Revelation; "A time, times, and half a time"

Originally posted by truthiron
A third of the trees have not been burned up nor has ALL the GREEN grass ever been burned up.

I certainly agree with you that the seven trumpets have not started yet. Please note, though, that by the same token the world has not yet experienced the power of Death, through the agency of swrod, famine, and pestilence, over "a fourth of the earth" (ch6 v8). This means, as I see it, that we haven't had the Four Horsemen yet, either.
My analysis is that three things must happen before we get the trumpets;
1) The persecution which God is avenging when he sends the Four Horsemen.
2) The Four Horsemen themselves.
3) The interval of "silence in heaven" between the Four Horsemen and the trumpets.

I find the abomination of desolation to be Satan standing in the place of Christ personating Him. That certainly will be a time to flee to the mountains!

I don't know if you've read my "the Beast and the Temple". I think my suggestion there is similar to that one.
I argued that the Abomination could be the Antichrist trying to compel the churches to recognise his claim.
This would induce the sense of being "cut off" from the true God, which I think is the essence of the idea of Desolation.

Wow, we really interpret differently yet we all claim the same Lord Jesus. If we lean on the same Holy Spirit for guidance and understanding what is it that makes us all see these things differently and what is the truth?

There are certain things I am certain of and there are things that I will admit to not knowing. These are the things I absolutely believe. The four horsemen are here, they've been here since Jesus was resurrected. The opening of that first seal is the beginning of the ministry of the Holy Spirit. Since the time it was first given, until everyone in the world has had a chance to hear the name of Jesus. That is the white horse at work. It is not destructive but saving, as he said not by might nor power but by my Spirit.

The same goes for the other horses. They are the spirits of heaven, they are here now. They've been since Jesus was resurrected, since the opening of that first seal. The horsemen are not destructive, they are saving. They are conquering, through the word, they judged righteously and did not fear death. You can see the spirit at work in those who were martyred for Christ.

Almost 2000 years since the time of Jesus, can't you see the spirits at work? Can't you see the trumpets that have also have gone off since that time. We have 2000 years of history to learn from, . History is going to repeat itself as shown in the 7 vials. This is the time of increased knowledge. We have a chance to learn from the past trumpets so that we don't have to live through the vials like our ancestors did the trumpets. Do me a favor and compare the first church to the first seal to the first trumpet to the first vial. Do the same for the rest. Please tell me if you start to see things differently.

The mark of the beast also, I used to think was just an end time event. It has been here all along. The ones who went along with the world during each church age, trumpet age are the ones who took the mark. However the trumpets were for only the third part of earth. The gospel was not yet extended to the entire world. Knowledge was not yet increased. So now is truly the last time because this time, the world is at its full. Iniquity is abound. The gospel has almost reached the entire world. Unlike the trumpets which were only for the third part of earth while the horsemen were at work, the vials will be poured out without any holding back. This time, the four winds shall be unleashed in succession with the vials on the entire earth. Please tell me if any thing of what I say does not agree with Revelations.

reply to post by iamnot

I've always been a studier of history.
When I look at Revelation, I see it as a historical narrative in which the events just happen to be in the future instead of the past. Obviously many of the events are described in symbolic ways, and they're not always in sequence. So I treat Revelation in just the same way as I would treat any other chronicle. I try to unravel the actual sequence of events underlying the narrative. I think the method justifes itself by producing an interpretation which is consistent and coherent.

As far as the Four Horsemen are concerned; I saw them as aspects of a single catastophe, sent with punitive intentions. I outlined my reasons for coming to that conclusion, a fairly straight-forward reading of the text, combined with taking note of the hints in the Old Testament allusions. If I've got a soundly-based interpretation that works, why would I change it? Perhaps you can show me what was wrong with the reasoning process of the two Four Horsemen threads.

I see the trumpets and the vials as the beginning and climax of the same process.

We can get away with having different views, because they're not points which are"essential to salvation", though when the events came it would be very helpful to understand what was going on. If there was a disagreement about, say, the resurrection of Christ, that would be different.

reply to post by DISRAELI


We have to ask ourselves if we're trying to bend prophecy to fit our situation. Obviously nobody wants to be on the wrong side of things but we have to be honest.

The 6th Philadelphian age is coming to a close. The Laodicean age is the seventh age, the seventh day, the sabbath day, the great tribulation. The day of the Lord that comes like a thief in the night. The resurrection of the witnesses starts off that day surprising everyone.

This view is a hard pill to swallow because we want to be numbered amongst those witnesses. We want to be protected from that great and dreadful day of the Lord. But in order to be protected from that day, we need to be part of that first resurrection. To make the resurrection, you have to die first. You have to face Death and not just any old death but a righteous one. Numbers 23:10.

Mark 10:38
"You don't know what you are asking," Jesus said. "Can you drink the cup I drink or be baptized with the baptism I am baptized with?"

It may happen but it is highly unlikely to die the death of a martyr whilst sitting here typing away trying to figure out Revelations. That zealous group of missionary Christians who actively seek to bring others to repentance and die trying are the ones who are truly witnessing. They're the ones truly Living.

This hard truth brings to fulfillment the saying,
Revelation 9:6
And in those days shall men seek death, and shall not find it; and shall desire to die, and death shall flee from them.

There remains a mystery of those who will not die but shall be changed in the twinkling of an eye but...

Revelation 20:6
Blessed and holy is he that hath part in the first resurrection: on such the second death hath no power, but they shall be priests of God and of Christ, and shall reign with him a thousand years.

God has mercy on those of us with dead works though for he says

Revelation 14: 13And I heard a voice from heaven saying unto me, Write, Blessed are the DEAD which die in the Lord from henceforth: Yea, saith the Spirit, that they may rest from their labours; and their works do follow them

Once the truth of the first resurrection is known and how close we are to the seventh and sabbath day of the Lord we are, it should only make us more encouraged to go out into the world.

Revelation 10: 9And I went unto the angel, and said unto him, Give me the little book. And he said unto me, Take it, and eat it up; and it shall make thy belly bitter, but it shall be in thy mouth sweet as honey.

10And I took the little book out of the angel's hand, and ate it up; and it was in my mouth sweet as honey: and as soon as I had eaten it, my belly was bitter.

11And he said unto me, Thou must prophesy again before many peoples, and nations, and tongues, and kings.


This is what John does in Revelation 10 before the two witnesses are given the power to prophesy for 1260 days in sackcloth. They are utterly repentant. A great sobering truth has been made known to them. They are prophesying the thunders that the angel cried out that John was about to write. The trumpets were a wake up call. The thunders are the day's of vengeance, the vials poured out.

Isaiah 13:9
Behold, the day of the LORD cometh, cruel both with wrath and fierce anger, to lay the land desolate: and he shall destroy the sinners thereof out of it.


Rev 10: 7But in the days of the voice of the seventh angel, when he shall begin to sound, the mystery of God should be finished, as he hath declared to his servants the prophets

There is a deadline here that the prophets were aware of. Literally, a 'dead' line. There was this drive to meet that deadline too, to be counted among the Living.

Originally posted by iamnot
We have to ask ourselves if we're trying to bend prophecy to fit our situation.

I've always thought that I was doing the exact opposite. I look at a description of a major catastophe. I say to myself "This event is obviously not in the past, because nothing like it has been seen. If it matches anything at all, it must be something in the future". To me, that is taking the text seriously. Whereas many interpreters make a practice of trivialising the events described in order to force them into their understanding of the pattern of the past. "There was a famine that happened here, and a war that happened there". To me, those are the ones who are trying to bend prophecy.

And the motive power is normally the obsession with the idea that the end-times must be close, and the prophecies must be fulfilled in our own lifetime. Therefore everybody is trying to bend prophecy to fit the contemporary situation. Whereas nothing in my own view of Revelation prevents us from having to wait another thousand or two thousand years. The only factor which might bring it closer is this new human capacity for self-destruction (which is where the word "deadline" has been brought into the text of my next thread). Apart from that, I take the attitude of "I'll expect it when I see it".

I know what you mean by trivial, a famine here a war there. But surely the last 2000 years have a place in Revelations. Papal rome, the Spanish inquisition, ww1 ww2, the holocaust, the creation of Islam, the creation of Israel. I find these events to be very catastrophic. I don't think you're giving enough credit to all those who died.

Hebrews 4
1Let us therefore fear, lest, a promise being left us of entering into his rest, any of you should seem to come short of it.

2For unto us was the gospel preached, as well as unto them: but the word preached did not profit them, not being mixed with faith in them that heard it.

3For we which have believed do enter into rest, as he said, As I have sworn in my wrath, if they shall enter into my rest: although the works were finished from the foundation of the world.

4For he spake in a certain place of the seventh day on this wise, And God did rest the seventh day from all his works.

5And in this place again, If they shall enter into my rest.

reply to post by iamnot

Revelation ch6 v8
"Death and Hades...were given power over a fourth of the earth, to kill with sword and with famine and with pestilence".
That's a fourth of the earth all in one go.
And you will see in "Four Horsemen-why?" my reasons for seeing this as God's response to a specific persecution.
So stretching it out over the events of 2000 years will not do.

reply to post by DISRAELI


It doesn't say all in one go, just that this Death character has the power over the 'fourth' part whereas the trumpets explain what happens to the 'third' part.

Numbers 23:10
Who can count the dust of Jacob or number the fourth part of Israel? Let me die the death of the righteous, and may my end be like theirs!"


The fourth part may also be the sacrifice and oblation of Daniel 9. The ones who have communion with the Lamb.
Exodus 29:40
And with the one lamb a tenth deal of flour mingled with the fourth part of an hin of beaten oil; and the fourth part of an hin of wine for a drink offering.


This explains the purpose of the trumpet judgements
Zechariah 13:9
And I will bring the third part through the fire, and will refine them as silver is refined, and will try them as gold is tried: they shall call on my name, and I will hear them: I will say, It is my people: and they shall say, The LORD is my God.


God has divided the people of the earth into four parts. Not in sequence but rather classification. Some people are like the older son and have remained faithfully with the father, some have gone prodigal and need to learn their lesson before returning.

reply to post by iamnot

It looks like "all in one go" to me. Horseman comes, that's an event. It's the most obvious, straightforward, way of reading it.

The whole campaign goes like this;
Pestilence comes first. That is a cause of death.
War comes next. That is a cause of death.
Famine comes next. That is a cause of death.
Why are none of these causes of death accompanied by "death"?
Because Death is following on close behind picking up all the corpses.
These things are not being dribbled out over the course of 2000 years.
These four "horses" are running together, just as you see them in the old prints.
What you see in ch6 is the description of a major catastrophe for the world which destroys a quarter of the world's population, in what may be no more than a few months.
And you want to water this down and trivialise it.
This chapter is a warning that is too important to be trivialised.

Matthew 16:11
How is it that ye do not understand that I spake it not to you concerning bread, that ye should beware of the leaven of the Pharisees and of the Sadducees

You should know that it's not always so straightforward. If bread isn't literally bread, than the fourth part may not literally be a quarter of the earth.

I've read many interpretations like yours about the horsemen but I find the general view to be 'trivial'. On a closer look the verse does not connote a destructive character.

Revelation 6:2
And I saw, and behold a white horse: and he that sat on him had a bow; and a crown was given unto him: and he went forth conquering, and to conquer

We're even given a second description about the rider of the white horse.

Revelation 19:11
And I saw heaven opened, and behold a white horse; and he that sat upon him was called Faithful and True, and in righteousness he doth judge and make war.

The trumpets are described as pestilences or plagues but not the horsemen. Yes I believe that the horses are running together also I just don't agree on your interpretation of what they truly are. The horsemen sound scary and destructive until you realize they are aspects of God himself. Even the pale horse, the one who has power to throw body and soul into hell. People think the black horse is about famine just because of the mention of wheat, barley, oil and wine. I can only refer again to the verse at the beginning of this post.

reply to post by iamnot

I can only refer once again to the detailed arguments about the purpose of the four horsemen which I set out in "4 Horsemen-Why?". They're sufficiently convincing as far I am concerned, and you haven't set about refuting them.
Briefly; consider why there are four horses in different colours, like those in Zechariah. That is telling us something, namely that the same thing is happening in both sets of cases.
Zechariah ch1; Four horses- reporting the reasons for God's wrath against the world.
Zechariah ch6 Four horses- expressing God's wrath against the world.
Revelation ch6 Four horses- expressing God's wrath against the world.
I can be confident that I'm decoding Revelation fairly accurately because I'm using the code-book which was deliberately provided for the purpose, viz. the Old Testament.
And my approach justifies itself by producing an interpretation which is systematic and coherent and self-consistent. I know where I'm heading with this. It will take more than a little playing with allegory to distract me.

As for the first horseman. he is not the same as the figure of the "Word" who appears later because they carry different weapons.
He is not something benign, because he is one of the four which have the purpose of carrying God's wrath against the world
The fact that he carries a bow identifies him as "plague" or "pestilence", for the reasons given in the thread I've already cited. That is how popular tradition always identified him. I believe popular tradition got it right.

Jesus spoke in parables and spoke concerning the things of heaven. That's not allegory, that's the truth. No one is trying to distract you, are you at a point where you believe you already know all there is to know?

The rider of the white horse can be the 'word' in the same sense that Jesus is the Father, the Son and the Holy Spirit. Yes they are carrying different weapons, the sword is the symbol for the word and the bow is the symbol for the covenant. Still all point to the same person.

I try to always back up my views scripture in the old testament too. In fact, I have been doing that. In Zechariah 1, I see mention of red horses, speckled and white. I associate these horses with the same red ones found in Revelation. The rider that was granted to take peace from the earth.

Matthew 10:34
Think not that I am come to send peace on earth: I came not to send peace, but a sword

There are no mention of all 4 horses in Zec 1, I do see them in Zec 6 however. I still cannot see how you associate them with the wrath of God.

In Zec 1, the red horses and speckled white ones are further explained as the extended mercies in Zec 1:16

Zec 6:5And the angel answered and said unto me, These are the four spirits of the heavens, which go forth from standing before the LORD of all the earth.

In Zec 6 The four spirits are further explained as the Branch and the building of the temple of God in Zec 6:12

It's the rejection of these four spirits that lead to the wrath of God. The rejection of the Holy Spirit(white), rejecting his sWord(red), rejecting righteous Judgement(black) and rejecting or rather fearing Death(pale). Of course, these go forth from the Lord and so you can't have any without Jesus.

The popular views have always been the ones to lead into a ditch. I'm not concerned with being popular.

Originally posted by iamnot
There are no mention of all 4 horses in Zec 1, I do see them in Zec 6 however. I still cannot see how you associate them with the wrath of God.

In Zechariah ch1 v8, he sees a man riding on a red horse, and behind that man are three further horses. That makes four.
The connection between the horses and the wrath of God is carefully explained in "4 Horsemen-why?"
In the first place, you are slightly missing the point of what is happening in Zechariah ch1. It helps to be conscious of the historical context.
The horses are the agents of God patrolling the earth, and they are reporting back that the earth "remains at rest".
But this is a situation which arouses the angel of the Lord to great indignation.
The angel is angry in the first instance because Jerusalem/Judah/Zion are not at rest.
But the point is that there is a connection between the two situations.
The peace of the rest of the world has come at the expense of the peace of Zion.
As the Lord then says "I am very angry with the nations that are at ease". Why? Because they have gained their ease by destroying the ease of Zion.

Then in ch6, the horses and chariots go out to reverse the situation. Specifically, one chariot is travelling to the north, which is where the trouble comes from (this is where it helps to know the historical context). That chariot is going to "make my spirit rest on" or "set my spirit at rest in" the north country. The first translation means the expression of his anger. The second translation implies that the Lord's Spirit has NOT been "at rest"; presumably this is because of his annoyance that the world was at peace while his own people were not. Then "putting his spirit at rest" would mean restoring his peace of mind by reversing the situation.

As I put it in the aforementioned thread, which you really should read sometime;

The situation of ch1 was;
Earth at rest
God's people not at rest
Therefore God's spirit not at rest

The achievement of ch6 would then be;
Rest of earth overturned
Rest of God's people (implicitly) restored
Therefore rest of God's spirit restored

Anyway, the gist of the message, either way, is that God is expressing his jealousy for his people by expressing his anger against, taking action against, the oppressors of his people.

Then really understanding the situation in Zechariah gives insight into what is happening in Revelation ch6.
In his wrath at the persecution of his people (responsible for the martyrs who are seen when the fifth seal is opened), God sends out his agents, as he did in Zechariah, to "overturn" the peace of the earth, as he did in Zechariah.

That is how one uses the Old Testament to explain Revelation. By fully understanding the Old Testament first.

Originally posted by iamnot
In Zec 6 The four spirits are further explained as the Branch and the building of the temple of God in Zec 6:12

No, that verse is talking about Joshua the son of Jehozadak, the high priest.
That portion of the chapter is a different message. The subject has changed.

reply to post by DISRAELI



Zec 1: 8I saw by night, and behold a man riding upon a red horse, and he stood among the myrtle trees that were in the bottom; and behind him were there red horses, speckled, and white.

I don't know what version you're using but that's KJV and there are no four horses. I think you knew that.

Why or how do you think the black and white horses have quieted the bay horses?

Originally posted by iamnot

The popular views have always been the ones to lead into a ditch.

I'd have to agree with this statement.

Verily.

reply to post by iamnot

There are four horses. It is clear from the wording that the man is "standing" among the trees at the same time as riding a red horse; that is, he is sitting on a horse and the horse is standing among the trees. Then the three horses behind him are additional to the one he is riding. I think you will find that the commentators read it that way. Matthew Henry certainly reads it that way. The Jerusalem Bible even translates it that way. But the reading is obvious enough even in the Authorised Version, if you take the trouble to read the whole verse. Where do you see in the text any indication that he had stopped riding at the time when he was "standing"? They are simultaneous.

reply to post by Alpha Arietis

Indeed, but you should note that I was not actually deriving my view from the popular view. In my original comments, I was arriving at a conclusion for argued reasons, and then observing in passing that the old popular view, on this occasion, happened to have got it right. The "popular" sneer actually cuts both ways, because in current Revelation interpretation "the first horse is Christ" or "the first horse is antichrist" are the popular answers. My interpretation is the one which is NOT currently popular.

Originally posted by iamnot
Why or how do you think the black and white horses have quieted the bay horses?

I was a little puzzled to know where you got this idea.
Do you think the "bay horse" is speaking in Zechariah ch6 v8?
No, that comes from the "angel of the Lord" who was speaking before, in v5. I've already explained that verse in my longer post yesterday.

I would advise you to do two things in your Bible interpretations.
Read the text more carefully, and compare your translation with other translations.
You are demonstrating that reading the text carelessly in an obscure translation leads to confusion.

reply to post by Alpha Arietis

I now add a link to this discussion of the first chapter of Revelation, which sets the tone for the whole book;Fear Not