passed the ultimate evil. God looked
at me, and He knew my mind. And he chuckled a bit.
"Think about it logically My son. The Lucifer that you
know is a fallen angel, cast out of heaven for
challenging Me. If I am the all powerful being, above
all others, how could he do this? How could I allow
it?" "But, the Bible..." I stammered. "The Bible is a
wonderful book, as are the Koran and the Torah and
many others, but they are just books, written by the
hand of man, not written by Me. And, it's a bit
confusing as well if truth be known, but that's not up
to Me to fix. These books are wonderful, but only as
guidance, for each man and woman must think for
themselves." And, I believed He was right in this.

"Now, come forth, we must journey a little more before
you go back." And He took my hand once again. As we
followed the pathway, we soared thru the stars,
listening to the music of the heavens, we became a
little flower and a mighty oak, we became a babbling
brook, and a mighty ocean. We flitted from flower to
flower as a little honey bee, and ran across the
plains as a mighty stallion. And, all too soon, the
pathway returned us to my home. God held my hand a
moment longer, and smiled into my face, "My son, you
prayed tonight for a true vision of Me. For vision,
you must only open your eyes and see what there is to
see. Good night to you."

And then He was gone, and I was back in my bed. A
dream I thought, only a dream, that couldn't have been
real. At that time, a bolt of lightning lit up my room
thru the window, and thunder crashed thru the sky, and
I thought I heard, from seemingly far away, "Remember,
the Lord works in mysterious ways My son."

This morning as I entered the office, I went to the
machine for a cup of coffee, and standing there, I
spied Mary Anne. As I approached her, I could see her
barely cringe, and I could see in her face that she
was expecting yet another onslaught from me and my
book. She seemed to cast her eyes about for a way to
escape, but there was none. I walked up to her and
smiled. " I think I owe you a bit of an apology" I
said. "I've been a bit narrow minded of late, and I
really had no right to subject you to what I did. It's
not up to me to say how you find your path to your
spirit, and I was wrong to think that was so."
Mary Anne just stood there, not knowing what to say.
"So, I just wanted to say that I'm sorry,
and I hope you will forgive my trespass. God bless you
Mary Anne, and...uh...Blessed Be?"

You know, I always thought that it was just a saying,
about people's jaws dropping to the floor, but
Mary Anne did her best at that moment to prove me
wrong...


thought some might appreciate these

[edit on 27-6-2004 by stalkingwolf]

Originally posted by Jakko

Originally posted by River Euphrates
According to the Qur'an , the Prophet Abraham(pbuh) was the first man to coin the term " Muslims" and he stated that his companions and descendents are Muslims.

Of course, the Qur'an is just a ripped apart, editted version of the bible, so your "evidence" is not really that trustworthy.
Fact is that the bible was there way before the Koran, and that the Koran copied a lot of parts from the bible, and that the Koran suggests its readers to only partly believe in the things its prophets say.

How can you make such a sweeping generalization....

look at your Bible?

Was it not plagiarized from the Epic of Gilgamesh, the Bacchas and The Torah?

Wasn't Jesus visited by the Elder Magis during his early life.....Did'nt Persian/Zoroastrian myths creep into the Bible.....


You see....I could make countles theories about your Bible being plagiarized? Now what...you feel dissed right?

Well, the truth is Correlation does not imply Causation. Just Because different Scriptures have certain things in common does not mean one plagiarized the other...It could point to a Divine Origin.....

but then again ...using your logic


Christianity is really a Reincarnation of the Old Hindu Religion.....lets take a look---



"From the outset, the fourth canonical Gospel opens with the infamous, yet plagerized, quote: "In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with Allah and the Word was Allah." These are the very words of Rig Veda of India.

In the beginning was Brahman [God] (Prajapatir vai idam asit)

With whom was the Vak [Word] (Tasya vag dvitya asit)

And the word is Brahman [God] (Vag vai paramam Brahma)

The similarities between these two quotes are too close to possibly disregard. But far from the Gospel having influenced the writing of the Vedas, we know that the Vedas are among the most ancient of all world Scriptures. Clearly, these words found their way from the Vedas of India into the Gospel "according to" John. Many will ask, or rather they should ask, how can this be if the New Testament is the Word of God, written by Divine Inspiration?"

That's not even the New Testament you're talking about...
I'm not generalising, just stating facts. The Koran "borrowed" parts from the bible, period. Not the other way around.
And Christianity did not borrow any ideas from any religion, and don't worry, I'm not going to feel dissed no matter how many flawed theories you can come up with.

Paperclip, You haven't debunked anything. If you took the time to read all of my post instead of pulling things out of context this would be apparent. I clearly showed that I was fully aware that islam accepted other prophets and messengers. No need for the Qu'ran quotes.
Islam believes that even though other messengers and prophets came; their message was corrupted.
I have simply asked for a source of information outside the Qu'ran that these others people's messages were corrupted and the Qu'ran is right. Noone has offered anything.
You CANNOT logically use the Qu'ran in this argument because it is the very thing you are TRYING to verify. The bible is unreliable and corrupted according to islam so when you use the bible you are using a corrupted source. Do you muslims have anything substantial to offer?
The Qu'ran says to submit to Moses and jesus because they were prophets, etc...The bible teaches many things that aren't in the Qu'ran. If the bible is corrupted (which it is) then how can you be sure that the parts taken out of the bible that you assert as truth aren't corrupted also.
To illustrate this, I asked how muslims could be sure that jesus was born of a virgin because it was questionable by the earliest christians. This question has went unanswered.
All I want is a verifiable OUTSIDE source that all the other peoples' messages were corrupted and the Qu'ran's message is correct. I hope I have made this clear. Prove this and i'll convert to islam.
River Euphrates, I respect your manner of conversing. There are those that always accuse others of bashing if they question the logic of their beliefs. Your obviously above that. i did read the website you posted. i understand what its saying. There is an underlying truth in all the past religions. However, I believe islam contains corrupted elements just like all the religions.
Mithra, attack my brain capacity if you wish...it does nothing to enhance what you THINK is true. The only thing that offends me is religious people telling the world BELIEVE or ELSE. I was fully aware of the CAN in your statement. How does that make you muslims feel. Killers and child molesters may get out of hell and live in heaven with you. There is a 50% chance that it doesn't matter whether you even believe in god or whether you serve another religion.
For any muslim, Was muhammed sure of his eternal salvation?

Originally posted by Jakko
That's not even the New Testament you're talking about...
I'm not generalising, just stating facts. The Koran "borrowed" parts from the bible, period. Not the other way around.
And Christianity did not borrow any ideas from any religion, and don't worry, I'm not going to feel dissed no matter how many flawed theories you can come up with.

I'm not choosing sides here but, Jakko, if this is a response to River regarding the phrase "In the beginning was the word, and the word was with God, and the word was God"....well, it is from the new testament. It is John 1:1. And I cannot say whether or not it is also in the Rig Veda but I take Rivers word for it and the Rig Veda is dated between approximately 1500 BC (though many Yogis claim it is from between 4000 and 12,000 BC). Either way, this is much, much older than the book of John which was written long after the death of Jesus (estimated between 85 - 90 AD).

Originally posted by KSoze
Muhammed wasn't even sure of his own salvation. Which totally contradicts the logic of this. If everyone is getting out of hell then he could have been 100% sure of his salvation. Was muhammed saved?

I do not know much about Muhammed nor his teachings. But, from a christian perspective I find Muhammed's uncertainty refreshing.

Let me explain:

A few years back, I saw a bumper sticker that said "In case of Rapture, this car will be unmanned."
I wondered to myself, "Why do they make such claims?"
To make such a claim one must judge themself worthy of salvation. This is hubris-- pride. Pride is not the way to heaven. I have seen this same hubris during numerous times while discussing "going to heaven" with other christians.

I do not know if Islam teaches humility. But I see humility reflected in Muhammed's uncertainty of salvation. I find that refreshing indeed. Perhaps I will spend time learning more about this man and his teachings.

KSoze,

Originally posted by KSoze
Islam believes that even though other messengers and prophets came; their message was corrupted.
I have simply asked for a source of information outside the Qu'ran that these others people's messages were corrupted and the Qu'ran is right. Noone has offered anything.

To Islam, the Bible is only a "respected" collection of writings because it's not written by a Prophet and it has been corrupted. There's several reasons why:

Firstly, language, It's not in the original language. You think so what? Let me just tell you that whenever you translate something there is corruption in it's meaning, this is a fact. Translation requires a man to choose what phrases or words best fit, any translation is also an interpretation; words in one language can mean many things in another it can induce lots of error.

The Bible you read is in English, which wasn't even around at Jesus' time. You need to show me the Bible from way back when it was made, and in it's original language before we can even start to talk about non-corruption. The Qur'an is still in its original language with exact copies dating back to within a few centuries after Muhammad, and fragments within a century.

Secondly, variation, there are a huge number of Bible versions, the Protestant Bible has a substantially different number of books in it than the Catholic one. Then the wording is quite different between each. The fact that there is such a deviation shows corruption. There is only one Qur'an, anything else (translations too) are not called the Qur'an. The various "sects" of Islam use the same Qur'an. You might mention Nation of Islam, I believe they use a translation thus not Qur'an-based, and in it they've added crap like "the white man is a devil."

Thirdly, contradiction there are definite contradictions in the Bible. Anything from whether the apostles implying Christ was son of God yet Christ implying this was not so; to different versions of the resurrection in the Gospels. Obvious contradictions usually arise because of lies, when you make a lie there's something somewhere else that doesn't fit. There are pretty much no definite contradictions that I know of in the Qur'an, please share if you know of one but understand the meaning before jumping to conclusions.

Finally, author, how about the history of the NT Bible, certainly a lot of it was written long after Jesus left, for example by Paul. How can the writers be so sure of anything if some of them never even met Jesus. The Qur'an was recited from the Prophet himself, there is no available equivalent in Christianity. The nearest equivalent to the Bible is the Islamic Hadith and the Hadith is only "respected" like the Bible. As some Hadith have very good verification (several authors from the time, agreeing in different Hadith) so in this way it is used as a guide to Islam.

You CANNOT logically use the Qu'ran in this argument because it is the very thing you are TRYING to verify. The bible is unreliable and corrupted according to islam so when you use the bible you are using a corrupted source. Do you muslims have anything substantial to offer?

The verification of the Qur'an was done long ago. The oldest fragments of the Qur'an match the modern Qur'an, Muslims believe it is still in its original form, and there is no good evidence to say it isn't. Islam does not use the Bible for anything other than to point out to Christians that their own book not only has plenty of contradictions but does, if you interpret it properly, support what the Qur'an says.

The Qu'ran says to submit to Moses and jesus because they were prophets, etc...The bible teaches many things that aren't in the Qu'ran. If the bible is corrupted (which it is) then how can you be sure that the parts taken out of the bible that you assert as truth aren't corrupted also.

The Qur'an says submitting is only to God. Nothing is taken out of the Bible, the original Message of Islam was given to all Prophets. Jesus would have had a Gospel too, which would have been the same message as the Qur'an. Those original messages to Jesus etc. have been lost, hence the need for Muhammad to renew it.

To illustrate this, I asked how muslims could be sure that jesus was born of a virgin because it was questionable by the earliest christians. This question has went unanswered.

The Qur'an says so, that is enough for a Muslim. If you can believe God created man from mud then you can believe Jesus was born of a virgin.

All I want is a verifiable OUTSIDE source that all the other peoples' messages were corrupted and the Qu'ran's message is correct. I hope I have made this clear. Prove this and i'll convert to islam.

I've given you absolute proof that the Bible is corrupted. Don't you think that if Jesus' own Gospel is lost (the Bible doesn't even claim to have his) or that the Bible is corrupt then God would have sent another, well He did - it's the Qur'an, and for all of mankind. Even the Bible said He would send another Prophet, if you interpret it the way Muslims do (and no, I'm not using the Bible as proof for Muslims, just "proof" for Christians). Of course there's evidence either way, and if you don't want to believe even the evidence means nothing.

Something not scientific but noteworthy: It's hard to explain but there are many other small yet important reasons why Muslims believe the Qur'an is divine, one is the comfort they get when reading it, or the fear they feel, that isn't felt in any other book. Then there's the beauty of the Arabic (even I who cannot understand still appreciates a good recitation) which makes grown men who have recited the Qur'an hundreds of times breakdown in tears. One of the reasons why Islam grew was the unrivalled poetry in the Qur'an.

Mithra, attack my brain capacity if you wish...it does nothing to enhance what you THINK is true. The only thing that offends me is religious people telling the world BELIEVE or ELSE. I was fully aware of the CAN in your statement.

Surely, if you were aware then you should write like you were aware and not have made that remark earlier? Then there won't be a misunderstanding, and I'm not saying I have anything more than an opinion! Anyway, I'm replying in the hope we can hold a conversation where our views stem from first understanding both ideas fully then making a decision.

How does that make you muslims feel. Killers and child molesters may get out of hell and live in heaven with you. There is a 50% chance that it doesn't matter whether you even believe in god or whether you serve another religion.
For any muslim, Was muhammed sure of his eternal salvation?

The same applies to Christianity where it is believed that murderers can go straight to Heaven? I believe Islam says that those in Heaven won't have any hard feelings toward anyone, I guess if the murderers have paid their price and God knows when they've truly regretted it, the residents of Heaven will not care. Surely just because of a few crimes a person who has also done good and regrets his bad actions doesn't deserve an eternity (you realise this is a long time

) in Hell, you don't jail a person for life for stealing something do you?

Anyway, the point of saying "a person in Hell can later be put into Heaven" is because God can do absolutely anything, if He wishes - even put one in Heaven into Hell! It's up to Allah whether Muhammad goes to Heaven, even Muhammad knew that. There are other reasons for actually leading a good life and one is that Heaven has many layers depending on how much reward you deserve - but a truly good Muslim follows Islam out of simple love for God.

mithras, Thank you for your info in this thread

My BIG question remains, Is there 2 different kinds of Muslims? and if So why is the Devout Religious Muslims not in such an uproar over Al-Qaeda, Bin Laden and such. I know many Muslims who do not want to be mentioned with these 'killers', and that they are mis-representing the Q'uran.

Trick

Repeated 100 times
Refuted 100 times

It's nice for me to finally see a community of Muslims and people who understand the religion Islam and defend it with such a passion that I have shown over the years.

I don't even have to say anything, I can actually sit back and read this one. It's great.

to the person who said it has been debunked, with the whole Shroud of Turin, no it hasn't. It is impossible that it is painted on, why don't you try reading about it. It is ACTUAL blood, read about it more. And yes, i was trying to say that if the apocolyspe happens and jesus takes people away, and you happen to be left behind, please repent, and don't accept the mark of satan.

Originally posted by TrickmastertricK
mithras, Thank you for your info in this thread

My BIG question remains, Is there 2 different kinds of Muslims? and if So why is the Devout Religious Muslims not in such an uproar over Al-Qaeda, Bin Laden and such. I know many Muslims who do not want to be mentioned with these 'killers', and that they are mis-representing the Q'uran.

Trick

I am christian, but I do believe there are two kinds of ppl for any faith. The ones who actually want to follow their God and do good, and the other ones who use their faith as an excuse to get away with doing terrible things. Terrorists fall under the latter, while all the Islamic ppl i know fall under the former. Its too bad a minority had to cause all that trouble in America for the majority.

Originally posted by Jakko
And Christianity did not borrow any ideas from any religion, and don't worry, I'm not going to feel dissed no matter how many flawed theories you can come up with.

Umm....what?? Jesus was Jewish. Many of the books in the Bible are from the Jewish Torah. Christianity is basically Jews who believe the Messiah has already returned(if some1 Jewish could plz correct me if i am wrong, but this is the truth to the best of my knowledge), so how could they NOT have borrowed ideas from Judaism?

---pineapple

Originally posted by pineappleupsidedown
Umm....what?? Jesus was Jewish. Many of the books in the Bible are from the Jewish Torah. Christianity is basically Jews who believe the Messiah has already returned(if some1 Jewish could plz correct me if i am wrong, but this is the truth to the best of my knowledge), so how could they NOT have borrowed ideas from Judaism?

Of course the jewish religion is the beginning of Christianity, the jewish religion basicly is Christianity, believing in the same God, but Christianity did not borrow ideas from any other religion, because Christianity is not some story that's made up by someone.
Christianity can be backed up by historical facts, allthough not fully, it does prove that Christianity was not created by humans that were inspired by other religions, as some try to make it sound.

The Islam on the other hand,

Hello Trick,

Originally posted by TrickmastertricK
My BIG question remains, Is there 2 different kinds of Muslims? and if So why is the Devout Religious Muslims not in such an uproar over Al-Qaeda, Bin Laden and such. I know many Muslims who do not want to be mentioned with these 'killers', and that they are mis-representing the Q'uran.

You can see plenty of mention of condemnation by Muslims (even devout) about these "terrorists" but you won't see it in the Western media because the first place the media go to is the government. Similiarly you don't hear many Christian church leaders condemn what happens in Abu-Ghraib or Bosnia, simply because the media don't go to them! Bear in mind Islam doesn't have a "pope" anymore, so the media don't see any single religious Muslim leader worthy enough to go to. The fact is the methods the "terrorists" use are utterly un-Islamic - every Muslim, even the terrorists (should) know that the Qur'an condemns killing innocents and suicide, it's the motive that is where there might be "understanding," and so I'll give my opinion on what this motive is:

Muslims are also wondering how Israel has managed to suddenly appear just after WW2 and forcibly grow to cover most of Palestine, where is the uproar in the West - there is none since they are supporting Israel and even vetoing UN rulings against them! Think about why ordinary, white, American or British citizens go over to Palestine and protest against Israel with their lives (Rachael Corrie for example), there must be a good reason to do that, right? Perhaps they know something is wrong...

Why were the Jews suddenly aided by the US in making a state for themselves in the middle of Palestine. Why not take a state of America. The root reason is not to do with having a state of their own, or a hand in oil, or to keep the Mid-East in a prolonged war (these are just handy side-effects), it's in the Jewish and Christian doctrine that says Jews will return to Palestine again. Some believe that God will give them Palestine but others believe that they must themselves take it regardless of whether it means uprooting homes. This is the only way, according to prophecy, that the Messiah will come - they'll have to rebuild their Temple at Jerusalem too, so look out for that. Can we drive people out of their homes because of a belief? Apparently yes.

On the other side: The Palestinians have been evicted, seen their homes bulldozed down to accommodate more Jews, and had family members killed in the process. Can we really blame them that they feel the way they do? Is this Islam ordering them or their own situation? So while Muslims would love to condemn the terrorists, they would also have to condemn Western governments. Rather than do either (and some do both or either), it's best to talk with reason so that people may decide on what's the truth.

Now let's see what Bush would have us believe: "These terrorists are jealous of American freedom and wealth." Ah yes, Osama was a millionaire so naturally he's going to be jealous! Or others in his admin suggest "they want 72 virgins." You have to be pretty "patriotic" to believe this, especially since we are seeing his administration involved in so many scandals: WMD, election rigging, prison torture.

The scarey thing is, the existence of Israel is helping towards what Islam has prophecised and even Muhammad's description that Muslims will be "everywhere but weak, like scum in a flood" is here, so all sides can see this as inevitable; but Muslims really don't like this forced eviction part. Anyway, in short, I believe that much of this terrorism is purely about land and tit-for-tat killing; (originally at least) nothing to do with Islam but there's plenty to do with religion on Israel's part. All the Qur'an says is you have a right to defend yourself, and this is how the Palestinians see it - since they've got no weapons they resort to their own bodies! So they are misrepresenting it by killing innocents but representing it by defending themselves. The Qur'an (and mention of Allah) is just prominent in every-day life in that culture: example, some Muslims say God's name even before they have a drink, so it's no surprise the "Muslim terrorists" also read from the Qur'an before doing such drastic actions.

Originally posted by Ryanp5555
to the person who said it has been debunked, with the whole Shroud of Turin, no it hasn't. It is impossible that it is painted on, why don't you try reading about it. It is ACTUAL blood, read about it more. And yes, i was trying to say that if the apocolyspe happens and jesus takes people away, and you happen to be left behind, please repent, and don't accept the mark of satan.

The only way to prove this is to become forensic scientists and to sample the shroud for ourselves, but we can't do that without being arrested. So we're left with listening to opinions of "scientists" that themselves differ; bear in mind that it is the non-Islamic community that is disagreeing! Now I said "paint" because that's what some research led us to believe, but other research believes there is evidence the stuff on there is products from blood, but not blood itself, from what I remember. Pick whoever you want to believe, but it would seem to me that there is a huge motive for it being a forgery rather than the incredible chance of finding the "real thing."

Just suppose it is blood, does that prove it's Jesus'? Nope it could be the forger's blood or the blood of another crucified man. Suppose it was the blood and shroud of the person who was thought to be Jesus. The Qur'an says someone was crucified in Jesus' place. So this Shroud line of reasoning won't get anywhere with regards to disproving the Qur'an. Muslims have no reason to say it's not blood!

I really don't know what you mean by the last statement but if you mean what I think: and Jesus returns declaring himself as being God with absolute proof, that would be good reason to be a Christian I guess! But why do you bring this up as though it's some kind of proof or fact, it is speculation about the future. I hope likewise you will find it good reason to submit to God (Islam) if Jesus returns and does too. Try not to use "arguments" where the other side can just turn it against you.

Originally posted by Jakko
Of course the jewish religion is the beginning of Christianity, the jewish religion basicly is Christianity, believing in the same God, but Christianity did not borrow ideas from any other religion, because Christianity is not some story that's made up by someone.
Christianity can be backed up by historical facts, allthough not fully, it does prove that Christianity was not created by humans that were inspired by other religions, as some try to make it sound.

The Islam on the other hand,

is to Christianity what Christianity is to Judaism. Christians believe Jews are misguided (read corrupted understanding of their own religion), while they believe the Muslims follow a false prophet. Similiarly the Muslims think the Christians (and Jews) are misguided (read corrupted understanding of their own Bible).

It seems that the newer religions think the ones before are misguided whereas the older religions "hate" the newer religions for following "false prophets."

Islam doesn't feel it borrows any ideas at all, it is the exact same idea that Jesus and others before him taught.