The Concept of Empathy

..seems lost on almost everyone these days. I log on, and anything involving the world 'terrorist' has about a dozen or so peopel crying out for blood of any and everyone labeled as such, justly or not. It's absolutely shocking, all things considered. People I thought I knew have errupted into hate speech and generalization of aggression. Turns my stomach, sometimes.

Firstly, we have the word 'terrorist'. You slap that label on anything, it becomes an immediate target. The rage is...incomprehensible. Sure, real terrorists have doen awful things. I won't deny that. But, the word is beign thrown around too casually. Any insurgent who fights because America or one of its allies is shelling it to the ground or occupyign said land is automatically branded as such. I'm not saying they're right, but try to look at it from their point of view. How would you feel with foreign troops in your street, your hospitals piling up with countrymen dead at their hands?

Secondly, there seems to be a huge outbreak of blatantly anti-muslim sentiment. I'm wondering why. Terrorists are the minority. generally, many muslims feel kinship with their fellow adherents, jsut like christians do. They object as much as christians do when radicals attack others, but outside of that what can they do? "oh, rise up and object!" yeah, look at your history. millions upon millions have died in trivial wars doing exactly that in Christian history. So don't be all biased for something you would be hesistant to do yourself. Don't forget, many of these people live in places where doing that would be, uhh, yeah, a death sentence, remember? Radical minorities are jsut that- jsut because someone whats you out of their country or hates America, it doesn't make them a psychopathic killer just waiting to whip out his suicide bomb kit.

Thirdly, the ignorance of the basic concept of socialization absolutely twists me out of shape. Iraq has been a battlegroudn for a good forty years, and you expect the population to adhere to our standards of peaceability? These people have been saturated with violence since they were born. You can't expect that not to have any effect whatsoever. The absolute unwillingness to even attempt to look at it from the average Iraqi's view is staggering.

So, here I am. I'm challenging everyone who reads it to have a serious try at imagining what an average Iraqi is like. What their days are like, their lives, living conditions, feelings and meals are like.

Terrorism is a symptom of a problem, not the problem itself. No amount of violence will every change that or make it go away. In fact, it's one fo the worst things one can do.

DE

Exactly. I understand what you are saying. Many here don't see and can't imagine what it is like in those Countries, which is why I say if people drop bombs on them, those people will be angry.

War on Terrorism is terrorism, not any specific religion or race. But, I believe it is the Media that is heavily indoctrinating the public, which is why those anti-muslim sentiments are expressed everywhere.

Anyway, thanks for pointing out your thoughts. I agree.

Originally posted by DeusEx
..seems lost on almost everyone these days. I log on, and anything involving the world 'terrorist' has about a dozen or so peopel crying out for blood of any and everyone labeled as such, justly or not.

Anyone seeking my death or that of my good countrymen in concept or in specific deserves death, not my love, compassion, or understanding. It is non-negotiable.

It's absolutely shocking, all things considered. People I thought I knew have errupted into hate speech and generalization of aggression. Turns my stomach, sometimes.

Hate speech...terminology of the sanctimonius. I HATE anyone seeking my death or that of my good countrymen. I lust for their blood. Should they choose to end their aims of my death or that of my countrymen, then my hatred for them would too cease. It seems symptomatic of far too many Canadian, and too many loony Americans occupying too many powerful institutions, that anything not in line with their utopia, as well as the demonization of true demons, is hate speech.

Firstly, we have the word 'terrorist'. You slap that label on anything, it becomes an immediate target. The rage is...incomprehensible. Sure, real terrorists have doen awful things. I won't deny that.

You also can't deny it and remain honest or intelligent.

But, the word is beign thrown around too casually. Any insurgent who fights because America or one of its allies is shelling it to the ground or occupyign said land is automatically branded as such.

By whom, may I ask? I mostly hear them called insurgents or militant. The average Iraqi who disagrees with American occupation are typically non-combatants. The ones taking up arms, for the most part, are either sectarian religious militia leaders (Muqtada al-Sadr) who have been bashed by fellow citizens,or foreigners themselves (Abu Musab al-Zarqawi, a Jordanian)

I'm not saying they're right, but try to look at it from their point of view. How would you feel with foreign troops in your street, your hospitals piling up with countrymen dead at their hands?

Well, let me try to picture myself back 225 years ago in the United States watching Frenchmen kill a "fellow countryman," who was fighting for the British. If the hospitals were filling up with Tories, I'd be pretty appreciative. Seeing as you're from Toryland, I can't imagine you understanding that.

Secondly, there seems to be a huge outbreak of blatantly anti-muslim sentiment. I'm wondering why.

If you're a freethinking and logical, and not clouded with religious i.e. non-rational idealogy like self-hatred, being anti-white, anti-western, ethnophobic and xenocentric, thinking that love does conquer all, violence solves nothing, and generally rooting for the underdog regardless of their immoral cause, then you would understand why there is lots to not like about Islam.

Terrorists are the minority. generally, many muslims feel kinship with their fellow adherents, jsut like christians do. They object as much as christians do when radicals attack others, but outside of that what can they do?

The word minority is too vague. Minority simply mean less than half. Surely you would agree that if 49.9999999% of the Moslem population supported terrorism the world would be in deep s%^&. What would be an acceptable level, a tolerance level, for terrorists? Should we accept 25%? 10%? 5%? I don't know about you, but these levels are unacceptably high. I sure would want my government to say "Hey citizen of America, 50,000 Moslems emigrated to this country this past year, but fear not, they're peaceful people. Only 5% of them support and/or engage in terrorism." I don't find the prospect of 2500 terrorists in my country as particularly appealing. As for Canada, you guys have pretty much resigned yourself to such a mindset. I wouldn't care so much except for the fact that we share a 4000 mile undefended border. Well, that's not true; I'd hate to see the True North, strong and free open itself out of existence.

"oh, rise up and object!" yeah, look at your history. millions upon millions have died in trivial wars doing exactly that in Christian history.

And the end result was the people fighting for their conviction got to live as they desired ie the Protestant Reformation.

So don't be all biased for something you would be hesistant to do yourself. Don't forget, many of these people live in places where doing that would be, uhh, yeah, a death sentence, remember?

Governments killing their citizen for speaking out against terrorism...hmmm.
Then that means the problem is more than just a "minority of terrorist" in the Moslem world, it goes right to the heart of the society.

Radical minorities are jsut that- jsut because someone whats you out of their country or hates America, it doesn't make them a psychopathic killer just waiting to whip out his suicide bomb kit.

Moslem agitation toward the West, and the United States goes much farther back than just the 1990's, or 1948, or 1453, or 1071. It began in 711 in Iberia, and in around 635 in the Byzantine Empire's Syria, Palestine, Egypt and Cyrenaica. Moslems began their hostile actions against the United States soon after the nation became independent, with Barbary pirates harrassing and kidnapping American sailors. The US finally garnered the balls to invade the nation of the Tripolitans (Libya) and destroy the troublemakers there. Within ten years, it would only take the presence of American warship to encourage the Algerians to cease their hostile actions against the US and sign peace treaties. President James Madison stated "that as peace is better than war, war is better than tribute."

Thirdly, the ignorance of the basic concept of socialization absolutely twists me out of shape. Iraq has been a battlegroudn for a good forty years, and you expect the population to adhere to our standards of peaceability? These people have been saturated with violence since they were born. You can't expect that not to have any effect whatsoever. The absolute unwillingness to even attempt to look at it from the average Iraqi's view is staggering.

I can't imagine too many people expecting peace there as we are used to it. Too much of our society is pacified, having gone too far in the opposite direction, and is seemingly unwilling to fight for anything even when of importance.

But the situation in Iraq cannot be described as peaceful by anyone's understanding of the word.

So, here I am. I'm challenging everyone who reads it to have a serious try at imagining what an average Iraqi is like. What their days are like, their lives, living conditions, feelings and meals are like. Terrorism is a symptom of a problem, not the problem itself. No amount of violence will every change that or make it go away. In fact, it's one fo the worst things one can do.

No, Terrorism is the problem. The truth is it isn't usually poor, deprived, alienated or "disenfranchized" people who are the terrorists. They are usually the organized, educated, and fairly well-to-do, self-aggrandizing Moslems both in the Middle East and in Europe and North America who commit much of the terrorism against the West.

[edit on 25-6-2004 by Eastern_Diamondback]

[edit on 25-6-2004 by Eastern_Diamondback]

[edit on 25-6-2004 by Eastern_Diamondback]

Originally posted by DeusEx
So, here I am. I'm challenging everyone who reads it to have a serious try at imagining what an average Iraqi is like. What their days are like, their lives, living conditions, feelings and meals are like.

Recently I had a former Army Ranger come back from Iraq and give a lecture in my American Government class.

He parachuted in Northern Iraq and ended up in Kirkuk for the occupation. He lectured at length as to how many Iraqis are only beginning to understand the idea of a free market system, and the reason some are fighting is that they are left out in the rain and miss the days of state run economies where they were paid and had a stable living. His view on the insurgency was that if we make Iraq something for Iraqis to invest in then people will stop making the country a mess. I asked him a question as to whether or not foreign fighters were streaming in from Syria ( Im very outspoken here on my criticism of Syria) and he was quick to point out the majority of fighters were Iraqi's although from a different area as people dont like to make a mess in their own backyard.

Another interesting story is the man was tapped to run the chamber of commerce although he had no previous experience and had studied engineering in college. It was an eye opening lecture and it changed/reaffirmed my view on the war. The man wasnt against the war and said he believed we are improving things, but he also was quick to point out that it wont be an overnight change.

So I do understand that everday is a struggle for some Iraqi's and its a drastic change from a state run society to a more Westernized form of rule. However I do believe that things will improve with time and international support.

Originally posted by Eastern_Diamondback

Anyone seeking my death or that of my good countrymen in concept or in specific deserves death, not my love, compassion, or understanding. It is non-negotiable.

So, most of the world deserves death? Americans are not terribly well liked due to their bomb-first-don't-ask-questions policies. I don't ask you to love them, but I do ask you to try to understand their point of view. The why is more important than the what.

Hate speech...terminology of the sanctimonius. I HATE anyone seeking my death or that of my good countrymen. I lust for their blood. Should they choose to end their aims of my death or that of my countrymen, then my hatred for them would too cease. It seems symptomatic of far too many Canadian, and too many loony Americans occupying too many powerful institutions, that anything not in line with their utopia, as well as the demonization of true demons, is hate speech.

Sanctimonius, perhaps. But you cannot deny that your rage is misdirected at times. And may I note that not all of your good countrymen are good. The question shoudl be what started these aims? Why are they so angry? The problem is that ALL muslims -even your 'good countrymen'- are being painted with the same brush.

By whom, may I ask? I mostly hear them called insurgents or militant. The average Iraqi who disagrees with American occupation are typically non-combatants. The ones taking up arms, for the most part, are either sectarian religious militia leaders (Muqtada al-Sadr) who have been bashed by fellow citizens,or foreigners themselves (Abu Musab al-Zarqawi, a Jordanian)

You can't deny that insurgency and terrorism are being used interchangably. Anyoen who objects to American bullying or occupation is branded a traitor or potential sympathizer themselves. The media often portays them as one and the same, without asking the why of the situation.

Well, let me try to picture myself back 225 years ago in the United States watching Frenchmen kill a "fellow countryman," who was fighting for the British. If the hospitals were filling up with Tories, I'd be pretty appreciative. Seeing as you're from Toryland, I can't imagine you understanding that.

Oh, I can appreciate that. Liberation is one thing. Now, imagine the French stayed, walking your streets, abusing citizens and sending YOUR people to the hospitals. That seems more of a parallel to the situation. And, good sir, as a Canadian my view of the situation is a little less...biased.

If you're a freethinking and logical, and not clouded with religious i.e. non-rational idealogy like self-hatred, being anti-white, anti-western, ethnophobic and xenocentric, thinking that love does conquer all, violence solves nothing, and generally rooting for the underdog regardless of their immoral cause, then you would understand why there is lots to not like about Islam.

See, now we're getting out of hand. I merely see both sides of the issue. I am not a believer in ANY major religion. I don't believe in love, but psychology and rationalizism will go much farther then retaliation ever will. The religion of Islam, jsut like Christianity, is flawed and aggressive. I don't condone their cause, I'm asking WHY they have their cause. painting several billion people with your own ethnocentric, xenophobic brush does little to help the situation.

The word minority is too vague. Minority simply mean less than half. Surely you would agree that if 49.9999999% of the Moslem population supported terrorism the world would be in deep s%^&. What would be an acceptable level, a tolerance level, for terrorists? Should we accept 25%? 10%? 5%? I don't know about you, but these levels are unacceptably high. I sure would want my government to say "Hey citizen of America, 50,000 Moslems emigrated to this country this past year, but fear not, they're peaceful people. Only 5% of them support and/or engage in terrorism." I don't find the prospect of 2500 terrorists in my country as particularly appealing. As for Canada, you guys have pretty much resigned yourself to such a mindset. I wouldn't care so much except for the fact that we share a 4000 mile undefended border. Well, that's not true; I'd hate to see the True North, strong and free open itself out of existence.

I agree with you, actually. our border security is awful. We let in criminals of all kinds, and now we're paying for it. We have serious organized crime issues. however, for reasons (like the canadian military beign too pathetic and generally unwillign to bomb everything considered a threat) beyond our control, we have yet to suffer a serious terrorist incident in our country's history. The sole except would eb the PLQ crisis, of course. But that is internal issues...much liek teh American's, but much less severe.

And the end result was the people fighting for their conviction got to live as they desired ie the Protestant Reformation.

No, it meant witch hunting, the Inqusition, and the ultimate loss of life on trivial issues. Look at the Hugenots, and other groups like that. The Crusades had Christian sects attacking each other more often than the Saracens.

Governments killing their citizen for speaking out against terrorism...hmmm.
Then that means the problem is more than just a "minority of terrorist" in the Moslem world, it goes right to the heart of the society.

Perhaps it merely starts at the top, and trickles down. The chaos in the region permits only the most brutal and corrupt to rule. Imams, just like medievil priests, not only rule the countries, but work up the masses with their own brand of Islam. One martyr, one rogue cleric can turn a nation from benevolence to aggression.

Moslem agitation toward the West, and the United States goes much farther back than just the 1990's, or 1948, or 1453, or 1071. It began in 711 in Iberia, and in around 635 in the Byzantine Empire's Syria, Palestine, Egypt and Cyrenaica. Moslems began their hostile actions against the United States soon after the nation became independent, with Barbary pirates harrassing and kidnapping American sailors. The US finally garnered the balls to invade the nation of the Tripolitans (Libya) and destroy the troublemakers there. Within ten years, it would only take the presence of American warship to encourage the Algerians to cease their hostile actions against the US and sign peace treaties. President James Madison stated "that as peace is better than war, war is better than tribute."

The past is the past, but let's play this game. In 711, Iberia was split four ways. We had the Visigoths, Ostrogoths, rememnants of the defunct Roman Empire, and various Germanic tribes warring over it. The muslim population was in a golden age with a population explosion, the finest literature and scientific knowledge in the world, and a need to regain their lost trading posts. In fact, Iberia was first colonized by the Phoenicians, who came from Turkey, Syria, and Palestine. Let me ask you this- you're in the 8th century, you see a bunch of barbarians who can't read, are degrading technologically and killing each other fighting over resources they can barely use. Why wouldn't you grab the land for yourself?

As for the Byzantine empire, the muslim world was under pressure from Genghis Khan's horde. Geopolitically, there has only been so much space to go around.

I can't imagine too many people expecting peace there as we are used to it. Too much of our society is pacified, having gone too far in the opposite direction, and is seemingly unwilling to fight for anything even when of importance.

But the situation in Iraq cannot be described as peaceful by anyone's understanding of the word.

Peace is something we know, but these people do not. All they know is how to fight. We are at opposite ends of the spectrum, adn the gaping space between is what we should be trying to understand.

No, Terrorism is the problem. The truth is it isn't usually poor, deprived, alienated or "disenfranchized" people who are the terrorists. They are usually the organized, educated, and fairly well-to-do, self-aggrandizing Moslems both in the Middle East and in Europe and North America who commit much of the terrorism against the West.

One could say we have our bible-thumping gung ho Christians, can't we? As for the richer muslims, I doubt they would give up what they have in order to blow themselves up in a bus. I will admit, the leaders generally fit this archetype. But without peons, where are they? Nowhere. And neither do these people emerge from the womb, gun in hand. Instead of killing them all, I endorse what could be called preventitive medicine. Why do people become terrorists to begin with? These are other human beings, no matter hwo hard you try to demonize them. As such, if we can find the root cause fo the problem, we can remove it. Joe Terrorist doesn't do it for enjoyment, he doesn't do it because it pays well. They are motivated by convictions baed on personal experience. Perhaps trying to understand this would help the situation, since killign doesn't.

DE

gave you my way above vote for this month DE, great post, i see the same things you are seeing, too bad, we are the minority and not the majority.
to me the biggest problem is word "terrorism" and "al-qaeda", if you oppose you are a terrorist and if you are arab then you are al-qaeda. There is no longer any differentiation of what is really happening.

So, most of the world deserves death? Americans are not terribly well liked due to their bomb-first-don't-ask-questions policies. I don't ask you to love them, but I do ask you to try to understand their point of view. The why is more important than the what.

I have to throw a question back at you. Are you conceding that half the world thinks I deserve to die because I'm an American? If that's the case, then I want to see those 3 billion people impaled on stakes. Simple as that. Anyone who feels I deserve to die for being an American. I care nothing for convenient excuses why my death is justifiable in their eyes. What could someone say to you that would convince that your murder is ok? Hmm??? Seriously. What? What answer could that person give that would make you say "Gee, that's a really good reason. You know, I enjoyed life, but when you put it that way, OKAY! I have a machete in my garage that's pretty sharp, I think my head will come off pretty cleanly. I just hope I don't get your shoes too bloody." Do you realize the absurdity of what you are saying?

The other thing that skims over your head is judgment. I've gone one step further than you. I've taken notice of their explanations and justifications and come to a conclusion about Right and wrong, good and bad. It's what adults are supposed to do.

Sanctimonius, perhaps. But you cannot deny that your rage is misdirected at times. And may I note that not all of your good countrymen are good. The question shoudl be what started these aims? Why are they so angry? The problem is that ALL muslims -even your 'good countrymen'- are being painted with the same brush.

Misdirected? How many brain cells do you have left? I have no respect for Islam, but I don't feel that killing someone simply because I don't like them or their religion is justifiable. But the person who feels they have a duty to kill me for trespasses against his fake god deserves nothing less than death. I don't care if it's because I said "F$%* Allah" or because I have black shoelaces on my shoes.

You can't deny that insurgency and terrorism are being used interchangably. Anyoen who objects to American bullying or occupation is branded a traitor or potential sympathizer themselves. The media often portays them as one and the same, without asking the why of the situation.

We must be watching, listening, and reading different media, because on the national level, I rarely come across the term terrorism to describe what's taken place. But honestly, if you're having problems figuring out why some of these events are taking place, you have your head very deep up your ass.

Oh, I can appreciate that. Liberation is one thing. Now, imagine the French stayed, walking your streets, abusing citizens and sending YOUR people to the hospitals. That seems more of a parallel to the situation.

Unless the French were deliberately trying to kill non-combatants and non-hostile elements, I couldn't be too upset. If my "fellow countrymen" included Tories and other trying to subvert the people of my nation, I can't say I'd shed a tear.

And, good sir, as a Canadian my view of the situation is a little less...biased.

No, it just biased in a different manner. But regardless of bias, you need logic to think properly, and saying that we need to understand and have a dialogue with people who seek to kill because they can justify it through religion

See, now we're getting out of hand. I merely see both sides of the issue. I am not a believer in ANY major religion. I don't believe in love, but psychology and rationalizism will go much farther then retaliation ever will. The religion of Islam, jsut like Christianity, is flawed and aggressive. I don't condone their cause, I'm asking WHY they have their cause. painting several billion people with your own ethnocentric, xenophobic brush does little to help the situation.

There's nothing to negotiate. You don't get it. I'm not letting some guy kill me because I've offended his fake god or for any other reason. I don't know how old you are, I assume it's fairly young. But this phenomenon is not new. Terrorist capabilities have increased, but not their basic motivations; they were the same in 1979 and 1983 as they were in 2001 or today. I know it's hard to believe that someone could be so zealous that they'd be willing to die themselves to kill a couple enemies, but believe it. When I was a little younger, instead of a jackass strapping on 30 pounds of explosives to blowup a cafe a terrorist would grab an AK-47 and shoot into crowds of civilians until he ran out of ammo or was shot by police or bystanders. I've understood long ago.

I agree with you, actually. our border security is awful. We let in criminals of all kinds, and now we're paying for it. We have serious organized crime issues. however, for reasons (like the canadian military beign too pathetic and generally unwillign to bomb everything considered a threat) beyond our control, we have yet to suffer a serious terrorist incident in our country's history. The sole except would eb the PLQ crisis, of course. But that is internal issues...much liek teh American's, but much less severe.

But Canada is not a symbol of anything. Nobody thinks Canada and associates it with power, or the embodiment of the West. Your big brother down south attracts the attention. It's like if you lived in a run down, cockroach infested house, your next door neighbor lived in an elegant mansion, and then you bragged about how nobody has broken into your home to steal items you don't even have.

No, it meant witch hunting, the Inqusition, and the ultimate loss of life on trivial issues. Look at the Hugenots, and other groups like that. The Crusades had Christian sects attacking each other more often than the Saracens.

I'm not a Christian, so don't expect me to be an apologist for Christianity.

Perhaps it merely starts at the top, and trickles down. The chaos in the region permits only the most brutal and corrupt to rule. Imams, just like medievil priests, not only rule the countries, but work up the masses with their own brand of Islam. One martyr, one rogue cleric can turn a nation from benevolence to aggression.

Now this is called denial. If it was a matter of just one person, we wouldn't be having this discussion.

The past is the past, but let's play this game. In 711, Iberia was split four ways. We had the Visigoths, Ostrogoths, rememnants of the defunct Roman Empire, and various Germanic tribes warring over it. The muslim population was in a golden age with a population explosion, the finest literature and scientific knowledge in the world, and a need to regain their lost trading posts. In fact, Iberia was first colonized by the Phoenicians, who came from Turkey, Syria, and Palestine.

For starters, the Golden Age of Islam came later. Secondly, the Phoenicians came from Lebanon and established themselves as Mediterranean merchants. They would set up a colony near modern day Tunis. They expanded into Iberia in the first millennium BC, and were defeated and conquered by the Romans in the Punic Wars. At no time were the Phoenicians ever Moslems. They were pagans. The invading Moslem armies were Arab and Berbers, not typically Levantines.

Let me ask you this- you're in the 8th century, you see a bunch of barbarians who can't read, are degrading technologically and killing each other fighting over resources they can barely use. Why wouldn't you grab the land for yourself?

That's not how history went down. I know you'd like to draw a parallel to Iraq today, but they're not analogous. I was a little more crafty in devising my analogy. But nice try anyway. The Visigothic rulers were hardly barbarians. Learn some history, I mean what the hell are they teaching people in history classes these days?

As for the Byzantine empire, the muslim world was under pressure from Genghis Khan's horde. Geopolitically, there has only been so much space to go around.

You're 600 years in the wrong direction. The Moslem jihad against the Christian Byzantines began in the 630's, Genghis won't come onto the scene for almost 600 more years.

Peace is something we know, but these people do not. All they know is how to fight. We are at opposite ends of the spectrum, adn the gaping space between is what we should be trying to understand.

See, again, this is your problem. There is nothing to discuss anymore. This is not new. Plenty of documentation exists, stuff we've discovered, and stuff they've told us themselves. It bothers the hell out of me that the only murderers that are certified to be hated are the Nazis. There's nothing much to discuss about them, and there wasn't then. Hitler told us exactly what he thought.

One could say we have our bible-thumping gung ho Christians, can't we?

Let me know the next time you hear a southern baptist run into a crowd of moslems and blow them up.

As for the richer muslims, I doubt they would give up what they have in order to blow themselves up in a bus. I will admit, the leaders generally fit this archetype. But without peons, where are they? Nowhere.

The 9-11 Hijackers were quite well to do. They were college educated and were living well in the West for some time. The first female Hamas suicide bomber was the mother of a child, if I recall correctly. You are confusing the profiles of delinquents in the West with terrorists in the Islamic world.

And neither do these people emerge from the womb, gun in hand. Instead of killing them all, I endorse what could be called preventitive medicine. Why do people become terrorists to begin with? These are other human beings, no matter hwo hard you try to demonize them. As such, if we can find the root cause fo the problem, we can remove it. Joe Terrorist doesn't do it for enjoyment, he doesn't do it because it pays well. They are motivated by convictions baed on personal experience. Perhaps trying to understand this would help the situation, since killign doesn't.

The "root causes" all can be reduced back to islamic religion and culture. The "root causes" are self inflicted. Violence and primitiveness go to the very heart of Islam.

Necessary reading material

Originally posted by DeusEx
Iraq has been a battlegroudn for a good forty years, and you expect the population to adhere to our standards of peaceability? These people have been saturated with violence since they were born.

DE

This is sooo true! There will never be peace in that region of the world. never has been and never will. So why was Bush so willing to throw lives and money and the respect of this country in the world away on it? We need to find the answer to that one! I am saddened that so many soldiers have been killed...but I have no empathy for the Iraqis. They have helped to kill American soldiers so their hands are not clean! It is just too bad that Bush got us in there. We are never going to get out!!