To anyone Islamic, or of any other religion...

This is not a message that is intended to offend, or persecute any other religion. And in no way am i saying Muslims are violent.... This is just a few questions of misunderstanding, and just not able to comprehend some things. I will start asking.

1. How can you say Jesus Christ was not the savior when he is a prophet in the Koran... yet he said himself that he was the son of god. I mean you have to believe he existed to be muslim, but beyond that, you guys recoginze that he is some sort of prophet. To me this says that the people of Islam, during Jesus' time, saw that Jesus was indeed the savior, but were stubborn and feared that it would mean they were wrong all along. Maybe that is just my view point, but anyways.... if jesus wasn't the savior then where is his body?

2. Can you just give me a quick over view of your religion? I.E. God created earth in 7 days, he put Adam and Eve on earth. They ate the apple of knowledge, descendants later Earth was a terrible place with only one man worthy of God, Noah, who then was told by God to build a ship that would survive the floods. After the floods humanity was basically reset. And in time God sent his only son, Jesus Christ, to die for our sins, and once the apocalypse happens he will come again. All will be judged.

Something like that... Thanks.

From a Muslim's perspective, and there's nothing offensive in your post at all:

Originally posted by Ryanp5555
1. How can you say Jesus Christ was not the savior when he is a prophet in the Koran...

He is one of the great Prophets, born of a virgin birth, performed miracles in his stay on Earth, led a completely sinless life, gave his people the original Gospel; and did not die but is in Heaven ready to return to us at an appointed time. He is also just a man, and no comparison to God and will someday die like anyone else. Hope this answers where his body is. In a sense he is a saviour because he passed a message of truth to us, just like any other Prophet.

...yet he said himself that he was the son of god. I mean you have to believe he existed to be muslim, but beyond that, you guys recoginze that he is some sort of prophet. To me this says that the people of Islam, during Jesus' time, saw that Jesus was indeed the savior, but were stubborn and feared that it would mean they were wrong all along. Maybe that is just my view point, but anyways.... if jesus wasn't the savior then where is his body?

Muslims believe that while the Bible is a source of some true knowledge, it is also mixed with some possibly false statements (see how much Paul added yet he never even met Jesus) and over time words have changed due to translations from one language to another. We can't say exactly what is changed so instead everything is looked at with some degree of suspicion.

Just look at the differences between Bible versions and you will see what is meant. Look at the statements within the same version of Bible, sometimes there is only one god, sometime there is a son, sometimes everyone is called a son of god. The apostles each give a slightly different story of the resurrection as another example. If you can't appreciate that the Bible has lost some original meaning or is not entirely accurate then I guess we could argue forever.

So you say that Jesus himself said he was son of God. Where did you get this from, the Bible yes? There is only about one place where Jesus reportedly says it, if I remember correctly; and this one place can take on other meanings too. If you agree with the above paragraphs then you would logically consider that particular line in the Bible might also be wrong. Consider also that other verses say there is only one god and others definitely suggest Jesus and God are different, and the line is really in trouble. There is a confusion here and this is what they discussed a long time ago at Nicea. Solution was to invent the Trinity; this is speculation to me as it is based on very flimsy evidence! The Trinity might be seen by God as breaking the first commandment so don't you think it needs some really solid evidence?

You mention that the people of Islam at Jesus' time might have seen him and refused to accept. You've posed this in a difficult way because that is assuming Jesus taught modern Christianity. Muslims believe he taught Islam and not what you call Christianity today, and that his message was corrupted by men (Romans) later on to form Christianity. The Catholic church was around before Jesus, the Romans just mixed religions (their polytheism with Jesus' Islam) together to get everyone under one command. Islam doesn't mean you have to be an Arab or anything, it simply means submission to God.

If there were Muslims (not by name) back at Jesus' time then they already would have been practicing what Jesus taught.

2. Can you just give me a quick over view of your religion? I.E. God created earth in 7 days, he put Adam and Eve on earth. They ate the apple of knowledge, descendants later Earth was a terrible place with only one man worthy of God, Noah, who then was told by God to build a ship that would survive the floods. After the floods humanity was basically reset. And in time God sent his only son, Jesus Christ, to die for our sins, and once the apocalypse happens he will come again. All will be judged.

God is a being unimaginable to man except that He is eternal, infinitely powerful and knowledgable (He knew all that would happen even before He created). Everything in the universe depends on Him and He needs nothing from it.

Angels, Jinn and Man are completely different creations of God, the creation of the universe is similiar to what most people believe. The story of Adam is there, but his sin did not create any Original sin. Many of the Biblical stories including those of Noah and Moses are there. Basically if the word of "submission to God" (Islam) was dying, causing chaos, God would send a Prophet to set things right.

Some time after Jesus returns to earth (and dies), an angel will kill then resurrect all life. Judgement by God will be passed on each man (and Jinn). Some will go to Heaven, some to Hell but while in Hell they can be later forgiven and put in Heaven. Heaven has many levels depending on how good you were in life.

Bit long, sorry.

I was raised catholic but as I grew up and started to learn more about other beliefs I started to question what I was taught. Come to find out I was taught the wrong things about Jesus. I don't try to label my self as a Christian or Muslim even though many aspect of both of theses religions fit into what I believe so in a way I am both. I believe in GOD and his messengers/prophets. He sends theses messengers down to earth to try to help humans increase there spirituality. But it seems that men take the story of prophets like Mohammed and Jesus and twist them around for their own purposes.

I don't believe that Jesus was the "Son of God" in the way that most people believe it. We are all children of God. Jesus even says this him self numerous times in the Bible and tells people to worship God because God created him. Here are a couple of examples:

Luke 17: 20 -21
Now when he was asked by the Pharisees when the kingdom of GOD will come, He answered them and said, "The Kingdom of GOD does not come with observation; nor will they say, 'See here!' or 'See there!' For indeed, the kingdom of GOD is within you"

Mathew 4:5-7
Then the devil took him up into the holy city, set Him on the pinnacle of the temple, sand said to Him, �If you are the Son of God, throw your self down For it is written:

�He shall give his angles charge over you� and, �In their hands they shall bear you up Lest you dash your foot against a stone.�

Jesus said to him, �It is written again, �You shall not tempt the Lord your God�

Mathew 4:10
Then Jesus said to him, �Away with you, Satan! For it is written, �You shall worship the Lord your God, and Him only you shall serve.�

Mark 2:10
But that you may know that the Son of Man has the power on earth to forgive sin

Matthew 5:45
That you may be sons of your father in Heaven; for he makes his sun rise on the evil and sends rain on the unjust.

Mathew 5:9
Blessed are the peacemakers, For they shall be called sons of God
Mathew 23:9-10
Do not call anyone on earth your father; for one is your father, he who is in heaven. And do not be called teachers; for one is your teacher, the Christ.

Matthew 26:39
He went a little farther and fell on his face, and prayed, saying, �oh my Father, if it is possible, let this cup pass from Me; nevertheless, not as I will, but as you will�

Matthew 10:40-41
He who receives you receives me, and he who receives me receives the one who sent me. Anyone who receives a prophet because he is a prophet will receive a prophet's reward, and anyone who receives a righteous man because he is a righteous man will receive a righteous man's reward.

-Mark 10:18
So Jesus said to him, Why do you call me good? No one is good but One, that is God.

- John 8:28
Then Jesus said to them, when you lift up the son of man, then you will know that I am He, and that I do nothing of Myself; but as My father taught Me, I speak these things.

John 5:37
And the father himself, who sent me, has testified of Me. You have neither heard his voice at any time, no seen his form.

Matthew 7:21
not everyone who says to me, Lord Shall enter the kingdom of heaven, but he who does the will of my Father in heaven. Many will say to me in that day, lord, lord have we not prophesied in your name, cast out demons in your name, and done many wonders in Your name? And then I will declare to them, I never knew you; depart from Me, you who practice lawlessness

John 6:38
For I have come down from heaven, not to do My own will, but the will of him who sent me

John 7:16
Jesus answered them and said, My doctrine is not mine, but his who sent me

John 13:16
Most assuredly, I say to you, a servant is not greater than his master; nor is he who was sent greater than he who sent him. If you know theses things, blesses are you if you do them

Matthew 13:57
so they were offended at him. But Jesus said to them, A prophet is not without honor except in his own country and in his own house
- John 14:28
You have heard me say to you, I am going away and coming back to you If you loved Me, you would rejoice because I said, I am going to the Father, For My Father is Greater than I

Originally posted by Ryanp5555
1. How can you say Jesus Christ was not the savior when he is a prophet in the Koran... yet he said himself that he was the son of god. I mean you have to believe he existed to be muslim, but beyond that, you guys recoginze that he is some sort of prophet.

I'm not Moslem... I'm Wiccan. However --

Jesus never actually says "Hey, dude! I'm the Son Of God!" He's quite coy about it ("Who is it that you say I am?" and so forth.)

To me this says that the people of Islam, during Jesus' time, saw that Jesus was indeed the savior, but were stubborn and feared that it would mean they were wrong all along.

The people of Islam were not Muslims at the time. They were a nomadic folk, never got into the areas of Israel/Palestine, and they were pantheistic. It was Mohammad who proclaimed Jesus a prophet in the 600's.

Maybe that is just my view point, but anyways.... if jesus wasn't the savior then where is his body?

Uh... better not use that argument. I could also ask you, "where is the body of Socrates?" or "where is the body of Plato?" and you couldn't come up with an answer. Nobody knows.

A good review of the basics of Islam can be found at www.religioustolerance.org -- a wonderful website with good resources on all religions.

How convenient...muslims believe everything in the New Testament EXCEPT the parts that would render Mr. Muhammed null and void.
You believe yeshua was a man, yet you don't believe he died? Please explain how yeshua got to heaven.

There were disagreements whether he was born of a virgin; which you accept without evidence. The earliest of christians argued about this. How can muslims be sure that the part about the virgin birth and the sinless life wasn't corrupted as well. Where are you sources for such information outside of the "corrupted" bible? You must use another source besides the bible because you have stated that source isn't reliable.

Muslims have made a variety salad out of the bible. Muslims take only the pieces that support muhammed. Then, they discard everything else as a "tossed" salad.

Mithras, has once again shown the ridiculous concept of hell that Islam has. Everyone is getting out of hell if the people in heaven will it...So what is the point of becoming of a part of islam. If you have a get out of hell free card then forget it...don't convert and you'll still be saved (yeah right). This proves that your own religion is absolutely pointless.
Muhammed wasn't even sure of his own salvation. Which totally contradicts the logic of this. If everyone is getting out of hell then he could have been 100% sure of his salvation. Was muhammed saved?
Islam supports 25 named messengers in the Qu'ran. Yet, not a one of these messengers had a message that was anything like Muhammeds. Buddha didn't even teach god. Muslims teach buddha's, jesus', krishnas' and everybody elses messages were corrupted. Everyone but muhammed.

Its the same old song to a different tune. Our prophet is the only one. Our book is the only one. Everyone else is wrong. That sums up this religion along with the rest of them. It is nothing more than pure selfishness.


[edit on 25-6-2004 by KSoze]

[edit on 25-6-2004 by KSoze]

Originally posted by Byrd

Jesus never actually says "Hey, dude! I'm the Son Of God!" He's quite coy about it ("Who is it that you say I am?" and so forth.)

true, he doesnt say "I'm the Son of God", but he does tell the high priest that he(the high priest) is correct when asking if Jesus is the Son of God.

Matthew 26:63-64a But Jesus remained silent. The high priest said to him, I charge you under oath be the living God: Tell us if you are the Christ(Messiah), the Son of God." 64"Yes, it is how you say," Jesus replied...

---pineapple

Originally posted by KSoze


Its the same old song to a different tune. Our prophet is the only one. Our book is the only one. Everyone else is wrong. That sums up this religion along with the rest of them. It is nothing more than pure selfishness.


[edit on 25-6-2004 by KSoze]

[edit on 25-6-2004 by KSoze]

Ehhh.... I'm getting really tired of debunking the same thing over and over again. I need a new chalenge!!

I quote the Holy Qur'an... AGAIN:

[2:136] Say, "We believe in GOD, and in what was sent down to us, and in what was sent down to Abraham, Ismail, Isaac, Jacob, and the Patriarchs; and in what was given to Moses and Jesus, and all the prophets from their Lord. We make no distinction among any of them. To Him alone we are submitters."


[2:62] Surely, those who believe, those who are Jewish, the Christians, and the converts; anyone who believes in GOD, and believes in the Last Day, and leads a righteous life, will receive their recompense from their Lord. They have nothing to fear, nor will they grieve.

You have not debunked anything. Yobel told me he would set me straight because I believe the Quran is a bull# pointless book. He has not. You can not because your book is not what it says it is. The poster above is correct, Islam takes certain parts of a book (Bible) which is supposedly corrupted. If it is corrupted you should not take any part of the book. More nonsense that connot be logically debated because it makes no sense to someone who is willing to question it. You were born with logic, reason, and hopefully common sense, why don't you use it and quit believing in made up fairy tales and myths.

The skeptics annotated Bible rips the Quran and the Bible and shows the stupidity involved in both books. The Bible is a copy of sumerian cuneform tablets and the Quran is a copy of the Bible and so forth.

[edit on 25-6-2004 by wooten123]

Originally posted by KSoze
Where are you sources for such information outside of the "corrupted" bible? You must use another source besides the bible because you have stated that source isn't reliable.

The Qur'an is the reliable source. Before spouting nonsense, learn about the religions: you clearly haven't since you've actually made that statement. It really does amaze me, to the point of laughter, how some people can't even grasp the simplest concepts.

Mithras, has once again shown the ridiculous concept of hell that Islam has. Everyone is getting out of hell if the people in heaven will it...So what is the point of becoming of a part of islam. If you have a get out of hell free card then forget it...don't convert and you'll still be saved (yeah right). This proves that your own religion is absolutely pointless.

Thanks for that . You've either misread or it was beyond your brain's capacity to understand.

Muhammed wasn't even sure of his own salvation. Which totally contradicts the logic of this. If everyone is getting out of hell then he could have been 100% sure of his salvation. Was muhammed saved?

Salvation! saved! Good arguments! If I must spell it out, "but while in Hell they can be later forgiven." This doesn't mean they will be forgiven.

Islam supports 25 named messengers in the Qu'ran. Yet, not a one of these messengers had a message that was anything like Muhammeds. Buddha didn't even teach god. Muslims teach buddha's, jesus', krishnas' and everybody elses messages were corrupted. Everyone but muhammed.

I don't know how Buddha or Krishna crept in, you must be confused. You can choose to believe in Muhammad how you wish, no-one is stopping you thinking by yourself. Someone asked for a Muslim's views and I gave them, so obviously you had to jump in because you got offended.

-KSoze

I'm sorry to hear that Islam is'nt making much sense to you. hmm perhaps I did a poor job of introducing it. Can you do me a big favor? Can you read this one page article on Islam. It is by far the best introduction to Islam ...that I have encountered on the internet....I will promise you that it will answer many ( if not all) of your questions.

here is the link:

www.salaam.co.uk...





Peace
River

There is a difference about Jesus' body and Socrates body. Finding Jesus' body would prove this religion wrong, and they should know relatively where it is. The claim of the Shroud of Turin is, again, a point in which one can again show that Jesus did rise from the dead. Did you guys ever think that Muhammod was the Anti-Christ? Think about it. He has gathered over 1,000,000,000 followers in the world right now. He claimed to be the salvation, and was also quite violent. Maybe how we interprut the book of revalations is completely wrong. Here is some food for thought, why are things starting to happen as they can be interpretted in the book of revalations. All im saying is that if people just disappear, REPENT! Please repent.

yES, mOHAMMED (whoops caps lock) was violent, but that doesnt make him the anti christ whatsoever.he's just a good example of "Do as I say, not as I do."

Originally posted by Ryanp5555
All im saying is that if people just disappear, REPENT! Please repent.

repent what?

Originally posted by Ryanp5555
There is a difference about Jesus' body and Socrates body. Finding Jesus' body would prove this religion wrong, and they should know relatively where it is. The claim of the Shroud of Turin is, again, a point in which one can again show that Jesus did rise from the dead. Did you guys ever think that Muhammod was the Anti-Christ? Think about it. He has gathered over 1,000,000,000 followers in the world right now. He claimed to be the salvation, and was also quite violent. Maybe how we interprut the book of revalations is completely wrong. Here is some food for thought, why are things starting to happen as they can be interpretted in the book of revalations. All im saying is that if people just disappear, REPENT! Please repent.

You first say that finding Jesus' body would be a proof. Okay, if it was found then that "might" be a proof of something if the common interpretation of the Qur'an was how it was originally meant, but I really think it will be a hard time to recognise him even if he was mummified; I mean most of the West think he was a white anglo-saxon (guess why they do that!). Then you talk about a piece of cloth with dubious origin as a proof, did they find any trace of DNA on it? No they found some red paint that was supposed to be Jesus' blood staining the cloth. We will find his body, it'll be alive and well.

Muhammad as the Anti-Christ? You're obviously a man who has thought long and hard to come up with this so I'll kindly answer:
The word is so vague that it can mean pretty much anything. Take the exciting and popular version in Revelations where he is or teams up with the Beast to attack Israel and ultimately gets defeated by Jesus. Now see how Muhammad fits into the picture, no Beast yet, no Second Coming done, no great war and Muhammad isn't alive today. There, I'll let you finish that off.

Here's another definition actually in your Bible. Christians can (1John2:22) see the anti-christ as anyone (Jews, Muslims) who even preaches other than their own idea of Jesus; gives a good excuse for the Crusades eh! Talk about preaching aggression and hate.

You sounded so reasonable until you shout "repent," what's next, "where's tha salvation!?" These don't mean anything to you or me.



[edit on 26-6-2004 by mithras]

Originally posted by Ryanp5555


REPENT! Please repent.

Repent for what? For believing in the historical Jesus Christ (pbuh)? What's wrong with that?


Jesus Christ said, "Not everyone who says to me, 'Lord, Lord' will enter the kingdom of Allah, but only the one who does the will of my Father who is in heaven. On that day many will say to me, 'Lord, Lord, did we not prophesy in your name, and cast out demons in your name, and do many mighty works in your name?' And then will I declare to them, 'I never knew you; depart from me, you workers of iniquity ("anomian" anomian literally "lawlessness").'" Matthew 7:21-23




----River

Why did Jesus not write anything himself or, if he couldn't write, dictate what to be written to ensure that his teachings would be accurately portratyed to the world? For, if he is the savior of the world then surely he would make sure that the exact method of salvation is shared with all the world. Why is it that nothing is written by him or even of him until well over half a century after his death? And if he himself did not write down and preserve his teachings, how do we know for a fact that what is written in the few random books that the organzied church decided were the true world of god is a true and accurate portrayal of Jesus' life and words?

As allready known, the Islamic religion was created 600-700 years after Jesus Christ was born.
This means the bible was allready in its final stage, when someone ripped some parts out and turned it into his own version.
This is not an opinion, this is plain history.

Besides this, believing in Jesus' miracles, but discarting his lessons about God, the Trinity and Himself, seems like a weird form of selective reading to me.

Oh and Christianity was not based on another religion or set of ideas such as Mithraism and paganism. That lie has been debunked a couple of times allready.

Originally posted by Jakko
Oh and Christianity was not based on another religion or set of ideas such as Mithraism and paganism. That lie has been debunked a couple of times allready.

I thought Christianity was based on the Jewish religion? Afterall, wasn't Jesus to have been the messiah that fulfilled Jewish prophecy? If so, the Christianity is based on another religion right?

Yes, correct.
Jewish people and Christians agree to believe in the same God, only Christians think Jesus was the messiah, and Jewish people think the messiah is still to come.
But my statement was more about "ancient" religions and stories that share some ideas with Christianity. Some people use this as a reason to claim Christianity borrowed/stole its ideas from older religions.
This is what's been debunked and what's untrue.

Originally posted by Ryanp5555
To me this says that the people of Islam, during Jesus' time, saw that Jesus was indeed the savior, but were stubborn and feared that it would mean they were wrong all along. Maybe that is just my view point, but anyways.... if jesus wasn't the savior then where is his body?

There was no Islam when Christ was alive. There was no Islam for another 600 years.

Originally posted by Valhall

Originally posted by Ryanp5555
To me this says that the people of Islam, during Jesus' time, saw that Jesus was indeed the savior, but were stubborn and feared that it would mean they were wrong all along. Maybe that is just my view point, but anyways.... if jesus wasn't the savior then where is his body?

There was no Islam when Christ was alive. There was no Islam for another 600 years.

Islam is not a new Religion. Prophet Muhammad( pbuh) was not the founder of Islam. He was in fact the Last Messenger of Islam. The word "Islam" is derived from the hebrew root " Shalom" (peace) and the aramaic "Shalem" (completion/perfection as in a Message). The full definition of Islam reflects all of these underlying meanings and can be translated " Submission to the Will of G-d in perfect harmony and accordance with the Laws of Nature". In short "Islam" is "Equilibrium". It is the balanced Din ( Way of Life). It is the Animus and the Equus. Islam is the very message that Jesus Christ (pbuh) taught . Jesus Christ taught and practiced the Religion of Ha'Shlama ( translation: Islam) and Prophet John the Baptist was an Islamic martyr.

According to the Qur'an , the Prophet Abraham(pbuh) was the first man to coin the term " Muslims" and he stated that his companions and descendents are Muslims. Similarly subseqent Prophets also used the term " Muslim" as a way of identifying themselves.

Jesus Christ referred to his disciples as "The Mushlam" and he urged others to emulate:

Jesus Christ (pbuh) using the word "Muslim" in Luke 6:40

Ein talmeed na'leh 'al rabbo; shekken kal adam she'MUSHLAM yihyeh k'rabbo


Translation in English: "No student can be above his teacher, but everyone that is a MUSLIM, can be as his teacher."



----River

P.S: The Dead Sea Scrolls of Qumran also confirm that the righteous are known as the community that SUBMITS [ to perform Islam]