It looks like you're using an Ad Blocker.
Please white-list or disable AboveTopSecret.com in your ad-blocking tool.
Some features of ATS will be disabled while you continue to use an ad-blocker.
Originally posted by DeusEx
..seems lost on almost everyone these days. I log on, and anything involving the world 'terrorist' has about a dozen or so peopel crying out for blood of any and everyone labeled as such, justly or not.
It's absolutely shocking, all things considered. People I thought I knew have errupted into hate speech and generalization of aggression. Turns my stomach, sometimes.
Firstly, we have the word 'terrorist'. You slap that label on anything, it becomes an immediate target. The rage is...incomprehensible. Sure, real terrorists have doen awful things. I won't deny that.
But, the word is beign thrown around too casually. Any insurgent who fights because America or one of its allies is shelling it to the ground or occupyign said land is automatically branded as such.
I'm not saying they're right, but try to look at it from their point of view. How would you feel with foreign troops in your street, your hospitals piling up with countrymen dead at their hands?
Secondly, there seems to be a huge outbreak of blatantly anti-muslim sentiment. I'm wondering why.
Terrorists are the minority. generally, many muslims feel kinship with their fellow adherents, jsut like christians do. They object as much as christians do when radicals attack others, but outside of that what can they do?
"oh, rise up and object!" yeah, look at your history. millions upon millions have died in trivial wars doing exactly that in Christian history.
So don't be all biased for something you would be hesistant to do yourself. Don't forget, many of these people live in places where doing that would be, uhh, yeah, a death sentence, remember?
Radical minorities are jsut that- jsut because someone whats you out of their country or hates America, it doesn't make them a psychopathic killer just waiting to whip out his suicide bomb kit.
Thirdly, the ignorance of the basic concept of socialization absolutely twists me out of shape. Iraq has been a battlegroudn for a good forty years, and you expect the population to adhere to our standards of peaceability? These people have been saturated with violence since they were born. You can't expect that not to have any effect whatsoever. The absolute unwillingness to even attempt to look at it from the average Iraqi's view is staggering.
So, here I am. I'm challenging everyone who reads it to have a serious try at imagining what an average Iraqi is like. What their days are like, their lives, living conditions, feelings and meals are like. Terrorism is a symptom of a problem, not the problem itself. No amount of violence will every change that or make it go away. In fact, it's one fo the worst things one can do.
Originally posted by DeusEx
So, here I am. I'm challenging everyone who reads it to have a serious try at imagining what an average Iraqi is like. What their days are like, their lives, living conditions, feelings and meals are like.
Originally posted by Eastern_Diamondback
Anyone seeking my death or that of my good countrymen in concept or in specific deserves death, not my love, compassion, or understanding. It is non-negotiable.
Hate speech...terminology of the sanctimonius. I HATE anyone seeking my death or that of my good countrymen. I lust for their blood. Should they choose to end their aims of my death or that of my countrymen, then my hatred for them would too cease. It seems symptomatic of far too many Canadian, and too many loony Americans occupying too many powerful institutions, that anything not in line with their utopia, as well as the demonization of true demons, is hate speech.
By whom, may I ask? I mostly hear them called insurgents or militant. The average Iraqi who disagrees with American occupation are typically non-combatants. The ones taking up arms, for the most part, are either sectarian religious militia leaders (Muqtada al-Sadr) who have been bashed by fellow citizens,or foreigners themselves (Abu Musab al-Zarqawi, a Jordanian)
Well, let me try to picture myself back 225 years ago in the United States watching Frenchmen kill a "fellow countryman," who was fighting for the British. If the hospitals were filling up with Tories, I'd be pretty appreciative. Seeing as you're from Toryland, I can't imagine you understanding that.
If you're a freethinking and logical, and not clouded with religious i.e. non-rational idealogy like self-hatred, being anti-white, anti-western, ethnophobic and xenocentric, thinking that love does conquer all, violence solves nothing, and generally rooting for the underdog regardless of their immoral cause, then you would understand why there is lots to not like about Islam.
The word minority is too vague. Minority simply mean less than half. Surely you would agree that if 49.9999999% of the Moslem population supported terrorism the world would be in deep s%^&. What would be an acceptable level, a tolerance level, for terrorists? Should we accept 25%? 10%? 5%? I don't know about you, but these levels are unacceptably high. I sure would want my government to say "Hey citizen of America, 50,000 Moslems emigrated to this country this past year, but fear not, they're peaceful people. Only 5% of them support and/or engage in terrorism." I don't find the prospect of 2500 terrorists in my country as particularly appealing. As for Canada, you guys have pretty much resigned yourself to such a mindset. I wouldn't care so much except for the fact that we share a 4000 mile undefended border. Well, that's not true; I'd hate to see the True North, strong and free open itself out of existence.
And the end result was the people fighting for their conviction got to live as they desired ie the Protestant Reformation.
Governments killing their citizen for speaking out against terrorism...hmmm.
Then that means the problem is more than just a "minority of terrorist" in the Moslem world, it goes right to the heart of the society.
Moslem agitation toward the West, and the United States goes much farther back than just the 1990's, or 1948, or 1453, or 1071. It began in 711 in Iberia, and in around 635 in the Byzantine Empire's Syria, Palestine, Egypt and Cyrenaica. Moslems began their hostile actions against the United States soon after the nation became independent, with Barbary pirates harrassing and kidnapping American sailors. The US finally garnered the balls to invade the nation of the Tripolitans (Libya) and destroy the troublemakers there. Within ten years, it would only take the presence of American warship to encourage the Algerians to cease their hostile actions against the US and sign peace treaties. President James Madison stated "that as peace is better than war, war is better than tribute."
I can't imagine too many people expecting peace there as we are used to it. Too much of our society is pacified, having gone too far in the opposite direction, and is seemingly unwilling to fight for anything even when of importance.
But the situation in Iraq cannot be described as peaceful by anyone's understanding of the word.
No, Terrorism is the problem. The truth is it isn't usually poor, deprived, alienated or "disenfranchized" people who are the terrorists. They are usually the organized, educated, and fairly well-to-do, self-aggrandizing Moslems both in the Middle East and in Europe and North America who commit much of the terrorism against the West.
So, most of the world deserves death? Americans are not terribly well liked due to their bomb-first-don't-ask-questions policies. I don't ask you to love them, but I do ask you to try to understand their point of view. The why is more important than the what.
Sanctimonius, perhaps. But you cannot deny that your rage is misdirected at times. And may I note that not all of your good countrymen are good. The question shoudl be what started these aims? Why are they so angry? The problem is that ALL muslims -even your 'good countrymen'- are being painted with the same brush.
You can't deny that insurgency and terrorism are being used interchangably. Anyoen who objects to American bullying or occupation is branded a traitor or potential sympathizer themselves. The media often portays them as one and the same, without asking the why of the situation.
Oh, I can appreciate that. Liberation is one thing. Now, imagine the French stayed, walking your streets, abusing citizens and sending YOUR people to the hospitals. That seems more of a parallel to the situation.
And, good sir, as a Canadian my view of the situation is a little less...biased.
See, now we're getting out of hand. I merely see both sides of the issue. I am not a believer in ANY major religion. I don't believe in love, but psychology and rationalizism will go much farther then retaliation ever will. The religion of Islam, jsut like Christianity, is flawed and aggressive. I don't condone their cause, I'm asking WHY they have their cause. painting several billion people with your own ethnocentric, xenophobic brush does little to help the situation.
I agree with you, actually. our border security is awful. We let in criminals of all kinds, and now we're paying for it. We have serious organized crime issues. however, for reasons (like the canadian military beign too pathetic and generally unwillign to bomb everything considered a threat) beyond our control, we have yet to suffer a serious terrorist incident in our country's history. The sole except would eb the PLQ crisis, of course. But that is internal issues...much liek teh American's, but much less severe.
No, it meant witch hunting, the Inqusition, and the ultimate loss of life on trivial issues. Look at the Hugenots, and other groups like that. The Crusades had Christian sects attacking each other more often than the Saracens.
Perhaps it merely starts at the top, and trickles down. The chaos in the region permits only the most brutal and corrupt to rule. Imams, just like medievil priests, not only rule the countries, but work up the masses with their own brand of Islam. One martyr, one rogue cleric can turn a nation from benevolence to aggression.
The past is the past, but let's play this game. In 711, Iberia was split four ways. We had the Visigoths, Ostrogoths, rememnants of the defunct Roman Empire, and various Germanic tribes warring over it. The muslim population was in a golden age with a population explosion, the finest literature and scientific knowledge in the world, and a need to regain their lost trading posts. In fact, Iberia was first colonized by the Phoenicians, who came from Turkey, Syria, and Palestine.
Let me ask you this- you're in the 8th century, you see a bunch of barbarians who can't read, are degrading technologically and killing each other fighting over resources they can barely use. Why wouldn't you grab the land for yourself?
As for the Byzantine empire, the muslim world was under pressure from Genghis Khan's horde. Geopolitically, there has only been so much space to go around.
Peace is something we know, but these people do not. All they know is how to fight. We are at opposite ends of the spectrum, adn the gaping space between is what we should be trying to understand.
One could say we have our bible-thumping gung ho Christians, can't we?
As for the richer muslims, I doubt they would give up what they have in order to blow themselves up in a bus. I will admit, the leaders generally fit this archetype. But without peons, where are they? Nowhere.
And neither do these people emerge from the womb, gun in hand. Instead of killing them all, I endorse what could be called preventitive medicine. Why do people become terrorists to begin with? These are other human beings, no matter hwo hard you try to demonize them. As such, if we can find the root cause fo the problem, we can remove it. Joe Terrorist doesn't do it for enjoyment, he doesn't do it because it pays well. They are motivated by convictions baed on personal experience. Perhaps trying to understand this would help the situation, since killign doesn't.
Originally posted by DeusEx
Iraq has been a battlegroudn for a good forty years, and you expect the population to adhere to our standards of peaceability? These people have been saturated with violence since they were born.