Originally posted by mithras
Well, in the sense that the Christians see Jews as not recognising written prophecies about the Messiah as relating to the Jesus of 2000 years ago (is
that agreeable?). In a related way:- Some Muslims(*) see the Christians interpreting the Bible in a way that involves a Holy Ghost coming into them;
whereas some Muslims believe the words Comforter & Spirit in the Gospels actually relate to Muhammad, Gabriel and the Qur'an.
(*)If I say "some Muslims," I'm really trying to say, "my view, shared with other Muslims" about things related to Christianity. Many Muslims
don't need to consider Christianity because they live in places with no Christians, hence only some would need to have a view on this other than for
interest in additional Holy Texts.
Anyway I've tried to keep that as inoffensive as possible. We don't have to discuss that idea if you prefer; was only brought up because it was the
only way for me to answer the thread topic, due to common ground only being the Bible.
You were concise and I was not offended. I believe this to be the focus of the lesson I am trying to convey. I may yet be forced to return to this
before I feel it is time.
Add a "some" before Christians in first sentence and I think I agree. I know many Christians and Jews say we all worship the same God. Certainly
Muslims should believe the "older" religions relate to the same God just different interpretations.
Yes, yes. "Some" before Christians! I was not clear in my intent. Thank you for seeing with clarity my intent and correcting me.
While many Jews or Christians may know, I will not say "many" Christians or Jews understand the meaning of this knowledge. I have been taught the
Truth of this, and I see the Truth I was taught in the Qur'an. Which are indeed the next two points, so I shall continue with those.
[2:62] Surely, those who believe, those who are Jewish, the Christians, and the converts; anyone who believes in GOD, and believes in the Last Day,
and leads a righteous life, will receive their recompense from their Lord. They have nothing to fear, nor will they grieve.
There's two things to consider here:-
1) The main thing is: In Islam you don't really have to have a label to get in Heaven. If a Jew or Christian believes in God the same way as a
Muslim, that may be enough. But following Islam will please Him. Muslims aren't guaranteed Paradise - in fact seems the only religion that
Labels are created to aid in understanding. Man desires to understand. He is rational. (or at least has the potential to be rational)
Indeed words themselves were created to record understanding. They too are labels.
Labels are required to tell another what one understands.
So too is this true concerning God.
This brings me to my concern (from a Muslim) about the Trinity. How can we say if that will be viewed as polytheism by Allah? This is why I try
to ask Christians (shall I say Trinitarians?) how can they be sure the first commandment is not being broken.
Christians is a fine enough label. Followers of the teachings of Christ.
You ask how I can be sure. This is the same as asking "How do you know Allah is the one true God?"
They are labels. To put a label on what I was taught as simply as I can:
"God is everything
, and more."
Everything is the best label I can use to describe what God is. And it does not describe him adequately.
Yes, we're seen as that by Islam. But keep in mind what I said about the Trinity which may be "shirk."
I see your mind beginning to open.
Also, this is only seen as half the ticket to Heaven, the other is following an Islamic (at best) or at least good way of life.
Indeed I was taught the same, the 'understanding' of God is not all that is needed.
The Torah and Injil (Jesus' Gospel) are seen by us as either just (vague) remnants in the modern Bible or completely lost. The Qur'an is the same
basic message as those lost messages (Muslim view).
So, I ask you, How can remnants be enough to be half a ticket to Heaven?
See this is the problem, someone, maybe you, said no need to mention the Bible or Christians in explaining Islam. But it is all so connected
because all the Prophets and Books are mentioned in Qur'an. I don't want to sound rude, when I say the Torah and Injil are not what you have in the
Bible (or only remnants), but there's little choice if we're discussing them.
I did say that. For it was as I was taught.
You do not need to mention Christians to explain Islam. You do not need to mention Muslims to explain Judaism. You do not need to mention Jews to
explain Islam. You do not need to mention Muslims to explain Christianity.
It is not all so connected because all the Prophets and Books are mentioned in the Qur'an.
It is all so connected because they teach a different understanding of the same thing.
To explain Islam, you need to mention God and what He wants of his people.
To explain Christianity, you need to mention God and what He wants of his people.
To explain Judaism, you need to mention God and what He wants of his people.
This is much like what the Qur'an says. Though it give somewhat more detail than your answer.
Sometimes too many words (labels) are not good. Sometimes not enough words (labels) are not good. It is the understanding of the meaning of those
words (labels) which is important.
My words (labels) and the words (labels) in the Qur'an describe the same understanding of the meaning.
But, is it not enough to believe that Allah can arbitrarily change things in the universe? Rather like we can daydream making up a world
exactly how we want. Why ask how when it won't affect salvation? In fact asking how and drawing wrong conclusions could be a sin.
You ask if it is enough to believe that Allah can arbitrarily
change things in the universe. I do not doubt that He can. But is this enough?
This sounds like what is known as "Blind Faith".
Knowing God is, and what he wants of me is enough. But if "God is" and "He wants me to love him with all that I am" were all I knew, how could I
teach this to my children? Children have an open mind that seeks understanding and will inevitably ask "Why is this so?"
For the sake of all the children in the world, and anyone else who wants to learn the way of God, I say no. "Blind Faith" is not enough. One needs
to be able to explain why when asked why. In order to explain, one must understand.
Now, one may ask "How much do I need to understand?"
One needs to understand as much as it takes to explain why "God is
and He wants me to love him with all that I am
This is what I was taught.
There is only one Truth, this is logical yes?
This is as I was taught.
Islam gives all you need to know about Allah, adding anything else is fruitless and maybe even arrogant.
I do not doubt these words.
Indeed, this is what I seek to understand.
However, it is also fruitless and maybe even arrogant to think only
Islam gives all you need to know about the One True God.
I decide on which not based on feeling but reasoning. Islam does not ask you to just believe, it gives you proof. It cannot prove to you, but
only you can disprove a claim. This you do by studying all evidence (Qur'an, Bible, rumoured "missing links to apes," historical texts),
weighing their reliabilites, considering all theories (and motives for interpretations), and reaching a most likely conclusion. Finding errors and
contradictions is part of that. This is the process of scientific research - they call that "proof."
I call that the understanding of how to answer a question. And indeed how to answer the question that follows that answer, and how to answer the
question that follows that answer, and how to answer the question that follows that answer... (repeat until you run out of breath)
Similiarly I believe, to be open-minded, you should forget anything Nicean and post-Nicean - everything Paul said, because that is
interpretation. You could say "Muhammad wasn't a Prophet and interpreted the Bible," okay but first read and understand Islam and the (weaker)
evidence in the ahadith, before judging?
If you say I must put away what I know in order to order to understand what I read in the Qur'an, is it not also acceptable for me to ask the same of
you if you desire understanding of the Bible?
In regards to judging, it is not my place to judge. Also I say it is not your place either, for there is Another that reserves judgement for Himself.
In this regard, I am at a disadvantage. The Qur'an already contains the judgment you seek to understand concerning Christianity. I have nothing but
my understanding, as it was taught to me, concerning Islam.
Maybe you will find one interpretation better.
Easier to teach to another. Perhaps. Better? It is not my place to make such judgement.
If you can understand my view here or not, please let me know.
The only thing I do not understand is how you can have an open mind and an opinion at the same time.
Yes but then if you say the palm is not the fingers, you are seemingly saying God is made up of three separate parts. For me, a theory must be logical
and fit the evidence, to be believed.
If I put my hand in boiling water, is it not enough to say "I have burned my hand?"
These things are just labels to aid in understanding.
I ask you what was breathed into Adam, what was placed into Jesus?
I say they are but labels to understand the Truth. So too is the trinity.
See I have a problem with logic there, that I don't have in Islam. Okay maybe you could get logic into that, but then I think that is breaking
the first commandment.
I'm not sure if you understand my view or I understand yours. I'll think about it more and find a better way of explaining.
Time out! Perhaps we are going about this the wrong way.
You wish to explain your understanding.
My understanding of your understanding of the Truth will not help me.
If you wish to help me show me the Truth. If I do not see it for the Truth, then help me understand the Truth. If through humility I see the Truth, I
will explain to you why 'your' Truth and 'my' Truth are the same.
The Truth I seek: What does the Qur'an say concerning the Trinity? I know one passage. Are there more? Tell me of your Truth so that I may
Where did I come from?
Why am I here?
To Love God.
How did you do that?
How do I do that?
In essence, Jesus was the answer to man's question, "How do I do that?" God replied, "Let me show you."
This is enough to accept?
"From God. To Love God." is enough to accept. But it is not enough to explain to another that "From God. To Love God." is enough to accept.
I went to that web page in humility, to learn.
I got down past half the page, and had to stop. This is the paragraph I was on when I stopped.
The difference between Muslims and Christians is that Muslims use the original words that Jesus and all the prophets used. In speaking of John
16:7-13, most Christians will tell you that the "Comforter" Jesus will send is the Holy Ghost. But keep in mind that the Holy Ghost was around
before Jesus. In the Aramaic we see that the translation is "Spirit." Jesus, peace be upon him, was talking about the one who would ONLY appear when
He joined His Father in Heaven*. In other words, this Spirit of Truth (a man) was never around before. The man Jesus sent was Muhammad.
In order for this to be true, John 14 (John 14:16-17 in particular) must also be wrong. They do not mention this, which site would you send me now so
that I can find "The real message of the life and teachings of Jesus," (also from that page) as it is written in the Christian
The Truth is not a puzzle in which you can slam square pegs into round holes. It is a house of cards. Remove a single card and watch the entire house
Indeed, show me a web page that will explain each of these resulting changes to the Truth that is found in the Bible. Surely at least one Muslim must
have interpretted the whole of the Bible to accomidate the removal of this one Truth.
This I say to you, Allah called Christians people of the Book. Would this not mean the Bible is "good enough" to teach a Christian that "God is.
Love God." is enough?
[edit on 4-7-2004 by Raphael_UO]